Hello there from snowy Japan
I come from a surf sup and windsurf background and there is a lot of modularity between brands
as it just comes down to the fin / foil box

with winging it's great to see that the double US box is a firm standard but as for the foils themselves
every brand seems to be compatible only within that brand (except perhaps Slingshot )

I know the project Cedrus carbon mast has a lot of fuselage adapters but it's price is not within the range of a lot of us out here

I'm wondering where the industry will go as it seems right now that you are locked into the brand you currently use unless you can afford several foils

the brands that seem to have the most wing options appear to be:
armstrong
axis
go foil
naish
starboard

so at least if you are on board with them you can try out different wings

axis seems to be the most modular over all with masts fuselages and wings

I wonder what you all think about how we might be able to get everything to fit together to our foiling advantage (and for the sake of my poor little wallet ;) )

Somebody posted a link recently to a company based in Hawaii making fuse adapters based around the Armstrong masts. Looked but can't find it now... The aluminum versions seemed very reasonably priced considering the R&D / machine work involved. This sport is really quite cheap compared to say, anything involving a boat.

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Thatspec said..
Somebody posted a link recently to a company based in Hawaii making fuse adapters based around the Armstrong masts. Looked but can't find it now... The aluminum versions seemed very reasonably priced considering the R&D / machine work involved. This sport is really quite cheap compared to say, anything involving a boat.

alchemysurf.co
or
instagram.com/alchemyhawaii

There is no incentive to make parts interchange for the manufacturer. They want to lock you in.

Axis (which I do not own) is by far the most flexible and has the most options. Also the used market is very good since people move on to other wings and sometimes other brands so lots of parts available. GoFoil too seems to have a strong used market.

But no business in the world wants to make it so you can easily buy the competition's product over theirs. The best you can hope for is a universal mast with adapters.

About the cost. If you look at a Cedrus and adapters with used wings and tails it starts to make sense financially. Especially if you only surf or wing so you only need one mast and you compare to a carbon mast from any manufacturer.

i would also suggest to look at the number/variety of stabilizers offered by brands. these can really affect the ride and help you tune your foil to your style of riding. also, the ability to change stabilizer angle, while another parameter to deal with, can also fine tune your ride.

SABFOIL also offers a lot of front wings and stabilizers.

SABFOIL is also 90% compatible with the Slingshot Phantasm wings... fit is not perfect but close enough and there are people making it work.

I think Takuma and Naish aluminum were compatible b/w masts and fuselages for some time. Not sure if that's still the case.

Project Cedrus universal mast is nice option for those who want a super nice mast and glider options.

I'm riding the Cedrus 90cm mast with SABFOIL gliders mostly.

I live in a place with lots of used gear (Maui), it doesn't make sense to buy universal adaptor systems for $1000+ (USD), when used foil setups are cheaper than that. Also, unless you are interested in testing out gear from several brands, most folks seem happy riding the brand they have.

Thank goodness for a healthy used market and smart thinking foilers, I guess some locations are better served than others, as for the manufacturers locking us in, ultimately it's a disservice because it's a wall to newcomers who cannot afford to come onboard, maybe start out with the wrong gear and who become rapidly dissatisfied, though it's really great to see people making solutions we are a still a long ways from like picking up a surf board and a few fins

The Axis fuse to wing connection to me is the simplest / strongest , plus much easier to build the wing without a slip on internal connection like Armstrong , Takuma & Gofoil ect . It also makes doing protos much easier and faster , that's probably why Axis gets new design wings out so fast. Wouldn't it be great if the brands got together and at least a adopted the same fuse to wing mount , probably never happen but at least they could do is make the rears compatible . I think we'll see alot more companies like Cedrus & Alchemy start to bridge this gap.

