Hey,
I have completed three wing-foil sessions now, and I am pretty frustrated- I haven't managed to get the board out of the water yet, let alone flying with speed. I am an intermediate level windsurfer, and I am pretty comfortable wind foiling on IQ Foil setup. I have a SMIK 90 liter, 5'0 board, an old slingshot alloy kit- manta front wing, a 4m wing and I weigh 71kg. It feels like when I am moving in a gust, no matter how much power I have in the wing, I can't get the board to foiling speed, let alone get the board flying. I have had one session on entry level learner gear (5'11, 125 liter naish board, naish front wing, 3.5 wing) on this session (22kts) I got up easily and was foiling comfortably in 10 mins. Do I need to invest in a better foil (considering Axis HPS 980) a bigger board or do I just need to get more sessions in and get better technique. Just super frustrated as I foiled straight away, invested in gear, and now I can't even get the board flying. Any help is greatly appreciated!

That's not a good beginner board - much smaller and shorter than the one that worked for you, so it won't reach the same speed on the water. How much wind did you have?

Sounds like the older Slingshot foil isn't playing nice with the board you have. In any case you are going to want to change that foil out for a better one very soon even if you weren't having trouble with it.
You can try checking the foil fuselage and deck are parallel and if they are not shim it until they are form starters.
With your previous experience Windfoiling and with beginner kit you should have no trouble getting going. I don't remember how big the Slingshot Manta foil is but if it's the 68 that also won't make life easy.
the 76 and 84 are good for starting out

Have you tried moving the foil forward in the box?

The board and wing are too small for the wind strength you are trying to use them in, go out in stronger wind.

The board is more than enough for you weight given your background.

the foil size and positioning are likely the issue.

4m sail will require at least 15 knots till you learn to pump the board off the water.

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boardsurfr said..
That's not a good beginner board - much smaller and shorter than the one that worked for you, so it won't reach the same speed on the water. How much wind did you have?

with the smik board, I have gone in 15kts and 20kts. It feels like I can't get the board to foiling speed, even though I have an insane amount of pressure on the wing, it doesn't translate to speed or lift.

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airsail said..
The board and wing are too small for the wind strength you are trying to use them in, go out in stronger wind.

20-25kts maybe?

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Velocicraptor said..
Have you tried moving the foil forward in the box?

No, I will try that though. What will it do?

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AUS220 said..

boardsurfr said..
That's not a good beginner board - much smaller and shorter than the one that worked for you, so it won't reach the same speed on the water. How much wind did you have?

with the smik board, I have gone in 15kts and 20kts. It feels like I can't get the board to foiling speed, even though I have an insane amount of pressure on the wing, it doesn't translate to speed or lift.

I had one session where I was struggling and realized I didn't pump my wing up hard enough. Solved the problem by getting a pump with a gauge

What's the Slingshot foil? Don't be discouraged by those who believe everything has to look all modern and the same - the old Infinity is still an amazing lifty foil at low speeds so if its that (as you sorta imply) I would not think its the issue. The board is tons smaller and if is the one with the big tail bevel its a bit draggy (look at your IQ and slalom boards tail - water release). You know the feeling from windfoiling and previous winging - its draggy bogging down.
If you are not getting to a speed where you can lift, a $3000 foil ain't gonna help. More board (better board) and/or more wind.
I have a 95L proto that is a very early lifter, you can borrow during the week to see if the volume is still ok or if you need to be going back up to that 125L kinda area.

Mark
MOzCustoms

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515 said..

AUS220 said..

boardsurfr said..
That's not a good beginner board - much smaller and shorter than the one that worked for you, so it won't reach the same speed on the water. How much wind did you have?

with the smik board, I have gone in 15kts and 20kts. It feels like I can't get the board to foiling speed, even though I have an insane amount of pressure on the wing, it doesn't translate to speed or lift.

I had one session where I was struggling and realized I didn't pump my wing up hard enough. Solved the problem by getting a pump with a gauge

I do have a gauge, the wing had the right air pressure, I meant the load in the wing from the wind strength

Thanks for everyone's advice, I will try a few of these suggestions- foil forward in box, more wind etc.
I will eventually invest in a new foil, but until then I will keep trying with what I have got.

