Coming from a long love story with wind surfing , being not yet good enough at wind foiling (most of the times too much wind to learn safely), should i give the wing foil a try (or not) ?
I mean, what's addictive in wing foiling (more than wind foiling) ? (I already figure it's cheaper, easier to carry, easier to fit in the car, ...)
In my view the wing foiling is a super chance in less than good wave spots, where you can enjoy the freedom this kind of stuff delivers (even tough i think it's a real struggle heading out where depth is not enough for quite long distance). But i laso think it's at its best when wind is in 15-20 kts range. Than it may overlap a good fin slalom session...

Just in case, for 80 kg /180 cm, i think board should be 110L but have no idea about foil and wing specs (and their wind range)
Any help?

Is there a chance to fit some wing foil items to my 95 cm wind foil mast / 90 cm fuselage (knowing there are no brand wing items to fit with) ?
What's the right length of the fuselage and is there any differences between wind and wing foil masts? Maybe the wind foil ones are thinner?

Swell riding, that's were wings excel. Think of it like windfoiling, getting on a swell, being able to remove the mast from the board and let it flag behind you. You now on a small foiling sup, at 80kgs the board is between 70-80 ltrs, about 5kgs and very manoeuvrable. Your front wing is between 1000 and 1200 sqcm. Set up time is minimal, fit the foil and pump up the wing. A 4mtr will do you for anything over 15 knots.

We have both windfoil and wings at out local, the wings definitely rule the swell.

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w100 said..
Coming from a long love story with wind surfing , being not yet good enough at wind foiling (most of the times too much wind to learn safely), should i give the wing foil a try (or not) ?
I mean, what's addictive in wing foiling (more than wind foiling) ? (I already figure it's cheaper, easier to carry, easier to fit in the car, ...)
In my view the wing foiling is a super chance in less than good wave spots, where you can enjoy the freedom this kind of stuff delivers (even tough i think it's a real struggle heading out where depth is not enough for quite long distance). But i laso think it's at its best when wind is in 15-20 kts range. Than it may overlap a good fin slalom session...

Just in case, for 80 kg /180 cm, i think board should be 110L but have no idea about foil and wing specs (and their wind range)
Any help?

Is there a chance to fit some wing foil items to my 95 cm wind foil mast (knowing there are no brand wing items to fit with) ?

An 80-90 l 5.0 to 5.5 feet wingfoil board,as light as you can afford, will be a "keeper" for your weight.
If your conditions are inconsistent wind wise it might be your daily driver forever.
It is a lot easier to start winging on a 110l board but you will be selling it quite soon.As in a couple weeks.
You could start winging on your windfoil boards if they are big, just to get the hang of the wing (it will feel very low power vs a windsurf rig).

Foil size 1500 to 1900 is great to stsrt but you will end up with a 1200 pretty soon i think.
A Takuma LOL 1600 or 1900 setup is cheap and later you can put a Kujira 1210 wing on it.

And go learn on 15 to 20kt days,5m wing.
This guarantees getting up easy,it is the most frustrating bit.You can already foil so your progress will be very fast.

Search for Stinkbug start, save you a lot of balancing.

Besides what the others said, it's much easier to: get on the foil, get thru a shore break, fly level (2 balance points vs 3). Learn the knee start from day one. Once you can do that, you can go down to a board your weight + 10 litres. It's also a lot less physical than windfoiling, let alone windsurfing. When I started, I was falling in all the time (vs hardly at all windfoiling), yet I wouldn't get as tired. This may not be a good thing if you want a workout, LOL.

Pros: It is just bloody awesome, less kit, smaller kit, rigs quicker, amazing wind range (less re-rigging), makes crap waves great, don't even need waves (surfing/DW bumps is amazing), surfing wakes is fun, has an extremely free feeling (not as locked in as windsurfing/windfoiling), you can start a new and upcoming sport not as hard to learn new tricks as windsurfing (still a challenge though) and it just bloody awesome (did I already say that?).

Cons: Needs deeper water compared to windsurfing (not windfoiling obviously), wings are in the early stages of development, it's addictive and your windsurfing kit may start collecting dust.

I started winging with the intention for only light wind days. Now my wavesaling kit is just sitting there. I won't sell it though as it may be fun to jump on for something different. But in Perth where the waves are crap I can now go get rides as long as I like downwind when the bumps are there (15 knots ok 20 knots and up heaps of fun).
I would recommend a board ~20L above body weight depending on fitness and balance and a foil of about 2000cm2 to learn on. You may move on from these relatively quick but you also may want to hold onto them depending on your conditions and other foiling aspersions.

