Hi all,

Looking for advice/opinion

I am still on the learning to jibe stage. Land most of them on my good side, but still struggling on my bad side and switching my feet back on toe side.

I'm currently on the old Armstrong SUP board 85L. Am 75kg. But I find the board quite tricky especially with the big concave on the board, and the nose likes to dig down in the water and dosnt like touch downs.

Am thinking of getting a new board with less concave and more balanced. Thinking it may help wth jibing and the rest.

Do you think a new board will help me on my journey, or shall I just keep sticking with it and keep practising with what i have?

Tldr: will a new board help me with jibes?

Thanks all ??

Can you share the board length/width info as well as what foil and mast length you're on? That helps with recommendations.
Sounds like you want a new board tho! Riding gear you like helps so it might be time based on that alone.

Select to expand quote

BWalnut said..
Can you share the board length/width info as well as what foil and mast length you're on? That helps with recommendations.
Sounds like you want a new board tho! Riding gear you like helps so it might be time based on that alone.

I'm on a armstrong 73cm mast

5'5" x 27" x 4 3/4" (88L) this is the board specs ??

Haha would be cool for sure. But unsure how well Armstrong is compatible with other brands?

Select to expand quote

GinoVino said..

BWalnut said..
Can you share the board length/width info as well as what foil and mast length you're on? That helps with recommendations.
Sounds like you want a new board tho! Riding gear you like helps so it might be time based on that alone.

I'm on a armstrong 73cm mast

5'5" x 27" x 4 3/4" (88L) this is the board specs ??

Haha would be cool for sure. But unsure how well Armstrong is compatible with other brands?

I don't ride armstrong but there's plenty of people riding armstrong foils with other boards and armstrong boards with other foils so don't be afraid of changing that up.

Great mast length! Your foil matters too for learning so it's a good idea to share what you are riding when asking for help.

That board is a pretty standard old school option. It's not very efficient at takeoff and it's not going to jibe great in comparison to the modern options. You'll get there on it but it also sounds like you are wanting something to progress on long term. That board is not your long run option so if you are ready to switch now then you have tons of options.

Learn about your BARG Factor so you can make an informed decision about your takeoff abilities:
www.wouzel.com/post/calculating-your-barg-factor

Try to go skinnier and longer for your next board. HEAPS of used options out there on the market usually so don't feel pressured into buying something new right now.

1) When I went to a narrower board, my flying foot switches became easier. The narrow width created better foot placement discipline. With wide boards, we often have feet spaced very wide (from centerline). So when you go for the foot switch, the board becomes very upset to your foot movement.

2) When going longer, the board has a dampened feel in pitch during the foot switch, giving you more confidence coming out of the jibe, then going for the switch.

The only reason anyone should stay on a wide board, is if you're still doing foot switches "on the surface".

Oh, I agree..concave decks suck. Flat is more stable and natural.

The new board designs from the last 1.5 years will help (longer and narrower) if you're OK pushing your comfort level a bit. Staying with a neutral or positive volume to help get started while also being more responsive on foil is a good idea. The other nice thing is that as you improve, this board can become your light wind board if you choose to get a slight negative board next.

You generally wont have problems switching board brands with the foil, just doublecheck with the shop and forum first :-) I've used Armstrong foils on Naish, Armstrong and now Omen boards without issue.

Depending on your conditions, a narrower board could be more tippy in choppy conditions when starting. Your balance will be challenged, but if you're fairly athletic you should get used to it within a few sessions and it could accelerate your learning curve.

Select to expand quote

BWalnut said..

GinoVino said..

BWalnut said..
Can you share the board length/width info as well as what foil and mast length you're on? That helps with recommendations.
Sounds like you want a new board tho! Riding gear you like helps so it might be time based on that alone.

I'm on a armstrong 73cm mast

5'5" x 27" x 4 3/4" (88L) this is the board specs ??

