Hey, I am 85kg [with wetsuit] and currently ride 5'0 85L board and my local spot gets very choppy with bigger wind swell. Sometimes I am really struggling with balance before I get going as the board is rocking in all directions as it floats right on top of the water. I was wondering if sinker board, like 60L, would not be easier as you can sink it under ? My friend is using 55l midlenght and doesnt struggle with the chop. What are your thoughts ?

You will struggle more with sinker in all conditions. Specially in choppy conditions. It way harder to balance on.

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LucasUK said..
Hey, I am 85kg [with wetsuit] and currently ride 5'0 85L board and my local spot gets very choppy with bigger wind swell. Sometimes I am really struggling with balance before I get going as the board is rocking in all directions as it floats right on top of the water. I was wondering if sinker board, like 60L, would not be easier as you can sink it under ? My friend is using 55l midlenght and doesnt struggle with the chop. What are your thoughts ?

Longer and narrower is easier. I'm 87kg and went from 4'9 65L to 5'1 50L and way easier to get going. in no wind easier to stand on as sinks more so less corky. If you are in Uk I have my board from last feb for sale

Pros and cons for sure. Some people will report that sinkers really help them in choppy conditions. I, on the other hand, at 86kg have no problem on a 90l but find a 66l to be mildly harder but not extremely worse.

I think it really comes down to what type of stabilization most people are comfortable with. Add in starting technique and kit priorities to get different reports. I never stinkbug, even on tiny boards, I just kneel on the board with the wing across the deck (forming a plus sign) and am incredibly stable in that position. Then I snap the wing up into my hands and am off to the races. The low volume midlength boards are great in strong winds but the neutral volume boards have much better slog, prone paddle, low end characteristics.

So, you might consider going to a longer board. A 5' 85l board is going to be far less stable than a 6' 85l board because the fore to aft stabilization needs are dramatically decreased.

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BWalnut said..
Pros and cons for sure. Some people will report that sinkers really help them in choppy conditions. I, on the other hand, at 86kg have no problem on a 90l but find a 66l to be mildly harder but not extremely worse.

I think it really comes down to what type of stabilization most people are comfortable with. Add in starting technique and kit priorities to get different reports. I never stinkbug, even on tiny boards, I just kneel on the board with the wing across the deck (forming a plus sign) and am incredibly stable in that position. Then I snap the wing up into my hands and am off to the races. The low volume midlength boards are great in strong winds but the neutral volume boards have much better slog, prone paddle, low end characteristics.

So, you might consider going to a longer board. A 5' 85l board is going to be far less stable than a 6' 85l board because the fore to aft stabilization needs are dramatically decreased.

i was thinking either Armstrong 5'5 55L or F-one Rocket S 5'0 60L

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The armstrong dims look like it will takeoff great but the 18" wide will not be as fun in the air. When I try to throw around an 18" board I need my toes hanging off the edge of the deck and the armstrong boards normally have unique deck shapes right?

The f-one might be more fun in flight, but nowhere near as easy to get out of the water.

My quiver/board history:
www.wouzel.com/post/board-history-living-document

Currently on these three Sunovas:

Aviator 18

6'6"x18" 90l

11.25lbs

BAR*GF: 4.53

Phenomenal takeoff, a touch narrow for my style. Excellent choice for sailing far from home.

Carver

5'11"x20" 77l

10.5lbs

BAR*GF: 3.18

Currently riding and testing. Great all around. Slogging is doable but a small challenge.

Pilot

5'9"x20" 65l

9.3lbs

BAR*GF: 2.61

Currently riding and testing. Awesome in solid wind. Can't really slog it though, just have to give up and prone paddle home.

So if you want a sinker I'd go with a custom Pilot to match the dims you like or you could try something like this:
omenfoils.com/collections/boards/products/emissary-hp
Which I haven't ridden yet but would expect great performance out of.

I have no idea why my response is getting broken into so many "quote" boxes. Sorry about that!