Both winging and windfoiling are good, you know which one I prefer

I've been a longtime windsurfer and kiter (first love is windsurfing) and have been winging the last year and a bit. I haven't touched my kites and surprisingly, even to me, the windsurfing wave kit has collected dust for the first time in over (ahem) 40 years of windsurfing stoke. I hope to windsurf in waves again but the wingfoil progression has kept me from doing any other windsport for a while now. We have great windswell at our local as well as a wave spot within an hour and a half's drive and the wing has been an amazing tool to exploit conditions that would have bored me otherwise. Riding even 3' windswell for minutes at a time flagged out is like having a cheat code for accessing flow state on a regular basis and I do less driving than I used to for good windsurfing. Now conditions that would have been reserved for high wind windsurfing wave kit have me wanting to wing instead. Even 15 knot days get me excited again. Big question is how long will the honeymoon phase last? I miss looping and smashing lips, but there's something about the feeling of riding a foil and tapping into the wave energy in a very direct way that keeps me interested. It's only early days; imagine how good the equipment will be in another 5 years? Go for it.

You mentioned slalom windsurfing: are you into speed? What windfoil do you have?

If you can resist it, don't try wing foiling and stay with windsurfing.The feel of riding swell is more addictive as cocaine with a rush that lasts for days instead of 30min and you can have a LOT more sessions as with windsurfing.
The downtrade is that once you got the bug there are so many interesting wings,foil, boards to try and buy that cocaine might be the cheaper addiction, so just don,t do it.
At least you are warned by what used to be an hardcore wavesailor (50+sess a year) with before wingfoiling (can we already talk about a live before wingfoiling as BW?) that now barely windsurfs but does a 112 wing sessions a year and losing private life due all the TOW .

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Grantmac said..
You mentioned slalom windsurfing: are you into speed? What windfoil do you have?

Yeah, I compete in fin slalom and try to push my speed scores as much as possible. Phantom X

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w100 said..

Grantmac said..
You mentioned slalom windsurfing: are you into speed? What windfoil do you have?

Yeah, I compete in fin slalom and try to push my speed scores as much as possible. Phantom X

No two ways around it winging is slow. Windfoiling is perhaps a little faster depending on equipment. Neither is slalom/GPS fast. If you were a wavesailor or into freestyle I'd say winging would be a good choice.
Also you can learn to windfoil in 25-30kts just as easily as you can learn to wing.

Like jeroensurf wrote.
Don't do it.
I must have spent over $20K in the last 2 years (resold many fortunately).
It's VERY ADDICTIVE.
I live in Canada and would wave sail (windsurf) 20-30 sessions a year (been windsurfing x40yrs), now it's 210-220 days a year on the unfrozen water, only limited by ice formation (then switch to winging on skis).
Cruising usually 15-20 knots but can keep up with most windsurfers if pushing, though not the goal.
As many mentioned, the feeling on swell is sooooo Zen. Mindfulness for hours at a time riding swell flagged.
But don't do it, unless ready to waste a lot of time on water and constantly charging your credit card.

I've just started wingfoiling after about 2 years of windfoiling. I think give it a shot, wingfoiling is ridiculously easy compared to windfoiling, probably aided by the fact I can windfoil well but I'm 6 sessions in and here is my comparison:
- altitude control ridiculously easy compared to windfoiling, I could easily control my height from the first run, where as learning windfoiling it took 10s of sessions to get comfortable and even now if it's very gusty it can still be a challenge.
- foil gybes I managed to fly through foil gybes first time out. Windfoiling I reckon it took me a solid 6 months at least and more than 20 sessions to even crack my first one.
- by 3rd session I got some pretty decent foil gybes and could fly out and sail toeside which coming from windsurfing is the thing I find most difficult. After session 6 I think my successful gybe % is now over 80%, and I can sail toeside, switch stance etc quite reliably.
- gear, just less gear to carry and it's quicker to setup, the wings are much lighter to handle compared to windsurfing sails of similar sizes. As a slalom guy you might not care about this aspect.
- wings go upwind amazingly well considering the fact they are less efficient, something about the configuration of them just makes them easy to truck upwind even if you are barely powered.
- wing usable range for size is much larger. Windfoiling I much prefer to change down sail sizes quickly, but wingfoiling, I manage the 5m yesterday in over 20kts and it wasnt ideal but also wasn't an issue. Wings just have a lot more depower than windsurfers. You can sail a wind surfer sheeted out, but it completely ruins your stance.
- winging is trivial to get through a shore break, whereas I think windfoil kit it's almost impossible which limits where you can launch.

