Hi, struggling to get the feel of the foil, never had much trouble with the instructors ones, but when I'm on my own I'm struggling to control it.
I'm 72kg with an Armstrong 1550v2 HS (also have 1250 and 1850) the fuse is 70 and the stab 232. I am using in on the Armstrong 99, but even when I have the foil right back and have my weight nearly all on the front foot, I still feel like I need to be way too far forward on the board.
Am I missing something? I feel like I shouldn't need to have the foil right back and my feet at the front of the footstraps holes to avoid breaching as soon as I get a bit of speed?

Any thoughts welcome

it could be a combination of a big front foil and a long fuse + big stab, how long have you been foiling for?

That seems odd to me, though I never rode a 70 cm fuse. I have ridden those foils with a 60cm fuse and same tail in the past though and rode them much further forward. Out of curiosity, which tail shim are you using? All the foils you own are needing this position and stance? Has an experienced foiler tried your rig?

I also had the 1550v2 as my first wingfoil foil. It's a very high lift foil and can cruise at incredibly low speeds but anything above say 16kts its gets increasingly hard to keep it in the water. You also have a 70cm fuse which is not helping in this situation as it provides more leverage to the stabiliser. You're also light, about the same as me, and that also doesn't help when going fast in terms of keeping the foil in the water.

First thing, as above, what if any shims are you running? if you're running none, leave everything in the same position and add 1 blue shim to the tail stabiliser, see how that goes. This is how I used to ride that foil. Still too much lift, try a red shim but note that by adding bigger shims and reducing relative stabiliser angle the whole setup will become more and more pitch unstable.

The 1550v2 is not a foil that can comfortably rip around at 20kts, it's just too high lift and has to be pushed to hard to get to those speeds. If you've come from a longtime windsurfing background this can seem very foreign as windsurfing, particularly slalom, is massively back foot orientated which is basically entirely the opposite to foiling.

The 1550v2 and 232 was one of my first foils (along with the 2400!). Great for learning. That setup was around mid-track on my FG99l board and feet comfortably positioned on the board, although I've only ever used the 60cm fuse.
Can you get someone to take a video of you? That would be really helpful to see what's going on.

"What am I doing wrong?"

Using footstraps.

Well at least IMO, I know ex windsurfers in particular like to have their feet strapped in but it is truly very limiting and completely unnecessary until you want to start jumping.

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tightlines said..
"What am I doing wrong?"

Using footstraps.

Well at least IMO, I know ex windsurfers in particular like to have their feet strapped in but it is truly very limiting and completely unnecessary until you want to start jumping.

No way I could use footstraps at the moment , my feet are often too far forward relative to the screwholes

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CJW said..
I also had the 1550v2 as my first wingfoil foil. It's a very high lift foil and can cruise at incredibly low speeds but anything above say 16kts its gets increasingly hard to keep it in the water. You also have a 70cm fuse which is not helping in this situation as it provides more leverage to the stabiliser. You're also light, about the same as me, and that also doesn't help when going fast in terms of keeping the foil in the water.

First thing, as above, what if any shims are you running? if you're running none, leave everything in the same position and add 1 blue shim to the tail stabiliser, see how that goes. This is how I used to ride that foil. Still too much lift, try a red shim but note that by adding bigger shims and reducing relative stabiliser angle the whole setup will become more and more pitch unstable.

The 1550v2 is not a foil that can comfortably rip around at 20kts, it's just too high lift and has to be pushed to hard to get to those speeds. If you've come from a longtime windsurfing background this can seem very foreign as windsurfing, particularly slalom, is massively back foot orientated which is basically entirely the opposite to foiling.

Thanks,

This reply sounds very close to what I feel is happening. Things arn't that bad at slower speeds, then I get a bit of a gust, power in the wing and need to press super hard on the front foot. All that power and pressure translates into speed and once I start going faster and faster I feel like there is no amount of pressure I can put forwards that will keep me in the water.