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BWalnut said..
I have no idea why my response is getting broken into so many "quote" boxes. Sorry about that!

would say looks very similar to the armstrong midlenght

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LucasUK said..

BWalnut said..
I have no idea why my response is getting broken into so many "quote" boxes. Sorry about that!

would say looks very similar to the armstrong midlenght

I find the Armstrong too narrow for wing in mega chop. around 20 wide is good I find. here I'm on the 5'1 x 20 50L couple months ago www.instagram.com/reel/DBtfUAlorLz/?igsh=OW84ajRuc25hNDc4

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leepasty said..

LucasUK said..

BWalnut said..
I have no idea why my response is getting broken into so many "quote" boxes. Sorry about that!

would say looks very similar to the armstrong midlenght

I find the Armstrong too narrow for wing in mega chop. around 20 wide is good I find. here I'm on the 5'1 x 20 50L couple months ago www.instagram.com/reel/DBtfUAlorLz/?igsh=OW84ajRuc25hNDc4

Similar and I know it seems crazy but I agree with Leepasty 18" in width is tough. I'm willing to try a 19" but otherwise all my future boards are going to be focused around 20" which I've found to be perfect.

I'm probably in a good position to reply to this. I tried Sunova Pilot and Sunova Pilot Midlength, both close to 50 litres. Both great boards. Stability was similar in both directions. I've gone the Midlength because of paddle speed for prone. For wing, pop up on foil is really good once board is on the surface, so I usually let it ride to the surface while on my knees before popping up. Touch downs are amazing on midlength. Beautifully balanced and very happy with the turning.

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AUS126 said..
I'm probably in a good position to reply to this. I tried Sunova Pilot and Sunova Pilot Midlength, both close to 50 litres. Both great boards. Stability was similar in both directions. I've gone the Midlength because of paddle speed for prone. For wing, pop up on foil is really good once board is on the surface, so I usually let it ride to the surface while on my knees before popping up. Touch downs are amazing on midlength. Beautifully balanced and very happy with the turning.

I'm thinking of getting a pilot mid this spring. I want a lower volume midlength for wing and prone. What dimensions did you get? What foils are you riding it with and how is the box placement? If I got custom dims any suggestions? Any other review notes would be really helpful. Sorry to derail the topic, might be better for a PM or separate thread.
thanks

Back to your question.
When I bought my wing board the shaper told me to try a version with less volume as well. He was convinced that a board with 60 to 70% of your weight in volume is easier to control while starting (from swimming to standing on your board and moving forward at/near the surface). The idea is to take a low volume so you can push your board under the surface, so the surface chop doesn't pull on the board. You will need a serious difference between your weight and the volume off the board to reap the benefits. 10% under your weight will not do the trick,

I could only try that 60l board (I'm 86kg but have to wear full wetsuits most of the year) on a local lake, with consistent wind. Starting was reamrkably easy, but conditions were not challenging. At the end off the session the wind dropped suddenly and I needed to slog back. That was hard work because I was sinking to my knees and hips in the lulls (and I didn't have the skills to keep standing).
I decided then to go for a volume close to my body weight, which was on stock, as a 1-board-quiver. The first 3 sessions at rather turbulent waters were a mixture of pleasure and frustration. Frustration, because it was really hard to restart in the chop/current and the board kept corking away. I've heard some other local rider's swear and scream of frustration from corking boards.

In the mean time, my skills have improved and I also bought a board with 135% volume to weight (downwind SUP board). Because I don't need to restart as frequently, I love the weight-volume board for winging. I can kind-of slogg back with a little bit of wind and I'm better at (stink bug) starting so the corking isn't ruining my sessions. Because off the larger board I now would love to have a 50 to 60 litre board with a longer and narrower shape, instead of the board that is close to my weight. I'm convinced that it will be easier in the initial start and will be on foil with minimal extra effort. Only reasons not to do it are (1) budget and (2) slogging/paddling back in.


So, I disagree with "retina', but can not support my opinion with a lot of actual experience.