Biggest negative with wings for me is as the sail+board aren't connected, there are scary moments when you crash and the foil ends up in a scary spot. Windfoiling as long as you hang onto the sail and in the straps I've never been anywhere near the foil.

I'm 80kg too and I went with the fanatic skywing 105L and 5m duotone Unit and a big axis foil, in think 820mm, which is an old low aspect thing. That suits me from about 12kts to 20kts+. For reference my max speed on the wing is 13kts before it starts humming wildly, but windfoiling I'm pushing over 25kts, and my minimum speed in gybes is higher than my max speed on the wing.

I find with wingfoiling it really decouples the "sail" from the foil, so it makes the foil part a lot easier, and it's also a different experience as you are more connected to the water with the foil, and there is less of that locked in power in the sail feeling. Windfoiling there is this complex 3 way interaction between mast foot pressure, sail pressure and your body which I don't think many people find intuitive.

I'll continue to do both. Windfoiling I love the strapped in feel, the pressure on the sail, chasing that perfect balance and knife edge to rip around. Effortless gybes and duckgybes, jumping and trying flat water loops. Will be my go to for flat water between 15-25kts with 4.0 & 3.3m dials. And try to crack 30kts. In my experience in going anywhere from 10kts faster than most wingers and usually on 0.5-1m smaller sail size (useless metric lol)

Wingfoiling I'm starting to get bored of doing in flat water (only thing left is to learn tacks?) but there is so much potential for it where there is a bit of swell around. It will probably be my go to in lighter winds just because the big wings are heaps lighter to handle than big sails. So 12-20kts, anywhere there is a bit of swell. Gateway drug to hopefully the ultimate which will be the prone foil. And it's perfect kit to take beach camping.

Btw, I have the Phantom X, with 730 and 550 ffront wings. I wouldn't recommend them for llearning to windfoil. Fantastic for once you have learnt to wingfoil, but way too scary to learn on in my opinion. They just want to go fast and its way too fast and scary in my opinion for a beginner.

Btw I picked up all my wingfoil kit for $3k, brand new wing, everything else good secondhand. Youre Phantom X I would hazard was close to $4k new. And unless you know someone who is a handy machinist, I wouldn't bother trying to adapt wingfoil to your windfoil mast. Just buy a second hand axis kit, will be like $800ish.

I know some guys above have gone down the winging gear rabbit hole, but the one positive is there is so much wing gear out there now that when you are starting there is plenty of cheap second hand kit

Surf to sup to windsurf to foiling
I highly recommend this water sport
there is much less material so setup is easier
the wing needs no tuning and has a much larger wind range than a WS sail
I personally don't get the 'big' board for beginners thing - unless you want to be able to stand up in any conditions (ie no wind) or you like to sup your board
if you can try some boards, lots of boards, every board, for comfort that woud be ideal
the big difference for me is that rather than standing and uphauling you are going to be kneeling and uphauling - if you are comfortable on a board in the kneeling position you will be good to go
you choose the front foil and matching stab much like you choose your fin depending on wind conditions
but in reality even a 2 or 3 front wing and stab quiver will see you happy 99 percent of the time
it's a lot less about speed and more about carving and freeriding in my opinion
I dont WS anymore and I cant wait to get back out on the water

Almost forgot, no more smashed board noses from the mast after a catapult.

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airsail said..
Almost forgot, no more smashed board noses from the mast after a catapult.

True, but many wingfoil boards still crack, delaminate.

