Hi,

did anyone notice the problem that after around 20 to 30 sessions your wing gets softer and softer?especially one the bigger sizes 5.5 and up.

In Germany, people report, that they all have this problem with Dacron wings. The ones made of Aluula don't have it.

It's not clear if it is only the canopy or the dacron that gets soft or both.

The next Ocean Rodea and Duotone unit should also have different stuff for the canopy.

Yes, here is a thread. www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Wing-Foiling/Wind-Wings/How-long-will-a-wing-last-

I find it interesting that kites have better durability. Can anyone explain that?

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cornwallis said..
Yes, here is a thread. www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Wing-Foiling/Wind-Wings/How-long-will-a-wing-last-

I find it interesting that kites have better durability. Can anyone explain that?

It's because wings nearly always get wet where as kites mostly stay dry. for instance a 1 season school kite tgat crashes and gets wet a lot is like a 4 year old kite of good rider

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cornwallis said..
Yes, here is a thread. www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Wing-Foiling/Wind-Wings/How-long-will-a-wing-last-

I find it interesting that kites have better durability. Can anyone explain that?

Kites get most of the support from the lines spreading the load all over the kite.You can buy a kite with non inflatable leading edge (ram) and it will fly fine,like a paraglider.
Wings support themselves and all the load is concentrated on 2 points (handles) on the strut.

Most decent kiters keep their kites flying and rarely crash them hard.
Wings get thrashed regularly.

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cornwallis said..
Yes, here is a thread. www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Wing-Foiling/Wind-Wings/How-long-will-a-wing-last-

I find it interesting that kites have better durability. Can anyone explain that?

A mate reckons he notices a kite degrades after 10 uses. Maybe bridle spreading load dampens out any deformations

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patronus said..

cornwallis said..
Yes, here is a thread. www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Wing-Foiling/Wind-Wings/How-long-will-a-wing-last-

I find it interesting that kites have better durability. Can anyone explain that?

A mate reckons he notices a kite degrades after 10 uses. Maybe bridle spreading load dampens out any deformations

Foil race kite maybe and then they retune the bridles and speed system but not a lei kite

It's probably more to do with a kite being 25m away and you can't see or feel minor issues. You also have the full length of the lines for a power stroke so you don't feel those stretch issues. The amount of power in a kite is huge.

The arch shape of a kite and lines at the tips means that the whole canopy is supported. Foil kites have transverse tension bands of stiffer fabric to achieve a similar result.

A wing is right next to your face, you can see, hear and feel everything that happens. Wings have only as much power as you can hold in your hands so there's no excess to cover any kind of degradation.

I think vigorous low wind pumping and using a "too large" wing in high wind conditions will certainly contribute to canopy stretch.

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mcrt said..

cornwallis said..
Yes, here is a thread. www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Wing-Foiling/Wind-Wings/How-long-will-a-wing-last-

I find it interesting that kites have better durability. Can anyone explain that?

Kites get most of the support from the lines spreading the load all over the kite.You can buy a kite with non inflatable leading edge (ram) and it will fly fine,like a paraglider.
Wings support themselves and all the load is concentrated on 2 points (handles) on the strut.

Most decent kiters keep their kites flying and rarely crash them hard.
Wings get thrashed regularly.

Very true. In the early days of 4-line kites (no bridles) and even 2-line dinosaurs, they had pretty lousy shape stability as well. We called it the jellyfish effect!

Even with the standard canopy material my SLS Slicks have done an awesome job of not going soft and floppy on me....so far (way better than my original Slicks and Echo's). And without the aluula expense...

Interesting comments, thank you. Various thoughts but it seems not conclusive? Best theory to me is the single point V of a wing vs the two attachement point+bridle (upside down U) shape of the kite, spreading the load and inherently more stable.

I have had kites from the 2003 North Rhino, C kites generation. Largely stopped kiting for a decade, and then recently a 2020 Airush. They all varyingly got a bit ropey towards the end of life, but generally perfectly rideable. I recently binned a 2008 Naish Torch, only due to leaky valves. Valve failure far more common.

Something back with those early pre-bridle kites I did not notice was severe loss in performance due to bagging out. Seemingly wings are lasting 30-40 sessions before going to pasture. A wing from a prior season can tell from a mile away that the canopy is stretched and looks terrible, let alone a few generations prior, they look like shopping bags. I've only just started shopping for a wing myself, and while a second hand kite seems to leave plenty of life, a used wing seems a waste of time.

I suppose the tell here is judging by the trailing edge fluttering? Same as a sail on a boat, sometimes the leach is just bagged out, and you need a new sail!

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leepasty said..
It's because wings nearly always get wet where as kites mostly stay dry. for instance a 1 season school kite tgat crashes and gets wet a lot is like a 4 year old kite of good rider

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mcrt said..
Most decent kiters keep their kites flying and rarely crash them hard.
Wings get thrashed regularly.

Interesting, I wonder if the actual water is the issue, or the crashing. I crashed kites frequently enough and usually not leading to notable bagging out of the canopy.

