i'm about 90 kgs and have a low end of about 15.5 knots with a midlength Omen Flux 72L board and 6M wing. if i use an 8m wing, my low end only drops to 15 knots so IMO it's not worth winging with a wing that big. Most of my friends are closer to 65-75 KGs, and they can go on their midlengths down to about 11 knots. (I've tried a bigger DW board, but just don't like them and found similar low end threshold).

Anyway, is rider weight really the defining factor in our respective low end thresholds, or is it more technique? if the latter, any ideas on what i'm doing wrong? i know board characteristics, front wing sizes, etc contribute, but i find when using all types of hand wings, if it's under 15.5 knots, i just don't feel any pull in the wing itself and it may as well be dead calm.

There is quite a bit of technique involved, but the gear selection and dimensions are equally important. With a board that floats you well you could generate more board speed, and as the speed increases so does the apparent wind speed in your wing. By holding a wing more vertical you can move yourself forward with every scoop. At first you don't feel much power in the wing, but as the speed increases the wing starts working more and more.



I posted a longer clip of that day in another thread yesterday: www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Wing-Foiling/Wind-Wings/Lightwind-winging

maybe weight is a factor but I would think with the right foil. I'm 63kgs now and with a very lifty front foil I can get out in 6-8 ish (according to weather charts / no gps) if the wind is constant otherwise it's not fun getting up and waiting for the next gust. It just seems to get easier the more you go out.

All the common variables matter for the gear, that is pretty well understood and I don't think you are going to be an exception from the physics involved. Technique of course matters too.

It looks like you understand the variables on gear, and if you want to get up in lighter conditions, I think you not only need to "try" the obvious options, but commit to them, learn how to make them work, and accept the compromises involved (a downwind board and a big lifty foil (SAB Leviathan 1350) made a HUGE difference for me, but took some real work to make that happen and that foil does not like to turn, but I'm getting way more days on foil).

For technique, I think Gwen LaTutor has some of the best instructional videos on getting up in light wind.

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beached57 said..
i'm about 90 kgs and have a low end of about 15.5 knots with a midlength Omen Flux 72L board and 6M wing. if i use an 8m wing, my low end only drops to 15 knots so IMO it's not worth winging with a wing that big. Most of my friends are closer to 65-75 KGs, and they can go on their midlengths down to about 11 knots. (I've tried a bigger DW board, but just don't like them and found similar low end threshold).

Anyway, is rider weight really the defining factor in our respective low end thresholds, or is it more technique? if the latter, any ideas on what i'm doing wrong? i know board characteristics, front wing sizes, etc contribute, but i find when using all types of hand wings, if it's under 15.5 knots, i just don't feel any pull in the wing itself and it may as well be dead calm.

If you're 90kg using a 72l board and not finding hardly any gains in a downwind board I'd say that something is off in your technique. For reference, I'm 86kg and with a 111l 8'x21" barracuda I was using a 3.5m with an 850cm^2 foil at 15 knots and if I wanted to fight for it I could use a 3.5m at that windspeed. Once the wind hit 20 knots I was always on a 2.5m and my foil size reached as low as 550 depending on windspeed.

Right now my biggest wing is a 5m and I only pull it out when I'm using a 65l board and a 1050 foil in winds down towards 10-12 knots.

What foil and 6m wing are you using?

For technique: Make sure you are working with the swell and using it to assist your lightwind takeoffs, just like a supfoiler would do.

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BWalnut said..

What foil and 6m wing are you using?

i've used a variety of boards, foil wings and hand wings, so i don't think the problem lies there. for me, the problem is always the same regardless of my gear: a complete lack of pull in my hand wing if it's below 15 knots. i can't even kneel on my boards with wing overhead to get back to shore, i have to swim in. it's as though the wind gods are covering my wing with their hands. Even though that sounds crazy, it's my only explanation to date.

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beached57 said..

BWalnut said..

What foil and 6m wing are you using?

i've used a variety of boards, foil wings and hand wings, so i don't think the problem lies there. for me, the problem is always the same regardless of my gear: a complete lack of pull in my hand wing if it's below 15 knots. i can't even kneel on my boards with wing overhead to get back to shore, i have to swim in. it's as though the wind gods are covering my wing with their hands. Even though that sounds crazy, it's my only explanation to date.

Something does sound off, even if it's not enough to get on foil you should be feeling power in a 5m+ wing as 10-12 kts. Since you've tried different wings it's not that. I'd carefully examine how you are holding the wing. Both hand placement on the wing, and how you are placing the wing compared to the wind.

If your friends are user larger boards for their bodyweight that would certainly help them, but you say a larger downwind board didn't help you much which doesn't make sense. That's why I'm guessing wing technique. Do you have any sailing/wind sports experience before winging? It seems that makes a big difference as far as what part of winging people find the most challenging to learn.