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swoosh said..
I've just started wingfoiling after about 2 years of windfoiling. I think give it a shot, wingfoiling is ridiculously easy compared to windfoiling, probably aided by the fact I can windfoil well but I'm 6 sessions in and here is my comparison:
- altitude control ridiculously easy compared to windfoiling, I could easily control my height from the first run, where as learning windfoiling it took 10s of sessions to get comfortable and even now if it's very gusty it can still be a challenge.
- foil gybes I managed to fly through foil gybes first time out. Windfoiling I reckon it took me a solid 6 months at least and more than 20 sessions to even crack my first one.
- by 3rd session I got some pretty decent foil gybes and could fly out and sail toeside which coming from windsurfing is the thing I find most difficult. After session 6 I think my successful gybe % is now over 80%, and I can sail toeside, switch stance etc quite reliably.
- gear, just less gear to carry and it's quicker to setup, the wings are much lighter to handle compared to windsurfing sails of similar sizes. As a slalom guy you might not care about this aspect.
- wings go upwind amazingly well considering the fact they are less efficient, something about the configuration of them just makes them easy to truck upwind even if you are barely powered.
- wing usable range for size is much larger. Windfoiling I much prefer to change down sail sizes quickly, but wingfoiling, I manage the 5m yesterday in over 20kts and it wasnt ideal but also wasn't an issue. Wings just have a lot more depower than windsurfers. You can sail a wind surfer sheeted out, but it completely ruins your stance.
- winging is trivial to get through a shore break, whereas I think windfoil kit it's almost impossible which limits where you can launch.

Biggest negative with wings for me is as the sail+board aren't connected, there are scary moments when you crash and the foil ends up in a scary spot. Windfoiling as long as you hang onto the sail and in the straps I've never been anywhere near the foil.

I'm 80kg too and I went with the fanatic skywing 105L and 5m duotone Unit and a big axis foil, in think 820mm, which is an old low aspect thing. That suits me from about 12kts to 20kts+. For reference my max speed on the wing is 13kts before it starts humming wildly, but windfoiling I'm pushing over 25kts, and my minimum speed in gybes is higher than my max speed on the wing.

I find with wingfoiling it really decouples the "sail" from the foil, so it makes the foil part a lot easier, and it's also a different experience as you are more connected to the water with the foil, and there is less of that locked in power in the sail feeling. Windfoiling there is this complex 3 way interaction between mast foot pressure, sail pressure and your body which I don't think many people find intuitive.

I'll continue to do both. Windfoiling I love the strapped in feel, the pressure on the sail, chasing that perfect balance and knife edge to rip around. Effortless gybes and duckgybes, jumping and trying flat water loops. Will be my go to for flat water between 15-25kts with 4.0 & 3.3m dials. And try to crack 30kts. In my experience in going anywhere from 10kts faster than most wingers and usually on 0.5-1m smaller sail size (useless metric lol)

Wingfoiling I'm starting to get bored of doing in flat water (only thing left is to learn tacks?) but there is so much potential for it where there is a bit of swell around. It will probably be my go to in lighter winds just because the big wings are heaps lighter to handle than big sails. So 12-20kts, anywhere there is a bit of swell. Gateway drug to hopefully the ultimate which will be the prone foil. And it's perfect kit to take beach camping.

Btw, I have the Phantom X, with 730 and 550 ffront wings. I wouldn't recommend them for llearning to windfoil. Fantastic for once you have learnt to wingfoil, but way too scary to learn on in my opinion. They just want to go fast and its way too fast and scary in my opinion for a beginner.

What's your windsurf foil? You'll be wingfoiling faster with a smaller HA front wing (probably still slower than your windsurf foil, but the difference won't be 10 knots).

I was sailing Fanatic Flow 1000, now I have Phantom slalom foils with 730cm2 and 550cm2 front wings, as well as an Axis ART799 but I haven't used that yet.

I have no interest in going fast on a wing. Only as fast as required to chase swells. But windfoiling to me is a little boring below 20kts.

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swoosh said..
I was sailing Fanatic Flow 1000, now I have Phantom slalom foils with 730cm2 and 550cm2 front wings, as well as an Axis ART799 but I haven't used that yet.

I have no interest in going fast on a wing. Only as fast as required to chase swells. But windfoiling to me is a little boring below 20kts.

What you say now...

There are more efficient wind riding vehicles: local session logs show both wind foiling and kite foiling clock speeds 40-50% faster on average, as well as more effective light wind performance.

Windsurfing and kitesurfing you can schwack lips, throw spray, do big powered jumps. So it's not that.

Winging can be less expensive, as there's a few less pieces of gear, but for most addicts on here chasing the top performance, it's equally or more expensive. Not that either.

So what's the addiction? Maybe 2 things:

1. there's some magic to the wing and foil combo, in that you are super light and free feeling. If kiting and windsurfing are like the high powered flight of a hummingbird or wasp, flying a wing feels like a butterfly. There's a tiny margin of it not working, one strand of eel grass and it won't function. When it does....feels like magic, like it shouldn't be possible. You are not attached to the wind power vehicle, you can move your body however feels right.