I had been wondering about the 70cm fuse, it did feel like there was something about the combination that was overpowering the lift, would this be a factor? I had been thinking about changing to a 60, would this help or would it be better to go for a lower lift foil? I like the fact that the 1550v2 has a low stall speed and don't want to give that up.
Would you have a recommendation for a front wing that suits a 70kg rider for 10-18kts with a 5m?
I felt like I need to change something and was planning to get a 60 fuse but would a new front wing/stab combo be much better?

The last paragraph is something I have been working on and the last session I was spending a lot of time with my back foot up on my toes to avoid over using the back foot.

Much appreciated, Tom

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kiwiupover said..
The 1550v2 and 232 was one of my first foils (along with the 2400!). Great for learning. That setup was around mid-track on my FG99l board and feet comfortably positioned on the board, although I've only ever used the 60cm fuse.
Can you get someone to take a video of you? That would be really helpful to see what's going on.

Thanks,

I am planning to get a friend about similar weight to try my setup.
How heavy are you?
What setup have you progressed to now for lighter wind 10-15 KTS?

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ojfoil said..
it could be a combination of a big front foil and a long fuse + big stab, how long have you been foiling for?

About a year properly. When it clicks I am totally comfortable winging on both tacks in moderate chop, but I feel like I am battling lift alot.

Could you explain to me the dynamics of the stab? What would a smaller stab do to the feel of the foil?

Thank you

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windsurftom said..

kiwiupover said..
The 1550v2 and 232 was one of my first foils (along with the 2400!). Great for learning. That setup was around mid-track on my FG99l board and feet comfortably positioned on the board, although I've only ever used the 60cm fuse.
Can you get someone to take a video of you? That would be really helpful to see what's going on.

Thanks,

I am planning to get a friend about similar weight to try my setup.
How heavy are you?
What setup have you progressed to now for lighter wind 10-15 KTS?

About 100kg/220lb fully loaded up. So you'll want to drop down a foil size (or two) relative to me.
I went from the 1550/2400 to the MA 1225 and 1750 then to the HA 880 and 1180. The 1180 is my light wind option. The 1225 will probably be your 1550 replacement. I found the tails made a big difference too as I was progressing, but your longer 70cm fuse will be adding more lift/front foot pressure. I liked the 235 tail more than the 232 because it had more speed and front foot pressure. Then once I got used to the 235, the 220 was another good switch which again had more speed and front foot pressure. Then I added the 180. I'm only using the 220 and 180 now.

Dropping to the 60 cm fuse is a good idea regardless of your foils to reduce some of the upward leverage of the longer 70cm fuse.

Whenever I couldn't feel the foil properly it was mounted too far back in the tracks. Try putting it much more forward.

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windsurftom said..

ojfoil said..
it could be a combination of a big front foil and a long fuse + big stab, how long have you been foiling for?

About a year properly. When it clicks I am totally comfortable winging on both tacks in moderate chop, but I feel like I am battling lift alot.

Could you explain to me the dynamics of the stab? What would a smaller stab do to the feel of the foil?

Thank you

The stabiliser and it's relationship to the front wing governs the whole overall 'pitch stability' of the system. The 1550 with a 232 tail is a very 'pitch stable' but powerful foil setup but only within a certain speed range. Because the 1550 is quite an asymmetric and high camber foil profile, which gives it such a good low end, even at 0deg angle of attack it's still creating lift, which is why once you get over a certain speed it takes a massive amount of front foot pressure to keep it in the water. The HA and MA profiles, generally, are much more symmetric in profile, with much shorter chords, meaning that at high speeds they are much more forgiving, but they trade low end to achieve that.

Changing to a 60cm fuse will help as it reduces the leverage of the stab, same as adding shims (reduces the relative angle between the front wing and stabiliser), changing to a smaller tail will also achieve a similar thing, all those options will mean that the whole system won't be a pitch stable. As I said earlier, stick with what you have and try different shim combos first, see if you can find a good balance.

I weigh 73kg and when I was learning used to run a 1550v2, 60cm fuse, 232tail with 1 blue shim on an 85cm mast. Great combo for learning but the foil was near the back of the box compared to what I run now. My go-to setup now is HA925, 70cm fuse, speed180 tail, 1 blue shim. With this setup the 60cm-70cm fuse doesn't make a huge difference but for ripping around at speed the 70cm is a bit more comfortable but it is way more comfortable at speed than the 1550 setup.