Im 80kg 3 years of wingfoiling wave riding, have 42l 54l 60l 85l 110l and 125l. My go to for easy start is 85l. In choppy conditions it's harder for me to get up on foil fast with sinker. One chop hits me while trying to balance on the sinker I loose balance and I'm down and have to go for it again. That almost never happens with same weight volume.

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FlyingPeew said..
Back to your question.
When I bought my wing board the shaper told me to try a version with less volume as well. He was convinced that a board with 60 to 70% of your weight in volume is easier to control while starting (from swimming to standing on your board and moving forward at/near the surface). The idea is to take a low volume so you can push your board under the surface, so the surface chop doesn't pull on the board. You will need a serious difference between your weight and the volume off the board to reap the benefits. 10% under your weight will not do the trick,

I could only try that 60l board (I'm 86kg but have to wear full wetsuits most of the year) on a local lake, with consistent wind. Starting was reamrkably easy, but conditions were not challenging. At the end off the session the wind dropped suddenly and I needed to slog back. That was hard work because I was sinking to my knees and hips in the lulls (and I didn't have the skills to keep standing).
I decided then to go for a volume close to my body weight, which was on stock, as a 1-board-quiver. The first 3 sessions at rather turbulent waters were a mixture of pleasure and frustration. Frustration, because it was really hard to restart in the chop/current and the board kept corking away. I've heard some other local rider's swear and scream of frustration from corking boards.

In the mean time, my skills have improved and I also bought a board with 135% volume to weight (downwind SUP board). Because I don't need to restart as frequently, I love the weight-volume board for winging. I can kind-of slogg back with a little bit of wind and I'm better at (stink bug) starting so the corking isn't ruining my sessions. Because off the larger board I now would love to have a 50 to 60 litre board with a longer and narrower shape, instead of the board that is close to my weight. I'm convinced that it will be easier in the initial start and will be on foil with minimal extra effort. Only reasons not to do it are (1) budget and (2) slogging/paddling back in.


So, I disagree with "retina', but can not support my opinion with a lot of actual experience.

realy nice input, have same opinion

I recently aquired a 90L board (I'm 100kgs), where previously my largest board was 75L.

Fun thing is, both boards are the same width, but the 75L is 5'4 and the 90L is 4'10. I find the 75L way easier to get up and standing on, and I'm still on the fence about which one is easier to get up on foil. I also have a 5'0 56L, which is rather small for my weight and requires a lot of wind for me to get going (20+ knot gust with 750cm2 foil and 5m wing). Also really sinky when landing tricks so I basically never ride it.

For reference, the 75L is 25L below my body weight, same as the 60L would be for you. It was my only board for 2 years and really does not impact my low end performance in any margin over the 90L board I just got. I got the 90L board to have a little more float when landing tricks (flaka, jumps, aerial jibes).

I was talking with Greg from Omen and he said he thought that around .6 x weight in kg was the sweet spot (at least for the Flux), and that something just under your weight was harder

Similar story here. 96kg running the unifoil quiver killer 73L (5.10x20") as my daily driver and the qk 55l (5.6x20") for gorge days/prone. They are rebranded Portal Enigmas. If Unifoil ever get them back in stock would highly recommend.

@bwalnut, totally agree on the ~20" being a golden width, have demo'ed the armie ml 65 and 55 with <20" while doable wasn't ideal for my stocky build. Wondering if there is a correlation to hip width?

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ilboarder12 said..
Similar story here. 96kg running the unifoil quiver killer 73L (5.10x20") as my daily driver and the qk 55l (5.6x20") for gorge days/prone. They are rebranded Portal Enigmas. If Unifoil ever get them back in stock would highly recommend.

@bwalnut, totally agree on the ~20" being a golden width, have demo'ed the armie ml 65 and 55 with <20" while doable wasn't ideal for my stocky build. Wondering if there is a correlation to hip width?