2. wave riding: you can 100% depower the wing and fully experience the wave energy. Both kite surfers and windsurfers both argue they are "surfing", but I disagree...they are riding the wind while in and amongst waves. There's a subtle difference. Wave foiling is a different experience as you are not riding the surface, but actually riding inside the wave's energy, like a dolphin surfs. And while that sounds hokey, "only a foiler knows the feeling".

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juandesooka said..
Both kite surfers and windsurfers both argue they are "surfing", but I disagree...they are riding the wind while in and amongst waves. There's a subtle difference. Wave foiling is a different experience as you are not riding the surface, but actually riding inside the wave's energy, like a dolphin surfs. And while that sounds hokey, "only a foiler knows the feeling".

Exactly.
Never felt so connected to the water energy as flagging on a wave.
Can't wait to be able to do Supfoil downwinders.
Now I understand why dolphins are having so much fun on a ship wake.

If we say swimming is one of the closest forms to flying, experience-wise, I will say wing foiling is another one above water. The feeling of feeling the flow of the sea breeze, it's just naturally gives me a sense of happiness and relaxation..

Some benefits of wingfoiling that maybe weren't mentioned yet:

- Gusty offshore wind days are just fine whereas with windsurfing gear, there is no right sail size and you struggle to get back to shore. For me, this pretty much doubles the number of days I can sail.
- You don't need to grip the boom/handles hard, so wearing mittens is much less of a problem than with windsurfing. It's cold here, so it helps extend the season a bit longer for me.
- We often sail until the wind dies. With a wingfoil, if you get enough of a gust to get on the foil, it's often possible to foil back to shore (even if you have to point a bit upwind). If the wind shifts completely or dies almost totally, the wingfoil kit is really easy to paddle quickly back to shore. Windsurfing gear is a nightmare to paddle with.

I haven't given up windsurfing, but I have to started to be quite picky about the conditions I do it in.

w100, as many others have said here, it is DEFINTELY worth a try. If you're dubious, try and borrow a friends learning-orientated gear and give it a go.
I have 3+ decades of windsurfing behind me - not a talented sailor tho. Took up windfoiling 5 years ago and loved that it extended time on water by being able to utilize sub 15 knots of wind which we often get here. Couldn't (and still can't) flying gybe on the windfoil.
Gave wingdinging a run 12 months ago. Wing was easy since I had sailing experience. Foiling was pretty straight forwards too with the windsurf foiling background. Learned on a 125 litre board and I'm 70kg. Got going on 2nd time.
The addictive thing with dinging for me is the ability to control the wing in more varied winds and pump the foil easier (especially when trying to fly though lulls) than on the windfoil. Windfoiling I found it was harder to depower the sail in gusts and control the bucket loads of lift going into the foil and causing it to breach. Dinging is much easier. Not that I'm good at it, but getting on a wave, parking the wing and surf foiling is sensational fun. There are windfoil guys who can surf waves really well, but I think they have a lot of talent. That's not me.
I could never flying gybe the windfoil, but can easy get flying gybes on the ding. I think having rig weight on the windfoil board makes control a little bit more difficult compared to the ding.
As for boards, well I have a 118L board which is short, narrow and corky. It floats me really well if the wind drops out to sub 5. I've used a 95L board and it didn't feel much different to the 118L in terms of getting up and going or swingweight, so when learning, I wouldn't be adverse to getting a biggish litreage board especially if you are learning in sloppy waters where some stability will be of assistance. I'm still a long way from getting a smaller board as this one easy delivers for me. Getting something 20L more than body weight would have made my learning curve a lot steeper. While learning, I think you get diminishing returns on a smaller board in terms of performance but you compromise stability much more. If you've got the skills to overcome that, then go for it, but while learning a smaller board may slow down the progress.
Foil : I got the Axis BSC 1060. Total winner. Bought the windsurf foil fuse (88cm long) which massively aids with pitch stability. Really good for learning. Not good for manouverability. Another compromise. Depending on what you want to do and how you want to ride, the longer fuse will aid with learning how to ride toeside and for swapping feet. Shorter fuse will react faster, but also you need to react faster to control it, so that's why I'm still messing with the longer fuse.
I settled on a Duotone 5m Slick as my big wing. Bigger than that for me means that the wing tips ocsassionally touch the water when attempting to pump onto the foil. I'm 175cm tall.
I agree with what JuriM has said above.

Same reason we do everything else.for the ladies! The find it irresistible!