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leepasty said..

patronus said..
A mate reckons he notices a kite degrades after 10 uses. Maybe bridle spreading load dampens out any deformations

Foil race kite maybe and then they retune the bridles and speed system but not a lei kite

I can imagine this being the case for race kites as the same with any race sails, big money games!

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Gorgo said..
It's probably more to do with a kite being 25m away and you can't see or feel minor issues. You also have the full length of the lines for a power stroke so you don't feel those stretch issues. The amount of power in a kite is huge.

The arch shape of a kite and lines at the tips means that the whole canopy is supported. Foil kites have transverse tension bands of stiffer fabric to achieve a similar result.

A wing is right next to your face, you can see, hear and feel everything that happens. Wings have only as much power as you can hold in your hands so there's no excess to cover any kind of degradation.

Interesting regarding the support, I can imagine this being the case, a single point V of a wing vs the two attachement point+bridle (upside down U) of the kite, which inherently more stable with 4 connection points, add the bridle and you can design in more support.

I wonder about the power, possibly true as kiting generally requires a big pull, and so maybe that masks the subtlety degrading performance over time.

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bigtone667 said..
I think vigorous low wind pumping and using a "too large" wing in high wind conditions will certainly contribute to canopy stretch.

I imagine this is the cause of the deformation, but don't see this being the reason this happens with wings and not kites, which generally survive more severe loads.

interesting would be, why the Aluula powerd wings don't have this problem. they are now also a year on the marked, so people should have noticed it, but at least what i hear, that they report they are still fine.

the canopy is the same, if you pump the same force is on the canopy. or even more because Aluula Struts or more stiff?

but also Hookipa and Penta X, should be without these problems, however lots of brands focus on the canopy. like Reedin,
and Duotone and Ocean Rodeo will bring also a new canopy.

I have read many complaints regarding canopy bagging on aluula wings. That is the issue right there, expensive wings that are amazingly light but don't last any longer.

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AnyBoard said..
I have read many complaints regarding canopy bagging on aluula wings. That is the issue right there, expensive wings that are amazingly light but don't last any longer.

Where have you read all these complaints?
I have 4 and 5.5 dlabs which are used on average 4 to 5 times per week in winds to around 30 knots and no issues- still like new.

I definitely have noticed canopy stretch relatively early on all my Dacron wings. Alternatively, I have a Reedin Superwing X that I've used 3 times as much as any of my Dacron wings that has little to no canopy stretch at all. For me, I'm thinking there will come a point where it's worth paying more up front to have a wing that will last 3-4 times as long.

I've just accepted it's part and parcel of these wings for now anyway. It's only there to get you onto a swell line / wave (for me anyhow). Still works bagged out or not. We are constantly shock loading these wings - a kite would feel the same with that much sudden loading. My wings are a good season and half in - bagged to sh1t - but still work.

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warwickl said..

AnyBoard said..
I have read many complaints regarding canopy bagging on aluula wings. That is the issue right there, expensive wings that are amazingly light but don't last any longer.

Where have you read all these complaints?
I have 4 and 5.5 dlabs which are used on average 4 to 5 times per week in winds to around 30 knots and no issues- still like new.

I am not about to go back to the various forums I read but it has been a topic of considerable discussion.

It could even be argued the stiffer frame might lead to quicker canopy stretch. When I pump my wing to get off the water in very low wind my older less stiff wings are unable to load up the canopy to the extent my later stiffer wings can. From what I understand the issue has been accepted by the industry and solutions are already being worked on for the high end wings and some of those solutions are already popping up.

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AnyBoard said..

warwickl said..

AnyBoard said..
I have read many complaints regarding canopy bagging on aluula wings. That is the issue right there, expensive wings that are amazingly light but don't last any longer.

Where have you read all these complaints?
I have 4 and 5.5 dlabs which are used on average 4 to 5 times per week in winds to around 30 knots and no issues- still like new.

I am not about to go back to the various forums I read but it has been a topic of considerable discussion.

It could even be argued the stiffer frame might lead to quicker canopy stretch. When I pump my wing to get off the water in very low wind my older less stiff wings are unable to load up the canopy to the extent my later stiffer wings can. From what I understand the issue has been accepted by the industry and solutions are already being worked on for the high end wings and some of those solutions are already popping up.

Well you have access to information I don't.
Several dlabs in my area and like me no issues

My old first generation Ensis 4.5 wing blow up at some point. However, before that happened (after some 60-70 sessions) I didn't notice degradation of performance. It was my first wing so it was wet for quite a lot and was not handled too gently.
I don't say it didn't bag out, I don't know if it did. However, I was able to use it (including pumping in marginal winds) without noticeable loss of performance.

Naish talks about kites going soft in his product video, wanting to avoid kites turning into "a baggy mess" (2min in)

I don't think it's necessarily bad. Some rider I know prefer their wing to soften a bit to absorbe more gust etc. Could also be a marketing strategy to push influencer to make that statement to make everyone bite the bullet that a 3500$ is better.

also, Kauper claims that his upcoming Tyrong wing would not have a noticeable issue there. He said you can prevent it by how you design the wing itself and how you put the different materials together.
If his wing will be publicly available in the next weeks, then next summer we might know if he was right or not.