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AUS220 said..
with the smik board, I have gone in 15kts and 20kts. It feels like I can't get the board to foiling speed, even though I have an insane amount of pressure on the wing, it doesn't translate to speed or lift.
( I have a SMIK 90 liter, 5'0 board, an old slingshot alloy kit- manta front wing, a 4m wing and I weigh 71kg)

15 knots may be a bit borderline for a beginner your weight with a 4.0, but 20 knots should be plenty. So most likely, the trim is wrong, with the foil too far back. Chances are that you have to move the foil all the way to the front of the track. Here's a diagram with a current Smik board and a Manta 84 foil to illustrate:

You want to stand so that your back foot is behind the front wing, and the front foot in front of it, at about the same distance. The gree box shows where your feet would be on the board. Chances are that your foil is further back, and that you are standing further forward. That prevents the foil from ever creating enough lift.

For your setup, also check the distance between the mast and the back edge of the front wing. Many Slingshot fuselages allow different positions (A, B, and C). In the A position, the front wing is right on top of the mast. That works only for kiting. The B position is shown, and has a few centimeters of space. The C position moves the front wing even further forward. If your fuselage has all three position options, you could try the C position, too.

Did you put the tail on right? I've seen people mount Slingshot tails to the wrong side of the fuse!

I started Winging with an Infinity 76. The fuselage was for windfoiling, so a bit long for winging. It took a lot of wind to get up on the foil and the winds were light when I was learning, so I spent several days slogging and trying to pump up.

I saw Takuma announce the Helium foil set (back in 2021) and a local shop had pre-orders open, so I placed and order and was lucky to get one several weeks before the actual release. The difference was like night and day, but it still wasn't trivial to get on the foil in light winds. It takes time to learn the technique (at least for me). Ideally, you learn winging in moderate winds (wasting perfectly good windsurfing days), but as you progress, your low wind range starts to extend quite a bit.

I tried the Slingshot again a year later (or was it two?) and had a horrible time with it. I'm quite sure I had the stab the right way, but I think the long fuselage just fights your ability to pump the foil properly and it's quite possible that either or both the base and the stab needed shimming. I am trying to sell my Slingshot sets, but understandably, there's not much interest anymore. Given infinite time and energy, I think I would be curious enough to try to get the Slingshot to work a bit better.

I think ideally, a beginner would learn on kit that was designed to work as a package. The wing doesn't matter much, but the foil and the board should have the right geometry to work together. As a beginner, you don't have the experience to tell if the problem is your skill or if it's something in the gear that you could adjust. Even as an intermediate, it's not easy... I had a Tabou Magic Carpet (110) as my first board and found that it lifts a lot better if the Helium is slightly towards the back of the foil box. Somehow it just unsticks the tail much better that way. I also have a Fanatic Sky Wing (5'2") and on that board, the middle of the track worked just great. I have only had one short session on the Gong Cruzader Diamond (6'0"), so can't say much except that it didn't feel in tune right out of the box, but was better after I moved the mast a bit forward (and then the wind died).

Maybe you can ask someone more experienced to try your kit to try to figure out if it can be tuned better? They'll probably feel like it's horrible. That's how I feel when I try pretty much anyone else's windsurfing gear (especially beginners).

Gear can make progression a lot easier, but I can understand trying to start on a limited budget. Good luck & don't give up.

Way back, I had the same problem getting up on the foil, even with a lage foil wing and windwing.
I had an experienced guy have a try, and he found it almost impossible however, managed some flight.
Looking at the design of the board, which was made for SUP foiling, the underside had a concave to fat round rails.
I tried his board, which was pretty much flat and got foiling.
We arrived at the conclusion that my board with the long concave sucked to the water.

I windsurf foiled with a SS Infinity 76 for 2 years and loved it. Then took up winging. I could not get the 76 to foil even though I was using a large 140 litre board. Borrowed an old Axis foil 1400cm2 (Infinity 76 is 1500cm2) and was up and foiling using a 4m wing. My weight 67kg. IMO, the low aspect foils are not best for winging. With good technique they will work but mid-high aspect is better, less drag so more board speed which helps to get the foil to lift. Board volume of 100-110L would be ideal for you at this stage. But the SMIK board might be OK if using a foil like the HPS980. I use HPS880, it's a good all-rounder. Is it possible for you to try the SS foil on the 125L Naish board and/or try the Naish foil on the SMIK?

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Mark _australia said..
What's the Slingshot foil? Don't be discouraged by those who believe everything has to look all modern and the same - the old Infinity is still an amazing lifty foil at low speeds so if its that (as you sorta imply) I would not think its the issue. The board is tons smaller and if is the one with the big tail bevel its a bit draggy (look at your IQ and slalom boards tail - water release). You know the feeling from windfoiling and previous winging - its draggy bogging down.
If you are not getting to a speed where you can lift, a $3000 foil ain't gonna help. More board (better board) and/or more wind.
I have a 95L proto that is a very early lifter, you can borrow during the week to see if the volume is still ok or if you need to be going back up to that 125L kinda area.