Interesting idea on hip width. I'm stocky too. I need some leverage over the foils and 18" wide feels better with super low span foils that don't need much input and want to go fast/straight vs more average span foils which need a bit of a nudge. 20" just feels like it gives me full command over every foil and can get rail to rail faster because I can give more dramatic inputs at the edges.

Casey mentioned it in one of his podcasts but didn't expand on the point. I think the quote was "20" boards are more fun to turn than 18" boards."

It would be interesting to look at mast length in these situations too. I could imagine a short mast, 65cm, being more enjoyable with an 18" board since the mast is so responsive and quicker to get rail to rail. Almost nobody is ripping around on a 65cm mast anymore but if the funds allow I might pick one up again this year.

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BWalnut said..
Pros and cons for sure. Some people will report that sinkers really help them in choppy conditions. I, on the other hand, at 86kg have no problem on a 90l but find a 66l to be mildly harder but not extremely worse.

I think it really comes down to what type of stabilization most people are comfortable with. Add in starting technique and kit priorities to get different reports. I never stinkbug, even on tiny boards, I just kneel on the board with the wing across the deck (forming a plus sign) and am incredibly stable in that position. Then I snap the wing up into my hands and am off to the races. The low volume midlength boards are great in strong winds but the neutral volume boards have much better slog, prone paddle, low end characteristics.

So, you might consider going to a longer board. A 5' 85l board is going to be far less stable than a 6' 85l board because the fore to aft stabilization needs are dramatically decreased.

Please expand on the wing position for this starting technique. Is the strut just laying on top of the board with you pressing down on the top of the wing? I think I recall in your prior postings that you have a strong preference for small wings. Would a larger wing make this starting technique unusable?

Filmed it instead of trying to explain it. I get asked for this often so I needed to do it anyways. Works with all wings, foils, boards, in all sea conditions and wind speeds.

www.instagram.com/reel/DEanJd9yzdP/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link&igsh=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

I owned and tried a big variety of boards and as written before in various topics, length is imo way more imporant as volume for both stability when starting as in getting on the foil.
Longer boards allow shapes also to become less thick and that helps with balance as well.I,m 188cmx 97kg+ ad a full suit all year so surf ready realistcly 100kg (+) and I,m riding a KT5.4x22x56l Wingdrifter from 2022 and a 6.5x22x92l SuperK.
I owned and demoed shorter boards, but most of them are corky and have the tendency to flip under you when you try to balance them while kneestarting.

I,m as stiff as hell so the stinkbug doesnt work really for me. I just climb on my board nose half wind, wing Downwind, me sitting on my knees ass to the wind, face DW to the wing. I grab the wing at the fronthandle for balance as a seccundairy stabilizer and once i,m ready I pull it over my head and stand up.
This way i,m as quick standing on the 5.4x22x56l as with an Fanatic Easteregg4.11x75l and quicker on the foil.

btw: Regarding boardwidth: I think there is a corelation between rider skill, weight and especially length.Being tall I have a higher centre of gravity. I tried various 18/20 and 22 to boards and for ME the 22 are more comfortable without the downsides as the 20,s. I can totally see that for someone around 165 and close to half my weight (lets say 50kg) 18 will be perfect.

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BWalnut said..
Filmed it instead of trying to explain it. I get asked for this often so I needed to do it anyways. Works with all wings, foils, boards, in all sea conditions and wind speeds.

www.instagram.com/reel/DEanJd9yzdP/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link&igsh=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

Great explanation but seems like once wing overhead don't you just roll or how do you get crosswind quick?

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patronus said..

BWalnut said..
Filmed it instead of trying to explain it. I get asked for this often so I needed to do it anyways. Works with all wings, foils, boards, in all sea conditions and wind speeds.

www.instagram.com/reel/DEanJd9yzdP/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link&igsh=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

Great explanation but seems like once wing overhead don't you just roll or how do you get crosswind quick?

What do you mean by roll? Tip over? If so that's not an issue if you have wind in the sail. Lift the wing straight up, catch wind, turn crosswind. Easy breezy.