Like I said, if you are a long time windsurfer, changing that muscle memory of high backfoot loading takes a fair while as that's the default for windsurfing, but stick with it, it will come. Also I would add front straps, I don't know why anyone suggests foiling without them, particularly when learning and particularly with a windsurf background. What straps give you is a common position for your front feet ALL the time, which is super important as it keep the feel consistent, otherwise the loading is moving all over the place. Also massively beneficial when learning foot switches and tacking etc, would be incredibly difficult without straps. Zero back strap helps you move that back foot forward or back to help control the lift if going upwind/downwind etc.

Are We talking about Wing foiling .If so my be your over sized on the hand wing have you balanced the board I would think that it should be around 6 to 8 on the track and at your weight my just start ridding the MA 1250 .

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Gone to dark side said..
Are We talking about Wing foiling .If so my be your over sized on the hand wing have you balanced the board I would think that it should be around 6 to 8 on the track and at your weight my just start ridding the MA 1250 .

Have a look on you tube "Finding the perfect track position " very helpful ??????

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windsurftom said..
Hi, struggling to get the feel of the foil, never had much trouble with the instructors ones, but when I'm on my own I'm struggling to control it.
I'm 72kg with an Armstrong 1550v2 HS (also have 1250 and 1850) the fuse is 70 and the stab 232. I am using in on the Armstrong 99, but even when I have the foil right back and have my weight nearly all on the front foot, I still feel like I need to be way too far forward on the board.
Am I missing something? I feel like I shouldn't need to have the foil right back and my feet at the front of the footstraps holes to avoid breaching as soon as I get a bit of speed?

Any thoughts welcome

Since you probably don't want to hear that you just suck and need more practice, I'll give you several scenarios: old lifty foil with long fuse and normal stab with old wide board. Gets going easy, but when you speed up going off the wind on some windswell you can't get your weight forward fast enough to angle down and breach. You use a smaller stab and now find it easier for pitch control, but have lost some low end. And your jibes just dont feel right. You get a bigger stab can now stomp on the tail and really glide through lulls and have easy take offs. You can make a smaller wing work, so you don't breach as often. All your buddies pass you, so buy the latest and greatest glidey foil with a medium fuse. You just can't get the old board to lift unless you are lit. Now you are thinking your new foil has no range as it feels too big. You try different stabs, mast placement, but it's just not right. You buy a midlength board and all of a sudden you can take off easily and ride a smaller wing and use the range of the foil and it all feels good...

Learn to ride the front foil in it's range. Some foils just won't work when run at top speed over powered by too much wing. Some need a lot of speed to lift... Footstraps are for jumping and going fast, worthless for just winging and having fun. Mast goes back/forward so you can stand where you want.

When I get a new setup, I spend a lot of time moving around on the board pumping to get a feel for the foil. I'll move the mast so that my feet are even on the board in relation to the balance point of the foil and where the pads are. A Gofoil V2 might mean there is no chance of using foot straps as the tracks aren't far enough back. A Code S might mean the board is too nose heavy as the tracks aren't forward enough... Your gear and board should be well matched (and what you have is matched. Just might not be right for you...)

This is a frustrating sport where too often the latest is touted as the greatest. You can go out on any foil and have fun, just spend time up on foil as much as possible and try to make it work. Then experiment with minor changes. Did I mention, take off your straps!