Haha would be cool for sure. But unsure how well Armstrong is compatible with other brands?

I don't ride armstrong but there's plenty of people riding armstrong foils with other boards and armstrong boards with other foils so don't be afraid of changing that up.

Great mast length! Your foil matters too for learning so it's a good idea to share what you are riding when asking for help.

That board is a pretty standard old school option. It's not very efficient at takeoff and it's not going to jibe great in comparison to the modern options. You'll get there on it but it also sounds like you are wanting something to progress on long term. That board is not your long run option so if you are ready to switch now then you have tons of options.

Learn about your BARG Factor so you can make an informed decision about your takeoff abilities:
www.wouzel.com/post/calculating-your-barg-factor

Try to go skinnier and longer for your next board. HEAPS of used options out there on the market usually so don't feel pressured into buying something new right now.

Thanks mate. The BARG factor looks interesting.

I'm currently on the Armstrong S1 front foil 1500 and cf300 rear with 60cm fuse.

Yeah will keep an eye out

Select to expand quote

kiwiupover said..
The new board designs from the last 1.5 years will help (longer and narrower) if you're OK pushing your comfort level a bit. Staying with a neutral or positive volume to help get started while also being more responsive on foil is a good idea. The other nice thing is that as you improve, this board can become your light wind board if you choose to get a slight negative board next.

You generally wont have problems switching board brands with the foil, just doublecheck with the shop and forum first :-) I've used Armstrong foils on Naish, Armstrong and now Omen boards without issue.

Depending on your conditions, a narrower board could be more tippy in choppy conditions when starting. Your balance will be challenged, but if you're fairly athletic you should get used to it within a few sessions and it could accelerate your learning curve.

That's great to hear thank you ??

How are the Omen boards? Have been eyes those out!

Have been checking out the Armstrong Midlegth as well

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DWF said..
1) When I went to a narrower board, my flying foot switches became easier. The narrow width created better foot placement discipline. With wide boards, we often have feet spaced very wide (from centerline). So when you go for the foot switch, the board becomes very upset to your foot movement.

2) When going longer, the board has a dampened feel in pitch during the foot switch, giving you more confidence coming out of the jibe, then going for the switch.

The only reason anyone should stay on a wide board, is if you're still doing foot switches "on the surface".

Oh, I agree..concave decks suck. Flat is more stable and natural.

That's great to hear thank you. Gives me confidence to try something narrower.

On water my foot switch is fine, just when on foil tricky. Especially when my heels get caught up on the concave, it can be annoying!

Select to expand quote

GinoVino said..

Tldr: will a new board help me with jibes?

Thanks all ??

Eventually yes, but for now jibes are more about technique, timing and wing handling, I'd say the foil plays into it more than the board during learning stage.

My big bit of advice is you will fall A LOT during the initial learning stages, so what you want is a board you can easily get started and back on foil as quickly as possible so you can get the reps in and not have to worry about struggling to get going again i.e on a sinker. Big and easy is good at this stage, downsize once you are good and consistent enough to be on foil more than not.

Keep practicing, it's a great feeling of accomplishment when you get it down.

Select to expand quote

drc13 said..

GinoVino said..

Tldr: will a new board help me with jibes?

Thanks all ??

Eventually yes, but for now jibes are more about technique, timing and wing handling, I'd say the foil plays into it more than the board during learning stage.

My big bit of advice is you will fall A LOT during the initial learning stages, so what you want is a board you can easily get started and back on foil as quickly as possible so you can get the reps in and not have to worry about struggling to get going again i.e on a sinker. Big and easy is good at this stage, downsize once you are good and consistent enough to be on foil more than not.

Thanks drc13. Yeah 100% need to get more time on water

IMO 73 mast is too short for winging. With a longer mast you can push harder and have more space during transitions. when you progress into riding swell will be significantly better as well.I think a shorter board also helps, but plenty of people liking mid lengths (not my experience). Your 85l sup board shouldn't be a problem.