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BWalnut said..
Filmed it instead of trying to explain it. I get asked for this often so I needed to do it anyways. Works with all wings, foils, boards, in all sea conditions and wind speeds.

www.instagram.com/reel/DEanJd9yzdP/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link&igsh=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

Excellent explanation. I'll give it a go.

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choosywinger said..

BWalnut said..
Filmed it instead of trying to explain it. I get asked for this often so I needed to do it anyways. Works with all wings, foils, boards, in all sea conditions and wind speeds.

www.instagram.com/reel/DEanJd9yzdP/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link&igsh=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

Excellent explanation. I'll give it a go.

Please report back on how it goes!

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BWalnut said..

patronus said..

BWalnut said..
Filmed it instead of trying to explain it. I get asked for this often so I needed to do it anyways. Works with all wings, foils, boards, in all sea conditions and wind speeds.

www.instagram.com/reel/DEanJd9yzdP/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link&igsh=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

Great explanation but seems like once wing overhead don't you just roll or how do you get crosswind quick?

What do you mean by roll? Tip over? If so that's not an issue if you have wind in the sail. Lift the wing straight up, catch wind, turn crosswind. Easy breezy.

Stink bug my board is 90 degrees to wind, swell and chop so rolls side to side. I stabilise the board with wing on the water and when raised above my head use the power in the wind to help balance the side to side roll. In your method I think the board is dead downwind when wing is raised so does the board still roll side-to-side, and how do you turn to 90 degrees (on your knees or after getting to feet?).Video on the water would be great.

Bryan

I watched your video and explanation and it's pretty much the technique I've worked out since Ive dropped to sub 20" wide boards.
I went out today and reconfirmed by kneeling with my knees side by side and holding myself steady by pushing down on the wing on the water, pointing downwind a bit longer than usual, just relaxing and waiting for a good gust instead of trying to spin the board across the wind (where you usually get whacked by a chop, wave or swell).
When the gust is enough to put pressure in the wing, pull wing overhead, get a little bit of forward motion for stability, then spin the whole rig across the wind, get up to my feet and pump board/wing as needed.

The key tips you gave that helped me refine my technique were
- keep board pointed downwind, straddle the board, then draw knees up and under
- holding the wing flat on the water and staying relaxed pointing downwind
- yes, there is a moment of instability when you go to lift the wing, as suggested, make this movement as smooth and as quick as possible
- once the wing is in your hands, if there is pressure in the wing, you can turn across the wind and stand up and get going

Mistakes I made were
- not pointing directly downwind and getting pushed off the board by chop
- trying to turn across the wind too quickly, or without enough forward board speed, once again you are vulnerable to being pitched off sideways

Thank you so much for taking the time and effort to make this little tutorial

Am i the only one that doesn't like the longer and narrow(er) boards? Yes they come up foil fast and yes the glide is awesome. But i'm a jumper and i simply miss a stable platform to land on. I've been riding a KT Ginxu V2 in 62L for a while and because its pretty narrow in the nose, after a jump or freestyle move, it just doesn t bounce back on foil. Its a great board for waves and free Flying, but thats it IMO.

I now have a new Gong Lemon FSP ' 25 on order. 4'10 and wide in the nose. It might come up foil a little less early then the KT, but i dont care.

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camerongraham said..
Bryan

I watched your video and explanation and it's pretty much the technique I've worked out since Ive dropped to sub 20" wide boards.
I went out today and reconfirmed by kneeling with my knees side by side and holding myself steady by pushing down on the wing on the water, pointing downwind a bit longer than usual, just relaxing and waiting for a good gust instead of trying to spin the board across the wind (where you usually get whacked by a chop, wave or swell).
When the gust is enough to put pressure in the wing, pull wing overhead, get a little bit of forward motion for stability, then spin the whole rig across the wind, get up to my feet and pump board/wing as needed.

