My top speeds winging seem to be somewhat in line with the wind speed, maybe slightly faster. I generally wing in 15-20 knots of wind with f-one seven seas 1200 foil. I'm guessing one can do better with a small high aspect foil and more efficient wing.

Are any of you winging significantly faster than the wind speed (at least 1.5x)? On what gear?

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miamiwngr said..
My top speeds winging seem to be somewhat in line with the wind speed, maybe slightly faster. I generally wing in 15-20 knots of wind with f-one seven seas 1200 foil. I'm guessing one can do better with a small high aspect foil and more efficient wing.

Are any of you winging significantly faster than the wind speed (at least 1.5x)? On what gear?

This is quite the norm with kitefoil, on a fast foil and a large race kite 8 knots of wind will easily get you up to or over 30 knots of board speed.

You just need to reduce the foil drag and have enough power to get going in nice smooth water conditions. Those big race kites are 15-21 sq mts, impossible size for a wing.

Hi Miami,

Idon't think you'll see too many wing foilers going much faster than wind speed with current everyday gear. The gains will come from more efficient wings. Current production wings are very inefficient compared to the likes of kite race foil kites. I could kite at 20+ knots in 5-6 knots of wind on my kite foil gear.

Hand wings have limitations of thier dimentions. Their wingspan limits their ability to have higher aspect shapes, then there is the stability issue with the need to have large diameter front tubes which cause drag, and finally the absence of a bottom skin to reduce drag. This isn't insurmoutable and I suspect we will start to see some pretty advanced twin skin designs start to creep into wing foil racing before too long.

When you compare the shape of a hand wing to a race foil kite, we are talking about completely different animals. You'll never go even close to the power and efficiency of a race foil kite.

DM

You can definitely do it on a wing but you'll need a <1000 cm2 fast section foil. It's actually easier to do in lighter winds where water surface is smoother but I've only managed 20-22 knots in 15 knots wind so far. Can go faster in stronger winds but it gets closer to actual wind speed then.

Maybe you could get a few tips from these guys.....wayyyyyy next level!

Lighter wind in flat water, then going into a broad reach...very easy to go much faster than the wind. With any decent foil.

On a 12-15 knot day in flat water, very easy to hit 19-20 knots. No chop helps heaps.

Very possible, need efficient sail and foil. As an example, a recent session I held over 30mph downwind and over 20mph upwind in 8-14 g18 mph wind. The sail makes a huge difference because the apparent wind angle is so close.
Racing the IQ foilers, we were holding 23-25mph on reach legs in 8-12mph wind. SABFOIL w800 and 6m wing.

still a ton of improvement to be made on the sails. I think we can go a lot faster!

Read that in windsurf speed sailing drag is 10% fin, 20% board, 30% sailor, 40% sail. Also read windfoiling foil has 70% drag of fin+ board, so 100 units of drag for windsurfing reduces to 91 for windfoiling (21 foil, 30 sailor, 40 sail). I think windfoilers are on 500cm2 foils. Looking at cumbersome wings compared to sleek windsurf sails (with years of refinements) numbers suggest lots more to be gained from wings than moving from say 1000cm2 to smaller foils.

Yesterday was a typical 10kn SE maximum wind day.
Me 74kg, Duotone 6.5 dlab, 1099 ART Axis with 300 p stab Max speed 17.3kn lake conditions.
I am a very average skilled windwinger and this is not a one off.
A guy kite foiling with a 13m kite was going faster.

I weigh 50kg, with my 6.5m Armstrong wing and 1480cm2 F-One foil I can get to ~20kts speed with ~12kts wind.

With 16kts wind i still get just a little above 20kts, so efficiency is lower. May be due to the foil starting to have too much drag?

Also on 8kts of wind I get to max 12kts of speed.

It's like a curve where max efficiency is at 12kts of wind pushing me at 20kts of max speed.

I believe it's all due to the 6.5m Armstrong. That wing is a beast, my forearms are always pumped after I use it. Also it's due to me being super light weight.