Mark
MOzCustoms

Hey Mark,
The foil is a Manta 76.
The board doesn't have a bevel.
I am going to experiment with some other advice listed in this forum, and potentially borrow the learner board again.
Thanks heaps for the offer though, I appreciate it

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boardsurfr said..

AUS220 said..
with the smik board, I have gone in 15kts and 20kts. It feels like I can't get the board to foiling speed, even though I have an insane amount of pressure on the wing, it doesn't translate to speed or lift.
( I have a SMIK 90 liter, 5'0 board, an old slingshot alloy kit- manta front wing, a 4m wing and I weigh 71kg)

15 knots may be a bit borderline for a beginner your weight with a 4.0, but 20 knots should be plenty. So most likely, the trim is wrong, with the foil too far back. Chances are that you have to move the foil all the way to the front of the track. Here's a diagram with a current Smik board and a Manta 84 foil to illustrate:

You want to stand so that your back foot is behind the front wing, and the front foot in front of it, at about the same distance. The gree box shows where your feet would be on the board. Chances are that your foil is further back, and that you are standing further forward. That prevents the foil from ever creating enough lift.

For your setup, also check the distance between the mast and the back edge of the front wing. Many Slingshot fuselages allow different positions (A, B, and C). In the A position, the front wing is right on top of the mast. That works only for kiting. The B position is shown, and has a few centimeters of space. The C position moves the front wing even further forward. If your fuselage has all three position options, you could try the C position, too.

Thanks heaps, this reply has essential info for me!
my foil was pretty much all the way the back
My front wing is in the A "kiting" position
I will try new configurations and hopefully get a more experienced rider to have a go and give feedback
this helped a lot, cheers!

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JuriM said..
I started Winging with an Infinity 76. The fuselage was for windfoiling, so a bit long for winging. It took a lot of wind to get up on the foil and the winds were light when I was learning, so I spent several days slogging and trying to pump up.

I saw Takuma announce the Helium foil set (back in 2021) and a local shop had pre-orders open, so I placed and order and was lucky to get one several weeks before the actual release. The difference was like night and day, but it still wasn't trivial to get on the foil in light winds. It takes time to learn the technique (at least for me). Ideally, you learn winging in moderate winds (wasting perfectly good windsurfing days), but as you progress, your low wind range starts to extend quite a bit.

I tried the Slingshot again a year later (or was it two?) and had a horrible time with it. I'm quite sure I had the stab the right way, but I think the long fuselage just fights your ability to pump the foil properly and it's quite possible that either or both the base and the stab needed shimming. I am trying to sell my Slingshot sets, but understandably, there's not much interest anymore. Given infinite time and energy, I think I would be curious enough to try to get the Slingshot to work a bit better.

I think ideally, a beginner would learn on kit that was designed to work as a package. The wing doesn't matter much, but the foil and the board should have the right geometry to work together. As a beginner, you don't have the experience to tell if the problem is your skill or if it's something in the gear that you could adjust. Even as an intermediate, it's not easy... I had a Tabou Magic Carpet (110) as my first board and found that it lifts a lot better if the Helium is slightly towards the back of the foil box. Somehow it just unsticks the tail much better that way. I also have a Fanatic Sky Wing (5'2") and on that board, the middle of the track worked just great. I have only had one short session on the Gong Cruzader Diamond (6'0"), so can't say much except that it didn't feel in tune right out of the box, but was better after I moved the mast a bit forward (and then the wind died).

Maybe you can ask someone more experienced to try your kit to try to figure out if it can be tuned better? They'll probably feel like it's horrible. That's how I feel when I try pretty much anyone else's windsurfing gear (especially beginners).

Gear can make progression a lot easier, but I can understand trying to start on a limited budget. Good luck & don't give up.

Thanks heaps, I will get a more experienced rider to test my gear and try and find some issues I can fix

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AUS220 said..
my foil was pretty much all the way the back
My front wing is in the A "kiting" position

So you must have been standing with both feet in front of the front wing. No way you could possibly foil like that, not even totally overpowered.

The 76 is a good wing to get started on. The length of the fuse does not matter much at the start; I and many others have started out winging with long fuses. But if got your foil from a kiter, it's probably shorter (which is ok to start, and better once you advance). Hope you got all the bolts and parts you need to put the front wing on correctly. If you don't have the little instruction manual, you should be able to find it online.

