Wings share a lot with kites but individual wings have poorer wind range than individual kites. So, to cover a given wind range people end up with maybe 4 wings and 2 foils, whereas a kiter has one board and 1-2 kites. Kites are also comfortable at either end of their wind range, whist wings can be used they are less comfortable. Sure, there is the super-talented (usually light) winger with 1-2 wings out in all conditions, then there is the super-talented kiter out in more.
Any ideas on why that is, and what can be done about it? Seems to be stiffer and more expensive, anything else?

What do you mean by 'poorer windrange'? The largest wing in existence has 9m2 whereas the same size kite is considered a kite for moderate to high winds.

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pacoz said..
What do you mean by 'poorer windrange'? The largest wing in existence has 9m2 whereas the same size kite is considered a kite for moderate to high winds.

I edited the post to be a bit clearer.

because its not supported by multiple lines connecting along the length.
A wing wants to fold in half.... but imagine if you could hold the centre strut and wingtips at the same time.

No brainer

Compared to parawings they fly very well. I have 3 wings that cover me from 10 to 35 knots. Same as kiting. Range of wings is similar if not better than kites. Cheaper take up less beach space and you don't have to do jumps next to the beach to have fun. Win win really.

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hilly said..
.......and you don't have to do jumps next to the beach to have fun. Win win really.

you made my day

Also remember that a kite travels across a much larger range of the wind window. If I use a 12m kite in 15knots I'm using much more of the window to increase my lower end. If I use that same size kite in 20knots, I'm using only the upper portion of the wind window (because we all know what would happen if I dive my kite aggressively when I'm overpowered).

If you've ever kited 24m lines versus 12m lines, you realize that you lose some wind range on shorter lines because you're decreasing your radius. Thus making the area of my window much smaller. So now think about 24m lines versus NO lines (winging). Of course the wing will have much less wind range - there's less of the window to use. You're rigid in your ability to utilize the different power zones.

But I suppose I'm only talking about a "sheeted in" scenario here. Remember that with wings you can sheet out, flag out, move hand positions to change angle of attack etc - so that catches up to kites pretty well.

That all being said... In gusting or really high wind conditions I'd much rather be on a wing than a kite.

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patronus said..
Wings share a lot with kites but individual wings have poorer wind range than individual kites. So, to cover a given wind range people end up with maybe 4 wings and 2 foils, whereas a kiter has one board and 1-2 kites. Kites are also comfortable at either end of their wind range, whist wings can be used they are less comfortable. Sure, there is the super-talented (usually light) winger with 1-2 wings out in all conditions, then there is the super-talented kiter out in more.
Any ideas on why that is, and what can be done about it? Seems to be stiffer and more expensive, anything else?

I think firstly important to recognise that the low end and the top end is a lot more difficult and physically demanding in wingfoiling than in kitesurfing. At the low end you need to pump vigorously and exert a lot of energy to get going. At the top end you need to physically hold down a powered up wing and gusts are transferred straight into your arms and shoulders. Kiting both the low end and top end are much more reliant on kite design and rider input on the bar.

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patronus said..
Wings share a lot with kites but individual wings have poorer wind range than individual kites. So, to cover a given wind range people end up with maybe 4 wings and 2 foils, whereas a kiter has one board and 1-2 kites. Kites are also comfortable at either end of their wind range, whist wings can be used they are less comfortable. Sure, there is the super-talented (usually light) winger with 1-2 wings out in all conditions, then there is the super-talented kiter out in more.
Any ideas on why that is, and what can be done about it? Seems to be stiffer and more expensive, anything else?

I think firstly important to recognise that the low end and the top end is a lot more difficult and physically demanding in wingfoiling than in kitesurfing. At the low end you need to pump vigorously and exert a lot of energy to get going. At the top end you need to physically hold down a powered up wing and gusts are transferred straight into your arms and shoulders. Kiting both the low end and top end are much more reliant on kite design and rider input on the bar.

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Mark _australia said..
because its not supported by multiple lines connecting along the length.
A wing wants to fold in half.... but imagine if you could hold the centre strut and wingtips at the same time.

No brainer

What they really need is a mast.