Thanks for all the advice
I bought a shorter fuse (TC60) and tried it for the first time today. What a massive difference it made. I put a blue shim on it and for the first time in months I felt in control again. It was so much easier to move up and down in the water and easier to point upwind or downwind. It was still a bit of a handful when going fast instead of cruising.
I will give it a few more months and then will think about the next front wing/ stab combo. Keen for something with a low stall speed, but not quite as powerful

What a stabiliser does, and why you need a smaller one.
You taxi along, front foil is taking off, and climbing, and would continue to climb until it breached, but that doesn't happen because you shift your weight forwards to level the board out and cruise. But, ....let's imagine you forgot to fit a stabiliser.... You shift your weight forwards to level the board out, but the board doesn't fly level, it starts to dive and crashes back to water. This happens because there is no countering effect to bring the front foil out of it's dive. The stabiliser is designed to exert downward force, this force acts through the fuselage to bring the front foil up. ( Out of that 'dive' and again to start climbing, whereupon you apply your weight to counteract that climbing, and get level flight.). And so it goes. Now you are foiling faster, that same stabiliser is pushing harder downwards ( basically it's flying upside down) which is levering the front foil into a steeper angle of attack, which will result in the foil climbing towards breaching as you aren't heavy enough to comfortably oppose the lift. A shorter fuse cuts down the leverage, and perceived lift, but a better choice would be a smaller stabiliser, which will allow you to move the mast forward, and or get your front foot back .

I'm 95 kg and currently on the newer S1 1850, 75 fuse and 300 stab. It's basically the starter kit with Alloy mast. I have the mast a wee bit further back from the middle.not much though. I'm finding it an excellent starter kit and really user friendly. Before splashing out on heaps of new bits and pieces I would thoroughly recommend getting an experienced foiler around the same weight to have a go on your set up. Previously I was convinced I had the gear set up all wrong but after a good foiler had a go it turned out all the issues were my lack of skill!

Sounds like you've solved a bit of a problem with a new fuse. All I would say if you keep changing bits and pieces here and there it is really tricky to dial things in as you are constantly changing things which will have a big impact.
Good luck though.it's not as easy sport for learners

@windsurftom looks like at this point you have enough riding experience that switching to a smaller stab and shorter fuselage worked out well for you. But that was not the only way you could have got a good feel out of your foil. You could have simply tried shimming the stabiliser way sooner.

I am also 72 kg, and while learning, instead of switching to a shorter fuselage and a smaller stab, I started playing with the shimming pretty much from the day one. It was easy for me to feel what needs to be changed, because I had former wind foiling experience.

Here's a clip of just 12th day of wing foiling, with a big 316 cm2 beginner stabiliser and with a very lifty 1350 cm2 front wing (really, that had enormous amount of lift for my light weight), and a long fuselage (70 cm measured from the front of the front wing to the end of the fuselage). Placing that huge stabiliser at an angle that's well matched to my weight and to the speed range that I was after at that time, made this foil super easy and playful, despite of the powerful front wing, and a long fuselage. It allowed moving the mast further forward which improved the stability and turning and everything. The thing is, if a light weight rider would simply take a powerful foil (that would work just fine for a heavier rider), move the mast further back (or step further forward on the board) you would become very disconnected from the foil, the turns and pumping and everything would become stiff and difficult, you would breach a lot when going faster, and that would all hinder the progress a lot.

Nothing much to see in the clip, but just in the very beginning there are some examples of how effortlessly that powerful setup pumps once properly shimmed. It's well worth finding the best tuning for your foil in the very beginning of the learning curve.

Foil Tuning Tips - Finding the Sweet Spot[/b] ?? Set your mast in the middle of the track[/b] to start with. Do a quick balance check:[/b] Lift the board by placing your palm under the front wing (around the middle), and the board should hang parallel to the ground[/i]. This gives a good neutral balance.
On the water:[/b] Start riding without straps. As you're moving, slowly shift your front and back foot slightly backwards[/b] until the nose starts to lift. Keep inching back gently until you lift up on foil. ?? This is your reference foot position over that[/i] foil setup.
Remember:[/b] If you move the foil back[/b], move your feet back[/b] If you move the foil forward[/b], move your feet forward[/b] Your feet should always stay in the same relative spot over the foil's lift point.
Straps (Step Two):[/b] Once you add straps, your feet are locked in-so you now tune foil position only.
Move foil back[/b] = more control[/b], as your body weight shifts further over it
Move foil forward[/b] = more lift[/b], but can get twitchy if too far ?? Again, it's all about finding the right position over the foil[/i] for your riding style.