With my 5m wings and the same foil I get slightly above wind speed only around 16-18kts, where I can go a couple of knots faster than the wind. So it's a good indicator that the Armstrong wing is the beast.

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miamiwngr said..
My top speeds winging seem to be somewhat in line with the wind speed, maybe slightly faster. I generally wing in 15-20 knots of wind with f-one seven seas 1200 foil. I'm guessing one can do better with a small high aspect foil and more efficient wing.

Are any of you winging significantly faster than the wind speed (at least 1.5x)? On what gear?

I think to have a faster speed, it's not necessary a HA foil that will go the faster. With GPS and friends, we often hit the same speed a close with the same size foil of different shape. I'm not convince the eagle is faster than the SS1000 for example. Not with our gps tracks on the V2max. on the average yes.However to go faster than the wind, you need a foil that can achieve that. in your case, to go faster than 20knts wind, you need a fast foil!!! I'M not a fast foiler, i clocked 22knts in about 15knts of wind this weekend on a 850cm2....so to go significantly faster in 20 knts you probably need something in the 750-550 area with a hand wing to support your start?

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eddyjmthewll said..
I weigh 50kg, with my 6.5m Armstrong wing and 1480cm2 F-One foil I can get to ~20kts speed with ~12kts wind.

With 16kts wind i still get just a little above 20kts, so efficiency is lower. May be due to the foil starting to have too much drag?

Also on 8kts of wind I get to max 12kts of speed.

It's like a curve where max efficiency is at 12kts of wind pushing me at 20kts of max speed.

I believe it's all due to the 6.5m Armstrong. That wing is a beast, my forearms are always pumped after I use it. Also it's due to me being super light weight.

With my 5m wings and the same foil I get slightly above wind speed only around 16-18kts, where I can go a couple of knots faster than the wind. So it's a good indicator that the Armstrong wing is the beast.

That 1480 FW is huge... you will go a lot fast on a smaller/faster front wing.

+1 can consistently go faster than the wind. Last week 5M wing, 1000MA foil 8-12 knots wind max was able to hit 16-18knots pretty consistently (once up). Key factor here is getting on foil in these light conditions. It took me about 20 minutes of waiting for the right combination of gust and chop.

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miamiwngr said..
My top speeds winging seem to be somewhat in line with the wind speed, maybe slightly faster. I generally wing in 15-20 knots of wind with f-one seven seas 1200 foil. I'm guessing one can do better with a small high aspect foil and more efficient wing.

Are any of you winging significantly faster than the wind speed (at least 1.5x)? On what gear?

Yes. In light winds with small foils and riding high. In 7 kts of wind, beam reaching at 21 kts is quite easy. 3x wind speed. eg1. Naish 914 with then-new SLS 5.5m doing 20 kts in 7kts. eg2. SAB WE900 (cut-down W1000) with F-One CWC 7m doing 21 kts in 7 kts. Can go a bit faster if sail deeper TWA and bring the foil right up near the surface. In salt sea water at about 18C.

If you cannot do 2x wind speed in light winds then you're dragging far too much "bulk" along with you. Get faster foils and bigger+flatter sails. Get a pitch stable and breach tolerant foil setup and ride it near the surface.

Current 7m wingsails are WAY more draggy than those beautiful 12m kitesails which cruise at 4x wind speed (7x4=28kts) with the right foils. But there is I think a squared law between power and drag, so doing 3x is way easier than 4x.

Side note: I would like to see a race between a 2023 spec SailGP F50 and a world class top kite foiler. In both 7 kts and 25 kts TWS. I expect the F50 would win (mainly because of the F50's wing adjustability for upwind vs downwind), but I'd love to see the difference and the beam-reach race to mark 1. Just a tiny difference in cost. LOL!

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shi thouse said..
Maybe you could get a few tips from these guys.....wayyyyyy next level!

The above is transhumanist propaganda.

Here are beautiful humans doing 50 kts, feeling the flow!
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