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patronus said..
Wings share a lot with kites but individual wings have poorer wind range than individual kites. So, to cover a given wind range people end up with maybe 4 wings and 2 foils, whereas a kiter has one board and 1-2 kites. Kites are also comfortable at either end of their wind range, whist wings can be used they are less comfortable. Sure, there is the super-talented (usually light) winger with 1-2 wings out in all conditions, then there is the super-talented kiter out in more.
Any ideas on why that is, and what can be done about it? Seems to be stiffer and more expensive, anything else?

I would actually say wings have more range than kites. if you have a 5.5 & 4m wing you can ride when you cannot kite on a 12m and still be out when kites are on 7m. So on kite with TT you need 12,9,7 to have less low end, but of course can handle more wind than 4m wing if you like kiting maxed on 7m.
in kiting a lot depends on board type for wind range like in winging depends on foils

A better comparison may be wings vs windfoil/windsurf sails. Wings are far more versatile than sails when windfoiling in my experience given their greater ability to depower.

25 years of kite development.

5 years into wing design.

5 years into kite design, wind range was ****.

Wings are a lot less dangerous for everyone around you, especially at the limits of their range.

I don't think most riders actualize the full wind range of the wings so they feel worse than they really are. Most of the time, you need a lot less wing to stay on foil than you need to get on foil. By using a slightly positive buoyancy midlength or longer board matched with lightwind takeoff skills you can get flight with a lot less sail than you normally need. Then, in flight, you need a fast, efficient foil to maximize the top end. A 3m wing will destroy you when overpowered with a thick lifty foil. If you go back to the beach and switch that foil out with a speedy glider and go back out in the same wind, suddenly the range feels fine.

So, it's a ridiculously complex balance of using the right board to optimize the low end and the right foil to maximize the top end.

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leepasty said..

patronus said..
Wings share a lot with kites but individual wings have poorer wind range than individual kites. So, to cover a given wind range people end up with maybe 4 wings and 2 foils, whereas a kiter has one board and 1-2 kites. Kites are also comfortable at either end of their wind range, whist wings can be used they are less comfortable. Sure, there is the super-talented (usually light) winger with 1-2 wings out in all conditions, then there is the super-talented kiter out in more.
Any ideas on why that is, and what can be done about it? Seems to be stiffer and more expensive, anything else?

I would actually say wings have more range than kites. if you have a 5.5 & 4m wing you can ride when you cannot kite on a 12m and still be out when kites are on 7m. So on kite with TT you need 12,9,7 to have less low end, but of course can handle more wind than 4m wing if you like kiting maxed on 7m.
in kiting a lot depends on board type for wind range like in winging depends on foils

I haven't kited for 4-5 years, but from my experience I agree with this. I'd much rather be overpowered on a wing than on a kite, both from a physical standpoint and safety standpoint. A wing may have a (slightly) narrower sweetspot than a kite but I'm much more comfortable winging outside of that sweetspot with a wing than with a kite. While it isn't the sweet spot, I can use a 4m wing from ~13-22 knots. There isn't a kite that I would want to ride in that range.

I also agree with the prior post that its more complicated than just the wing and becomes an equation of balancing the wing, board and foil to the conditions.

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B Walnut
So, it's a ridiculously complex balance of using the right board to optimize the low end and the right foil to maximize the top end.

Fast foil also gives you more low end as long as you can get on foil. my biggest foil is Glide dlab 750 and biggest wing is Unit dlab 5.5. I can ride from 8 knots no probs and as long as don't drop off foil can keep riding through 6knt lulls. can also stay on this same kit if the wind picks up to around 22knts. (Although id rather be on 4m or 3.5 if it was 22knts especially in waves)
I'm 87 kg and using 85L skybrid for light wind

@patronus
get on the kite again man
yesterday I was switching between 4.5 wing and 7m kite on surfboard. Waves were pumping head and half cross off but wind as awful really squally hail showers. when no wind after a hail squall I'd wing then when got maxed out swap to kite for half hour. the thing that really sucked was my hands were freezing on wing even wearing palmless mitts. -1.8 windchill but 10 degree c water so on kite was way warmer as could dunk hands. defo found my cold limit for winging

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leepasty said..