What are your water conditions like? Something that is waaay to often ignored / not talked about is water surface conditions. The "lack of pressure" in the wing becomes exponentially problematic as soon as there is chop involved. My spot is almost always choppy and wavey, as soon as it starts blowing 11 knots, it's a mess (often onshore winds, current, and it's overall quite shallow at 1.7m for miles, so the energy has nowhere to go but to the surface). In chop, you just need decent pressure in your wing to get up and keep your balance long enough to build speed and get going. In these choppy conditions on a +10L midlength, I have stopped trying under 12 knots, just too much hassle/rodeo. In flat protected waters my low end take off increases significantly, as it is so much easier to remain balanced and keep the board pointing at the right direction/course without chop slowing it down or pushing too much downwind taking any pressure out of the wing. In low wind, keeping the right course to build speed without going too far downwind / lose pressure in the wing is key.

That all being said, time on the water in these tricky conditions will still help you improve your skills, and muscle memory will increase to help you drop your low end to 12ish knots, which is when most wings should start generating some pull to build speed and get up on foil with the right gear, without having to be a pro or have perfect water conditions.

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kook123 said..
All the common variables matter for the gear, that is pretty well understood and I don't think you are going to be an exception from the physics involved. Technique of course matters too.

It looks like you understand the variables on gear, and if you want to get up in lighter conditions, I think you not only need to "try" the obvious options, but commit to them, learn how to make them work, and accept the compromises involved (a downwind board and a big lifty foil (SAB Leviathan 1350) made a HUGE difference for me, but took some real work to make that happen and that foil does not like to turn, but I'm getting way more days on foil).

For technique, I think Gwen LaTutor has some of the best instructional videos on getting up in light wind.

1360 is great for light wind winging. 1350 more for pumping. But 1360 you can pump too more speed.

I am 74kg and foil friend is 110kg no wetsuits etc.
We both have the same gear for light wind ie, 8ft 11in x 17.25 in Armstrong DW boards, 1750 Duotone AMP foils however, he has 8m Ventis and I have 7m.
We both foil from 5kn breeze on flat lake water, he jybes consistently and I get 50% and improving.

I'm around 100kg+ with wetsuit etc. and using the 84l Omen Flux. Using 880 and 1180 armstrong HA foils and wings up to 8m. My really low end on flat water is roughly an 8kn gust of 5 seconds to get onto foil with the 1180 and 8m wing. It's not pretty, and my heart rate gets high as it's probably a 30+ second effort from start-to-finish (stinkbug, then balancing on knees with massive wing waiting for the gust to hit, then standing up and pumping like crazy for 5-10 sec, then another 10 sec of nursing the board/foil to make sure i stay up). Ocean water if it's choppy can easily add an extra 2-3kn of wind needed.

If it's a steady 10kn then i have no issues with either the 8m or 6.5m and 1180.

The 2 things that stand out to me are:
1. If you're 90kg, does that include wetsuit etc. If not, once you're in the water, a wetsuit/vest/etc. could add another 5+kg which makes things that much harder on the 72l board. (thanks to a BWalnut comment i decided to weigh my wetgear and was surprised how heavy it was!)
2. For sure you should be feeling some pull in your wings under 15kn. Maybe the wings are really bagged out or under-inflated? Or it's technique? One thing i started doing, is before doing any big pumps with the wing, i do a bunch of small mini backhand-only pumps to feel when the wing is starting to get powered up and also to build a little bit of forward board speed before committing to wing pumping with both arms and some board pumping.

Getting someone to video you helps a lot to see what might be going on.

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beached57 said..

BWalnut said..

What foil and 6m wing are you using?

i've used a variety of boards, foil wings and hand wings, so i don't think the problem lies there. for me, the problem is always the same regardless of my gear: a complete lack of pull in my hand wing if it's below 15 knots. i can't even kneel on my boards with wing overhead to get back to shore, i have to swim in. it's as though the wind gods are covering my wing with their hands. Even though that sounds crazy, it's my only explanation to date.

Are you winging at an alpine lake? High elevation and fresh water will sap your power... I'm 90kg and 15 knots of dense Pacific Ocean wind and buoyant salt water would have me on a 4.5m. I break out the 5.5 and downwind 8' board for those 8-15 knot days using same foil... If you truely need an 8m wing then you'd be needing a large foil and large board. I'd say for my conditions that typically do not have steady wind until it is at least 15, the 72ltr Omen would be my good wind board and I wouldn't bother going out unless I knew the 4.5 was going to be more than enough. If the water has glassy stripes, it aint no 15 knots. What your are describing is 6-10mph that makes you think it's doable, especially if you stare at it long enough! 6-10 with an 8m and 120l downwind board and big foil is possible, but not on your Omen.

I'm on an 84L Omen at 100kg and I can get up in 12-13 knots with my 5.5m 2025 Duotone Unit with a 1300 sq cm foil. On my 60L Omen, I need about 16 plus. The Units have a lot of low end power. I'm thinking you need to go downwind a little bit more when the gust comes and do short little pumps on your knees until you start planing. Then stand and keep the pump going. Put your feet closer together in the middle of the board so you're not dragging the back of the semi sinker. Then give a slight kick of the back foot and level up on foil. It also helps me to put the foil back a little bit so the board doesn't come up too quickly and stall or plop back down. These are great boards and the more you use them, the more little tricks you find to get them up. A favorite of mine is to kick up when I nose into a wave. Then when the wave passes, the board is naturally out of the water.