Oh man all the way back AND position A
Yeah that's hard work
I take back all of my post

Hey AUS220.
I agree with boardsurfr.
You want to be standing in the middle of the board. You don't want to be standing at the front of the board as the nose will sink, and not at the back of the board as it will plough water with the nose up. Once you work out where you're feet should be, THEN set the foil up to be in between your feet. A real rough guide is once you have set your foil on your board (board is upside down), you lift the whole setup from the front foil. Put your hand under the front foil and lift. What SHOULD happen is the board lifts up level. If it lifts with the nose tilted down, that probably means the foil is positioned too far to the back - you'll really struggle to get going as you will have too much weight on the nose of the board. If it lifts with the back tilted down, that means the foil is positioned too far to the nose and if you start to get going, the nose will lift up quickly and you'll fall off the back.
Lets say you find that the board leans to the back and you need to move the foil further backwards to balance it up. It may be that looking at the settings, the base plate is as far back as you can get it. If that's the case (and I'm not saying it is - just that it MIGHT be), you may find that your foil is not compatible with your board. Hopefully that's not the case, but for some combos it can be.
FWIW, I find a board under 5'6" REALLY sensative to front and back foot pressure when trying to get going. I used to have a 5 footer and if I leaned a little too far forwards, the nose would submerge. Lean too far back and the whole setup ploughs and loses speed. I'm not particularly competent, but I have little doubt you are pushing your boundaries as a learner with a board that short. Also not saying you can't overcome it. Just expect it to be hard.
I think you're doing the right thing by adjusting gear first. I wouldn't tear off and buy more gear yet.
Good luck and keep hitting us up with questions. It's great to see another sailor join the movement.

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AUS220 said..
Thanks for everyone's advice, I will try a few of these suggestions- foil forward in box, more wind etc.
I will eventually invest in a new foil, but until then I will keep trying with what I have got.

use the good advice given and just get out there. We all had hours of frustration - it's just water time. pure and simple. Don't put too much into in your head - just keep rocking up and eating sh1t Then one day you wonder what all the fuss was about

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boardsurfr said..

AUS220 said..
my foil was pretty much all the way the back
My front wing is in the A "kiting" position

So you must have been standing with both feet in front of the front wing. No way you could possibly foil like that, not even totally overpowered.

The 76 is a good wing to get started on. The length of the fuse does not matter much at the start; I and many others have started out winging with long fuses. But if got your foil from a kiter, it's probably shorter (which is ok to start, and better once you advance). Hope you got all the bolts and parts you need to put the front wing on correctly. If you don't have the little instruction manual, you should be able to find it online.

Thanks, I was confused why I couldn't even get the board to pop, now I have something to fix (instead of blaming myself )
The fuse I have is short and only has one position (The front wing in kiting position), However I have a longer fuse with A,B,C positions written on it-its stuck on to a smaller wing- I'll try and unstick it, if not I'll try and use the smaller front wing (Infinity 65), that should yield better results than what I was trying before
Thanks heaps for this information!

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AUS220 said..

Thanks, I was confused why I couldn't even get the board to pop, now I have something to fix (instead of blaming myself )

How'd you go, did you get it going and what did you change?

Your experience with the SS 76 is interesting. My winging buddy and I had i76 setups we used for winDfoiling on SS Wizards. Using position B we both felt there was TOO MUCH lift from the 76 at speed with both the Wizards and then our Duotone Sky Wing boards when we shifted over to winging. A shim on the stabilizer greatly improved the ride. (There was way too much downforce). Since then we have moved on to Axis HPS foils and we are loving them on Duotone and AK Nomad boards.

So once you get the 76 in B position and with good foot positioning I wouldn't be surprised if at that point you will need a shim. A simple bread bag tag works wonders. Your goal is to reduce the downforce force of the stab. You can use that setup before you move on to a HA setup for the real magic!

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kitebored said..

AUS220 said..

Thanks, I was confused why I couldn't even get the board to pop, now I have something to fix (instead of blaming myself )

How'd you go, did you get it going and what did you change?

I literally just slide the mast forward in the track
at first, there was way too much lift, I was popping out of the water and then breaching 0.5 seconds later
I went back on shore and slide it a little further back, I was able to control the lift a bit more but I still had too much.
At that point the wind was very gusty (24 kt gusts, 8-10 knot lulls) and I had to call it quits without any extended foiling, however I did have enough lift.
I haven't been out for a while as I have been busy, and the weather has been **** recently
Next time I go out i will move the mast a smidge further back, closer to the middle of the track, and I will let everyone know how it goes!

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AUS220 said..

I literally just slide the mast forward in the track

Awesome! Good to know and your post should help some others who have the same symptoms!