B Walnut
So, it's a ridiculously complex balance of using the right board to optimize the low end and the right foil to maximize the top end.

Fast foil also gives you more low end as long as you can get on foil. my biggest foil is Glide dlab 750 and biggest wing is Unit dlab 5.5. I can ride from 8 knots no probs and as long as don't drop off foil can keep riding through 6knt lulls. can also stay on this same kit if the wind picks up to around 22knts. (Although id rather be on 4m or 3.5 if it was 22knts especially in waves)
I'm 87 kg and using 85L skybrid for light wind

Do you reckon you need the DLab to get that amount of range out if the Unit?

Simple answer, kite lines.

The lines give you a solid structure under tension. The more wind and more power in the lines the more solid your kite becomes. A wing relies on the rigidity of the inflated structure. That requires high pressure and thick tubes, and ultra-expensive fabrics.

The lines allow the kite to move around and self-align with the airflow. When a wing moves around it takes you with it with at best uncomfortable results.

The lines give you a 20m power stroke and that stroked work up, down, forward and back. The power stroke of a wing is barely the length of your arm and only works in the pull stroke.

The 20m lines also mean the kite is all the way at the end of them. You don't feel as much of the thrashing and surging that an overpowered kite does, and a lot of the mayhem is dissipated over the length of the lines. An overpowered wing is right in your face trying to buck you off on every gust.

It is possible to get much more range out of a wing than people think. Older soft wings will flex off and spill any gusts. Newer, super rigid wings can be held down in insane conditions with the right technique and a bit of practice. The key is to keep the wing balanced and powered. It only gets the better of you if you let if flop around and drag you off.

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leepasty said..

B Walnut
So, it's a ridiculously complex balance of using the right board to optimize the low end and the right foil to maximize the top end.

Fast foil also gives you more low end as long as you can get on foil. my biggest foil is Glide dlab 750 and biggest wing is Unit dlab 5.5. I can ride from 8 knots no probs and as long as don't drop off foil can keep riding through 6knt lulls. can also stay on this same kit if the wind picks up to around 22knts. (Although id rather be on 4m or 3.5 if it was 22knts especially in waves)
I'm 87 kg and using 85L skybrid for light wind

The following is just joking:
In the UK wind is always cold compared with tropical Australia. So UK air is more dense giving more power at the low end. This may be a valid coment.
Me 74kg also 85l Skybrid and in our summer I need my 1350 2.0 and 7m dlab Ventis to foil from 6kn but I am 78 yo.

"Wings are bad"
I can relate to this statement especially for the top end of wings.
Coming from windsurf, I'm really disapointed by the lack of confort / control / stability on top of the range.
Yes, it's easy to de-power, but flying the wing over your head instead as in front of you induces a vertical lift.
This "unloading" force is exactly what you don't want to keep pressuring the foil at high speed.

I'm sure that with all the R&D background available in kiting and windsurfing, brands could come with 2 wings quiver covering most of the range.
For the moment, they'd rather sell 4 wings for such a range.$$

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patronus said..

leepasty said..

B Walnut
So, it's a ridiculously complex balance of using the right board to optimize the low end and the right foil to maximize the top end.

Fast foil also gives you more low end as long as you can get on foil. my biggest foil is Glide dlab 750 and biggest wing is Unit dlab 5.5. I can ride from 8 knots no probs and as long as don't drop off foil can keep riding through 6knt lulls. can also stay on this same kit if the wind picks up to around 22knts. (Although id rather be on 4m or 3.5 if it was 22knts especially in waves)
I'm 87 kg and using 85L skybrid for light wind

Do you reckon you need the DLab to get that amount of range out if the Unit?