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sultanofwing said..
Thank goodness for a healthy used market and smart thinking foilers, I guess some locations are better served than others, as for the manufacturers locking us in, ultimately it's a disservice because it's a wall to newcomers who cannot afford to come onboard, maybe start out with the wrong gear and who become rapidly dissatisfied, though it's really great to see people making solutions we are a still a long ways from like picking up a surf board and a few fins

Personally I think it can all get a bit confusing for the entry level & intermediates once you start mixing & matching everything. It's nice to just buy a set-up you know will work with minor tweaking to suit your style. You can then just mix & match withing the brands offerings & have reasonably good results. If you are advanced enough to want more than that then buy the Cedrus or other adapter systems.

This situation makes me think of the great sewing machine wars in the U.S. where all the different manufacturers formed a trust, pooled their patents and shared the profits

I really like the idea of the Cedrus mast but the mast/fuse adaptors make me a bit nervous.

I used a slingshot/moses adaptor for quite a while for kitefoiling in the early days, no issues whatsoever, but the front foil wasn't huge.

With ali adaptors, the space / materials in between the bolts seems pretty small, which surely gets a work out with the larger forces of the bigger wing foils. The Cedrus mast itself is obviously very strong and stiff, and light, but is the adaptor the weakest link?

I have both the Axis and the Naish adaptors for my 90cm Cedrus mast and have no worries about their strength. The Axis one fits perfect. Originally I had an older version of the Naish adaptor and it had some looseness when fitted in my S26 fuselage. I told Kyle and he redesigned and fabricated a new one for me (at no cost) and it's now super snugg.

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natho6026961 said..
but is the adaptor the weakest link?

They are CNC'd out of solid aluminum. An argument could easily be made that they are the strongest part of the system.

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sultanofwing said..
This situation makes me think of the great sewing machine wars in the U.S. where all the different manufacturers formed a trust, pooled their patents and shared the profits

Interesting...being sailmakers

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surfcowboy said..

natho6026961 said..
but is the adaptor the weakest link?

They are CNC'd out of solid aluminum. An argument could easily be made that they are the strongest part of the system.

Unless you are Kyle Lobisser I'm not sure how you could make that argument.

I've since been reading their website and FB page and the inventor/owner has done a shi'tload of work over the years into the design and made improvements over time. Finite element analysis of all the components, even including the adapters later on. Very impressive. I take back any doubts I had over the current system

If I end up needing a longer mast than my sabfoil m82 I'll probably get one. Luckily they ship to Aus

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surfcowboy said..
There is no incentive to make parts interchange for the manufacturer. They want to lock you in.

This is possibly true, but also self defeating as it limits the accessibility of the gear and therefore the market potential.

Foiling gear will hopefully align on accepted standard interfaces. Once xx% of the market agrees on a standard, any slower brand will suffer from incompatibility. Are there any mature board sports that haven't entirely aligned on a few reasonable standards for interfacing various components?

High performance gear maybe won't accept the compromises, but for the average hacker, it will be well worth it to avoid vendor lock-in. Obviously manufacturers/designers will grumble, but the market will vote.

This simplifies it for entry level (don't worry it all fits), mid-high level (you can mix and match more cheaply, work towards performance, don't get stuck on an older model fuse) and only professional level will need to more carefully assess compromised interfaces.

More than anything, it allows specialists (ie cedrus) to focus on the component that they can best improve, without needing to build a complete foil package.

Obviously this is tricky when everything is so expensive, but the independent talented riders seem to be doing a good job of mixing and matching.

In terms of specific interfaces:

1. Seemingly the most important to develop is the mast to fuse, as this is where cedrus, no limits etc are having to do extensive engineering to cover the brands.

2. Mast to board is pretty standard, and uncomplicated

3. Tail to fuse adaptors seem to be maturing, with generally 3rd party tails being compatible enough to have a small market.

4. Wing to Fuse is probably quite a way from any kind of standard, and is too use-case dependent for a reasonable standard to develop, especially with all the wing/tail angles and coherent system design.

Would really appreciate any thoughts from someone who actually knows something about the above!