If you're on the 4+ year old blue Armstrong SUP board then switching to something newer is a good idea. If it's one of the Wing sup FG boards you don't need to be in such a rush to upgrade the board, and can spend some more time practicing the basics.
For a next board, I like BWouzels general advice on his site of neutral or slightly bigger. - a mid length something 85-90l for you will make starting easier and the board will graduate with you as you advance and become your light wind board. I've had the Omen Flux 84l for 2 years and it's great as a one board quiver. At 95-100kg, I have been thinking of getting either a longer mid length 85l board or a shorter mid length 95l board for light wind and variable conditions. Something like the Sunova Carver (85 or 95l) or the Armstrong mid length 85l (I haven't used anything this long and narrow so it could be too advanced for you at this stage). But the Carvers had a big price drop in the USA recently and Bryan likes them :-)

Select to expand quote

GinoVino said..

BWalnut said..

GinoVino said..

BWalnut said..
Can you share the board length/width info as well as what foil and mast length you're on? That helps with recommendations.
Sounds like you want a new board tho! Riding gear you like helps so it might be time based on that alone.

I'm on a armstrong 73cm mast

5'5" x 27" x 4 3/4" (88L) this is the board specs ??

Haha would be cool for sure. But unsure how well Armstrong is compatible with other brands?

I don't ride armstrong but there's plenty of people riding armstrong foils with other boards and armstrong boards with other foils so don't be afraid of changing that up.

Great mast length! Your foil matters too for learning so it's a good idea to share what you are riding when asking for help.

That board is a pretty standard old school option. It's not very efficient at takeoff and it's not going to jibe great in comparison to the modern options. You'll get there on it but it also sounds like you are wanting something to progress on long term. That board is not your long run option so if you are ready to switch now then you have tons of options.

Learn about your BARG Factor so you can make an informed decision about your takeoff abilities:
www.wouzel.com/post/calculating-your-barg-factor

Try to go skinnier and longer for your next board. HEAPS of used options out there on the market usually so don't feel pressured into buying something new right now.

Thanks mate. The BARG factor looks interesting.

I'm currently on the Armstrong S1 front foil 1500 and cf300 rear with 60cm fuse.

Yeah will keep an eye out

Maybe the fuse is too short making it pitch unstable.

Select to expand quote

DWF said..
Oh, I agree..concave decks suck. Flat is more stable and natural.

What was the idea behind those?

Select to expand quote

Faff said..

DWF said..
Oh, I agree..concave decks suck. Flat is more stable and natural.

What was the idea behind those?

Those old concave decks really did suck. I don't know what the idea was either. If I had to guess, I would say maybe the thought was that your feet should be close to the centerline of the deck like a surfer so the concavity is reaching towards your feet for input.

Modern concavity isn't even visible to the eye. It's very subtle and feels flat but is more responsive.

Concave decks are all I want to ride, at least 1cm minimum.
I don't see how the deck shape can possibly be affecting the OP in the way they think. More likely it's just poor balance or a poorly tuned foil.

Select to expand quote

GinoVino said..
Hi all,

Looking for advice/opinion

I am still on the learning to jibe stage. Land most of them on my good side, but still struggling on my bad side and switching my feet back on toe side.

I'm currently on the old Armstrong SUP board 85L. Am 75kg. But I find the board quite tricky especially with the big concave on the board, and the nose likes to dig down in the water and dosnt like touch downs.

Am thinking of getting a new board with less concave and more balanced. Thinking it may help wth jibing and the rest.

Do you think a new board will help me on my journey, or shall I just keep sticking with it and keep practising with what i have?

Tldr: will a new board help me with jibes?

Thanks all ??

I think I'll just keep at it on my current board. Until I get the jibe down flat then switch over.

Currently on a 73cm armstrong mast. 60cm fuse. And s1 1550 front 300 stabiliser. So a decent rig.