The 5.5 dlab is magic. compared to standard it gets going in about 3knts less wind and when riding it is faster so better in lulls due to smaller le. This also gives more top end. I only use dlab in 5.5 in 4.5, 3.5 the sls & 3 the standard. if only had 2 wings I'd have 5.5 dlab 4 sls but with travel etc I like to cross over more in case of damage and I prefer small wings. Cape Town soon where I take 4.5,3.5, 3 wing & 8,6 kite pure wave riding. wing downwind/upwinds on nuking days with the 3m are epic out there when no real swell

5 yrs Wing R&D vs 25yrs Kite R&D is one of the most important points, lines vs frame etc. But having used the first wings in 2019 vs a 2025 Unit, the difference in performance is ridiculously better, vs the improvements in Kiting/windsurfing over the last years, it's crazy how fast the whole thing is going. Here in Cape Town we are having a pretty poor season - Kiting/windsurfing, with a SE - approx 1-2times a week at the moment - Winging, 7 days a week. I'd say that speaks for itself already in terms of range of use. Regardless of wind direction, NW, SW, SE, W, you can be out every day on a wing, really only need 2-3 sizes to cover everything from 10-30+knots. On the other hand, when it's on for windsurfing or kiting, with the beach breaks here, hard to beat those toys. Too many toys, not enough time...

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leepasty said..

patronus said..

leepasty said..

B Walnut
So, it's a ridiculously complex balance of using the right board to optimize the low end and the right foil to maximize the top end.

Fast foil also gives you more low end as long as you can get on foil. my biggest foil is Glide dlab 750 and biggest wing is Unit dlab 5.5. I can ride from 8 knots no probs and as long as don't drop off foil can keep riding through 6knt lulls. can also stay on this same kit if the wind picks up to around 22knts. (Although id rather be on 4m or 3.5 if it was 22knts especially in waves)
I'm 87 kg and using 85L skybrid for light wind

Do you reckon you need the DLab to get that amount of range out if the Unit?

The 5.5 dlab is magic. compared to standard it gets going in about 3knts less wind and when riding it is faster so better in lulls due to smaller le. This also gives more top end. I only use dlab in 5.5 in 4.5, 3.5 the sls & 3 the standard. if only had 2 wings I'd have 5.5 dlab 4 sls but with travel etc I like to cross over more in case of damage and I prefer small wings. Cape Town soon where I take 4.5,3.5, 3 wing & 8,6 kite pure wave riding. wing downwind/upwinds on nuking days with the 3m are epic out there when no real swell

Lee, what makes you choose normal 2025 Unit over SLS in smaller size? Is the normal Unit softer hence the preference?

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leepasty said..

patronus said..
Wings share a lot with kites but individual wings have poorer wind range than individual kites. So, to cover a given wind range people end up with maybe 4 wings and 2 foils, whereas a kiter has one board and 1-2 kites. Kites are also comfortable at either end of their wind range, whist wings can be used they are less comfortable. Sure, there is the super-talented (usually light) winger with 1-2 wings out in all conditions, then there is the super-talented kiter out in more.
Any ideas on why that is, and what can be done about it? Seems to be stiffer and more expensive, anything else?

I would actually say wings have more range than kites. if you have a 5.5 & 4m wing you can ride when you cannot kite on a 12m and still be out when kites are on 7m. So on kite with TT you need 12,9,7 to have less low end, but of course can handle more wind than 4m wing if you like kiting maxed on 7m.
in kiting a lot depends on board type for wind range like in winging depends on foils

Not a fair comparison as u need more power for any non foiling sport. U need very little power once flying so you're not comparing apples with apples

Gorgo is onto it

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Mark _australia said..

leepasty said..

patronus said..
Wings share a lot with kites but individual wings have poorer wind range than individual kites. So, to cover a given wind range people end up with maybe 4 wings and 2 foils, whereas a kiter has one board and 1-2 kites. Kites are also comfortable at either end of their wind range, whist wings can be used they are less comfortable. Sure, there is the super-talented (usually light) winger with 1-2 wings out in all conditions, then there is the super-talented kiter out in more.
Any ideas on why that is, and what can be done about it? Seems to be stiffer and more expensive, anything else?

I would actually say wings have more range than kites. if you have a 5.5 & 4m wing you can ride when you cannot kite on a 12m and still be out when kites are on 7m. So on kite with TT you need 12,9,7 to have less low end, but of course can handle more wind than 4m wing if you like kiting maxed on 7m.
in kiting a lot depends on board type for wind range like in winging depends on foils

Not a fair comparison as u need more power for any non foiling sport. U need very little power once flying so you're not comparing apples with apples

Gorgo is onto it

Yah, Gorgo is indeed onto it.