I'm on an 84L Omen at 100kg and I can get up in 12-13 knots with my 5.5m 2025 Duotone Unit with a 1300 sq cm foil. On my 60L Omen, I need about 16 plus. The Units have a lot of low end power. I'm thinking you need to go downwind a little bit more when the gust comes and do short little pumps on your knees until you start planing. Then stand and keep the pump going. Put your feet closer together in the middle of the board so you're not dragging the back of the semi sinker. Then give a slight kick of the back foot and level up on foil. It also helps me to put the foil back a little bit so the board doesn't come up too quickly and stall or plop back down. These are great boards and the more you use them, the more little tricks you find to get them up. A favorite of mine is to kick up when I nose into a wave. Then when the wave passes, the board is naturally out of the water.

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beached57 said..
i can't even kneel on my boards with wing overhead to get back to shore, i have to swim in.

There's your problem. Don't hold the wing overhead, hold it as a sail (more vertically), so it could actually move you. The skills are easier to learn with a board that floats you, and with a smaller wing.

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Taavi said..

beached57 said..
i can't even kneel on my boards with wing overhead to get back to shore, i have to swim in.

There's your problem. Don't hold the wing overhead, hold it as a sail (more vertically), so it could actually move you. The skills are easier to learn with a board that floats you, and with a smaller wing.

Your technique is impressive. What I can not clearly tell from your clip: when pumping, do you hold your wing in a 45 degree angle in front of your body or is it more to the nose of the board?

thx for comments above. i will work on some of the tips. oddly, i started windsurfing in the early 90s, and doing what everyone else has been doing since, so i'm no stranger to wind sports. it's just this winging thing that has me slightly perplexed. once i'm up, i'm riding/flagging in the waves and believe i'm a reasonable winger. i ride ocean conditions, often quite turbulent waters...but so are my buddies who don't have same prob i do. my shoulder replacement surgery 10 years ago probably hasn't helped, but again, that shouldn't affect my sense of lack of power in the wing (though certainly detrimental to creating the power).

I'm 120kg and can get going in 10 kts with a high volume board 155L and a 6.8 wing and big foil with all the crew I sail with I'm out on foil as much as the light guy's
Technique is a fair bit but the right equipment is a must and with both your definitely in the light wind game no matter your weight

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pacoz said..

Your technique is impressive. What I can not clearly tell from your clip: when pumping, do you hold your wing in a 45 degree angle in front of your body or is it more to the nose of the board?

@pacoz. Thanks. Here is another view. This one is with plenty of wind, but the body mechanics in lighter wind is pretty similar.

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Taavi said..

pacoz said..

Your technique is impressive. What I can not clearly tell from your clip: when pumping, do you hold your wing in a 45 degree angle in front of your body or is it more to the nose of the board?

@pacoz. Thanks. Here is another view. This one is with plenty of wind, but the body mechanics in lighter wind is pretty similar.

I'm still trying to learn the board & wing pump together and find the timing a bit tricky. Am I correct that as you start pulling in on the hand wing you're lifting your weight off the front foot to take weight off the board? And as you're pushing the wing away you're weighting the back foot to pop the nose and increase the angle of attack?

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dieseagull said..

Taavi said..

pacoz said..

Your technique is impressive. What I can not clearly tell from your clip: when pumping, do you hold your wing in a 45 degree angle in front of your body or is it more to the nose of the board?

@pacoz. Thanks. Here is another view. This one is with plenty of wind, but the body mechanics in lighter wind is pretty similar.

I'm still trying to learn the board & wing pump together and find the timing a bit tricky. Am I correct that as you start pulling in on the hand wing you're lifting your weight off the front foot to take weight off the board? And as you're pushing the wing away you're weighting the back foot to pop the nose and increase the angle of attack?

Detailled video here . and part 2

(Don't know if anyone is still on this thread - just my 2 cents)

Like others have suggested, it seems that board volume is one limiting factor.

Trying to accelerate a semi-sinker board from a kneeling position, before standing, becomes impractical in light winds, b/c you can't lift the wing high-, and vertical-, enough to catch the wind, no matter what size wing you're using. Interestingly, like yourself, I also find the threshold at about 15kts for my 59L board with my 72kg weight (+/-2kts considering waves, chop, turbulence, etc.)

A larger board (volume equal, or +10/+20L greater, than rider weight in kg) would allow you to stand up earlier and pump more effectively. Perhaps you will find a mid-length more appealing, if not a DW.

I would also recommend a larger wing. In lighter conditions, folks around here are using 7 - 8m. Once you're standing, a big wing is manageable and will only help with the lighter wind range.

- S.