Still bit of a beginner when it comes to the wing foil world, but if I can get past the concave think I should be good to go! ??

Select to expand quote

bolocom said..
IMO 73 mast is too short for winging. With a longer mast you can push harder and have more space during transitions. when you progress into riding swell will be significantly better as well.I think a shorter board also helps, but plenty of people liking mid lengths (not my experience). Your 85l sup board shouldn't be a problem.

Agree 73 is too short for winging, it just means you need to be more accurate with height control, you will notice this more in waves.

The answer to OP question is yes.

Select to expand quote

Faff said..

DWF said..
Oh, I agree..concave decks suck. Flat is more stable and natural.

What was the idea behind those?

Concave decks first appeared in the SUP surfing world with the C4 brand. They lowered the CG creating more board stability while padding. But toes often end up on raised rails. Not a good feel. SUP convex decks are also done. Those are very unstable. Flat it turns out, is the most natural, with less compromise. After all, sidewalks are flat, not concave!

It's easy to be seduced by the grip of concave decks on first ride, but eventually they fade away and people figure out flat wins for most people.

In my experience gear is often not the problem. Let some local hero ride on it, if they can jibe it you dont need anything else.

Boards are pretty much never the problem. If there is a gear related jibing problem I've seen its the foil not having enough glide. The older low-aspect thick profile very lifty foils are super friendly in terms of power delivery, but very hard to jibe. Something aspect ratio 7.5-8 and a little thinner around the 1200-1300sqcm range is a golden ticket for progression. I'm an F-One rider so that foil would be the Seven Seas from their lineup, but every foilbrand has probably something similar.

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GinoVino said..
I think I'll just keep at it on my current board. Until I get the jibe down flat then switch over.

I really think this is the way to go (which goes a bit against the general foilers philosophy of buying every "GAMECHANGER" rather than practicing)

Once you get your jibe sorted progression will quickly ramp up as you spend so much more time on foil and cover a lot more distance each session. You'll know when and why you need new gear as you'll become more aware of what is or isn't missing in your setup and how that specific part will add a different feel.

So again IMO if your current board is easy for you to balance on initially and get going on foil consistently I think that's more than enough to learn jibes, buy something to advanced too early and you'll just end up not attempting as many jibes as falling comes with more of a price to pay if the board is harder to balance/start.

To give you an idea I learnt the very basics on 110L, fairly quickly learnt the next steps on 80L and now pretty much only use 48 and 42L boards for winging, so the time to dust off the credit card will come but it's not the limiting factor atm.

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drc13 said..

GinoVino said..
I think I'll just keep at it on my current board. Until I get the jibe down flat then switch over.

So again IMO if your current board is easy for you to balance on initially and get going on foil consistently I think that's more than enough to learn jibes, buy something to advanced too early and you'll just end up not attempting as many jibes as falling comes with more of a price to pay if the board is harder to balance/start.

I would second this 100%. I went down on size too early (from 107lt to 85lt) and it was too much of a step down, I spent more time frustrated than progressing. That was last season.

This season, I went back up to 99lt (6'3' ML) and my progression has increased massively, because I no longer spend half the session trying to actually get on foil!!!

I have a light wind skinny board with a good concave in the deck..i really like it and feel more planted. My other board has a more subtle concave.both are no problem at all. Learn on flat water.then take that to the sea.

Select to expand quote

DWF said..
1) When I went to a narrower board, my flying foot switches became easier. The narrow width created better foot placement discipline. With wide boards, we often have feet spaced very wide (from centerline). So when you go for the foot switch, the board becomes very upset to your foot movement.

2) When going longer, the board has a dampened feel in pitch during the foot switch, giving you more confidence coming out of the jibe, then going for the switch.

The only reason anyone should stay on a wide board, is if you're still doing foot switches "on the surface".

Oh, I agree..concave decks suck. Flat is more stable and natural.

What do you mean with "doing foot switches on the surface"