A kite has set sheeting angles. The rider carries the power of the kite with a harness. Much much easier to transfer that power to forward movement and not get pulled onto your toes when you're not grappling the power with your hands. To a large degree thats also true in windsurfing. I would imagine you could handle the power of a wing with more stability if you use a harness

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omg said..

leepasty said..

patronus said..

leepasty said..

B Walnut
So, it's a ridiculously complex balance of using the right board to optimize the low end and the right foil to maximize the top end.

Fast foil also gives you more low end as long as you can get on foil. my biggest foil is Glide dlab 750 and biggest wing is Unit dlab 5.5. I can ride from 8 knots no probs and as long as don't drop off foil can keep riding through 6knt lulls. can also stay on this same kit if the wind picks up to around 22knts. (Although id rather be on 4m or 3.5 if it was 22knts especially in waves)
I'm 87 kg and using 85L skybrid for light wind

Do you reckon you need the DLab to get that amount of range out if the Unit?

The 5.5 dlab is magic. compared to standard it gets going in about 3knts less wind and when riding it is faster so better in lulls due to smaller le. This also gives more top end. I only use dlab in 5.5 in 4.5, 3.5 the sls & 3 the standard. if only had 2 wings I'd have 5.5 dlab 4 sls but with travel etc I like to cross over more in case of damage and I prefer small wings. Cape Town soon where I take 4.5,3.5, 3 wing & 8,6 kite pure wave riding. wing downwind/upwinds on nuking days with the 3m are epic out there when no real swell

Lee, what makes you choose normal 2025 Unit over SLS in smaller size? Is the normal Unit softer hence the preference?

several things
Wind is always gustier if I'm on 3m it's howling.
also smaller wings are much stiffer so not so much need for stiffer material. The 3m standard inflates to 9.5 psi where as the 5.5 standard is 6 psi I think. also it's cheaper

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BWalnut said..
I don't think most riders actualize the full wind range of the wings so they feel worse than they really are.

That.

When my wife started winging, she used a 4.2 m wing in anything from 12 to 30 knots. It was the only wing she had, and she never once complained. After she added a 3.3 and then a 2.5 m wing, comments about being over- or underpowered have become a lot more common, even though her overall skills have progressed a lot. But if it's one of those days where the wind starts at 15 knots, and then drops to 10 or increases to 30 knots, she'll still stay on the 4.2 rather than switching to a different size most of the time.

As we accumulate more toys, we get more spoiled, and want to have just the right toy for a given set of conditions (although that does not apply to her foils, where she's gone from 2-3 sizes to a single size).

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boardsurfr said..

As we accumulate more toys, we get more spoiled, and want to have just the right toy for a given set of conditions (although that does not apply to her foils, where she's gone from 2-3 sizes to a single size).

100%
I have 3 boards, 3 foils, 6 wings.

I could definitely get rid of stuff, my quiver is excessive, but I can also say I have what feels like the "perfect" kit for 10-20, and the "perfect kit for 20-30, and the "perfect kit" for 30+

Completely spoiled!

Might depend a lot on the conditions in the spots where you a riding, and many other factors. I would put it the other way around instead - why are wings so good?

I am using 2.5, 3.0 and 3.6 m2 wings the most, 2 boards and 2 different front wings, and often there are no kites in the water at all, despite this being a crazy popular kite surfing spot. If there are kites they are usually on sizes 5 - 8 m2 (or 6-12 m2 for the bigger guys) depending on a day. I am not counting the ones who don't use the energy of the waves that much (twin tip riders would go crazy with their kite sizes). So, merely ca 1 m2 difference between the smallest and largest wing, compared to a solid 3-4 m2 difference easy for the ones who kite. That said, kite foiling is not that popular around here, a few are learning, but are using super big kites, a few can do it but have lost interest.

If you find the usable range of your wings to be too small, perhaps your entire setup and the technique as well can be optimised and fine tuned a bit?