Another route, companies like Project Cedrus or NoLimitz end up making fuselages.... make their mast universal by offering fuselages for different brands.

CNC aluminum fuselages are pretty simple to design/make, and people who might want to mix and match foil brands usually will need a complete glider anyway, so maybe a universal mast to fuselage connection by way of aftermarket mast and fuse set is the way to go.

Here is a breakdown of the various methods.

Most apparent is the "slot into fuse" used by 6 of the 9 brands here. If they could just agree on a spec I think 95% of the mast/fuse problem would be solved (7 if Takuma adhered to the same bolt spacing)




Masts from NoLimitz and Cedrus seem to cover most of the below, save for Armstrong, Unifoil?
www.nolimitz.com/foilmasts
projectcedrus.com/compatibility/

It seems that really any brand should move from a large integrated rear tail section fuse + tail to just a flat tail plate? So much extra carbon when only the tail changes between them. In the meantime, foilparts.com seem to cover most of the tails, creating a flat version, though hopefully becomes unecessary www.foilparts.com/shop

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sunsetsailboards said..
Another route, companies like Project Cedrus or NoLimitz end up making fuselages.... make their mast universal by offering fuselages for different brands.

CNC aluminum fuselages are pretty simple to design/make, and people who might want to mix and match foil brands usually will need a complete glider anyway, so maybe a universal mast to fuselage connection by way of aftermarket mast and fuse set is the way to go.

The Cedrus model makes more sense since you have a mast with a universal head on it, and buy adapters for each brand (one variable to change). The NoLimitz situation is more screwy since you are buying a mast with a brand-specific head, and then have to make adapters from one brand to another (two variables to change). Ive heard rumors that NoLimitz is going to move towards a universal head, but I cant vouch for the reliability of that info.

Seeing as how popular the Takuma Kujira design has proved it would be great if they made this set of foils to fit each brand's fuselage

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sultanofwing said..
Seeing as how popular the Takuma Kujira design has proved it would be great if they made this set of foils to fit each brand's fuselage

And there is the problem, Takuma is almost unheard of in Oz and with the one importer I found, quite expensive. You will never get all brands to agree on one system as people will just go for the cheaper brand wings and the more expensive brands would loose out.

Our sport is rapidly evolving. People are hitting speeds, and reaching heights that were not imaginable just a year ago. Agreeing to a universal standard would be horrible for our sport. The loads and demands we are putting on the gear are constantly increasing. We don't know what will work best going forward because we don't even know where we are going. So to settle on a universal design would limit the growth of our sport.

I would hate to think of a future where I need a rubber mallet or power tools to rig up or break down. Many brands are still so very primitive. Trying to go down to the lowest common denominator is the wrong move.

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Velocicraptor said..

sunsetsailboards said..
Another route, companies like Project Cedrus or NoLimitz end up making fuselages.... make their mast universal by offering fuselages for different brands.

CNC aluminum fuselages are pretty simple to design/make, and people who might want to mix and match foil brands usually will need a complete glider anyway, so maybe a universal mast to fuselage connection by way of aftermarket mast and fuse set is the way to go.

The Cedrus model makes more sense since you have a mast with a universal head on it, and buy adapters for each brand (one variable to change). The NoLimitz situation is more screwy since you are buying a mast with a brand-specific head, and then have to make adapters from one brand to another (two variables to change). Ive heard rumors that NoLimitz is going to move towards a universal head, but I cant vouch for the reliability of that info.

I have a PC mast and like it. However, instead of swapping out adapters every time I wanted to use a different foil set, I'd rather just have complete gliders that I could bolt onto the same mast without having to change out the adapter too, so I like the aftermarket fuselage route. YMMV

I've been petitioning NL to make a modular system and/or makes different fuselages that fit a particular platform.