The key tips you gave that helped me refine my technique were
- keep board pointed downwind, straddle the board, then draw knees up and under
- holding the wing flat on the water and staying relaxed pointing downwind
- yes, there is a moment of instability when you go to lift the wing, as suggested, make this movement as smooth and as quick as possible
- once the wing is in your hands, if there is pressure in the wing, you can turn across the wind and stand up and get going

Mistakes I made were
- not pointing directly downwind and getting pushed off the board by chop
- trying to turn across the wind too quickly, or without enough forward board speed, once again you are vulnerable to being pitched off sideways

Thank you so much for taking the time and effort to make this little tutorial

Helpful discussion...and not at all to minimize the setup that Bryan focuses on, but my biggest challenges have always been after getting to my feet and pumping onto foil while dealing with big chop (typically getting pitched to leeward by a wave while going crosswind, surviving that then getting rolled back to windward and falling off in that direction while board launches away from me (mostly downwind).

It has been a big help to me to spend extra time relaxing and being comfortable/stable in big chop/swell (like you I straddle the board)...between getting some energy back, the confident mindset it brings, and getting a good feel for the conditions really helps

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patronus said..

Stink bug my board is 90 degrees to wind, swell and chop so rolls side to side. I stabilise the board with wing on the water and when raised above my head use the power in the wind to help balance the side to side roll. In your method I think the board is dead downwind when wing is raised so does the board still roll side-to-side, and how do you turn to 90 degrees (on your knees or after getting to feet?).Video on the water would be great.

It should be pretty natural taxiing the board around. I can see how most people never try this, but it's not that bad.

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larsdegroot said..
Am i the only one that doesn't like the longer and narrow(er) boards? Yes they come up foil fast and yes the glide is awesome. But i'm a jumper and i simply miss a stable platform to land on. I've been riding a KT Ginxu V2 in 62L for a while and because its pretty narrow in the nose, after a jump or freestyle move, it just doesn t bounce back on foil. Its a great board for waves and free Flying, but thats it IMO.

I now have a new Gong Lemon FSP ' 25 on order. 4'10 and wide in the nose. It might come up foil a little less early then the KT, but i dont care.

You're right, freestylers tend to prefer your design. I don't think the majority of foilers are jumping though. Most are cruising and riding swell as far as I know.

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camerongraham said..
Bryan

I watched your video and explanation and it's pretty much the technique I've worked out since Ive dropped to sub 20" wide boards.
I went out today and reconfirmed by kneeling with my knees side by side and holding myself steady by pushing down on the wing on the water, pointing downwind a bit longer than usual, just relaxing and waiting for a good gust instead of trying to spin the board across the wind (where you usually get whacked by a chop, wave or swell).
When the gust is enough to put pressure in the wing, pull wing overhead, get a little bit of forward motion for stability, then spin the whole rig across the wind, get up to my feet and pump board/wing as needed.

The key tips you gave that helped me refine my technique were
- keep board pointed downwind, straddle the board, then draw knees up and under
- holding the wing flat on the water and staying relaxed pointing downwind
- yes, there is a moment of instability when you go to lift the wing, as suggested, make this movement as smooth and as quick as possible
- once the wing is in your hands, if there is pressure in the wing, you can turn across the wind and stand up and get going

Mistakes I made were
- not pointing directly downwind and getting pushed off the board by chop
- trying to turn across the wind too quickly, or without enough forward board speed, once again you are vulnerable to being pitched off sideways

Thank you so much for taking the time and effort to make this little tutorial

Thanks so much for the breakdown and I'm glad it helped. Your points about not turning across the wind too quickly are helpful too. I should have noted that 1. I do sit straddling my board for a while when waiting (easier than kneeling) and 2. I'm pretty dynamic and aggressive when dealing with side chop when on my feet. This get's us all from time to time. I try to pivot the board back downwind if I see whitewater coming while taxiing and then quickly pivot back across wind to get onto foil.

My takeoffs typically look like a J. Straight downwind and down swell gaining speed then hooking to the left or right across wind to capture my speed and take flight before I neutralize any gains. That's most important for me in lightwind takeoffs.