I may be in the minority, but I have four glider sets in the back of my van... would be great if they all bolted onto the same mast:

SAB W1000/S400 with the legacy FK647 fuselage
SAB W940/S370 with the Kraken F703K fuselage
Slingshot PTM 926
Fanatic Aero 1000/216 w/ carbon 680mm fuselage

four different mast to fuselage connections... would be great if that were unified somehow.

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Goofcat said..
We don't know what will work best going forward because we don't even know where we are going.
...
Trying to go down to the lowest common denominator is the wrong move.

Yes good point, severe compromise wouldn't be good, but at some point it becomes the right move. It just requires some coordination and market pressure to get there sooner.

Interesting conversation with Brodie who designed the Cabrinha H800, which seemingly has been well thought out, especially the mast/fuse:
podtail.com/en/podcast/the-progression-project/brodie-sutherland-designer-of-cabrinha-foils/
24:00 - Having modularity is worth it over the minor performance losses, price point vs performance
25:00 - Brodie doesn't think we'll see such exponential changes from here - focus on the fuse/mast connection as is the most important connection.
52:30 - Foils need to get stronger, loads are way higher than they were originally designed for (breaking masts etc)

This isn't in impossible problem - I reckon we'll see the brands that have similar connections align first.

Side note:
"The United States standard railroad gauge of 4 feet, 8 1/2 inches derives from the original specification for an Imperial Roman army war chariot" - the story gets even better in the link: astrodigital.org/space/stshorse.html
Great example of a specification that is compromised, flawed, and arbitrary, and yet we still made it to the moon.

The unifoil/ cabrinha approach makes the foil clumsy to pack. Basically instead of having rectangles you now have large equilateral triangles. Imagine having to travel with a 3 or 4 foil quiver, all with 80% of the fuse sticking out of them.

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Goofcat said..
The unifoil/ cabrinha approach makes the foil clumsy to pack. Basically instead of having rectangles you now have large equilateral triangles. Imagine having to travel with a 3 or 4 foil quiver, all with 80% of the fuse sticking out of them.

Interesting. Cabrinha having full fuse+tails also means you have multiple of the the same functional element, 3 pairs of tail/wing means in effect 3 fuses? (Unifoil not as much due to the normal tail)

This pretty neatly describes the paradox that designers face

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sultanofwing said..
Seeing as how popular the Takuma Kujira design has proved it would be great if they made this set of foils to fit each brand's fuselage

Quite a few people have made custom adapters to Takuma fuselages, I made some for Axis and Neil Pryde to Takuma and Axis to Naish. I prefer the type of connection style used by Axis and the extra stiffness of the 19mm mast so that's all I use now. The Axis system put all the load on the doodad instead of the screws, which makes the screws much less likely to back out. Also Axis masts and baseplates are half the price of many other brands, at least in the US.

If I could make adapters between all the common foil systems and not lose money at it, I would, but foils and machining are expensive, and it's hard to keep up with all the design changes. I did have some extra Axis 19mm to Takuma adapters made though - www.facebook.com/SurfElementals/shop/

Further similarities on front wing mounts across these 3.

Of everything, flat tail mounts allowing for interchange seems the easiest compromise.

North makes the case for top mounting tails here )

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natho6026961 said..

surfcowboy said..

natho6026961 said..
but is the adaptor the weakest link?

They are CNC'd out of solid aluminum. An argument could easily be made that they are the strongest part of the system.

Unless you are Kyle Lobisser I'm not sure how you could make that argument.

I've since been reading their website and FB page and the inventor/owner has done a shi'tload of work over the years into the design and made improvements over time. Finite element analysis of all the components, even including the adapters later on. Very impressive. I take back any doubts I had over the current system

If I end up needing a longer mast than my sabfoil m82 I'll probably get one. Luckily they ship to Aus

The adapter being strong or not strong is not a question. The problem with the adapters is that a universal mast + various adapters solution still inherits all the shortcomings that the original fuselage to mast connection has. Let's keep the brands innovating and finding out what works and what can be realistically made, instead of pushing them towards a fixed one-design class.