Hi,
I finally feel I more or less manage the stinkbug start, after revisiting THE original and excellent stinkbug thread, reading all the way through a couple of times, in between the hard work (www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Wing-Foiling/Wind-Wings/StinkBug-Wingfoil-Start-maybe-the-only-start-you-need-)

My conditions are small and big wind waves, and some medium period swell now and then.
I'm 85kg, 190cm, and sort of forever intermediate skill level because of a fully damaged and stiff shoulder.
The boards I have been using for stinkbug practice is the Appleslice V3 in 90 and 70L. I have Flux V1 wings in different sizes.
Yes, I can stinkbug start the 90L in light to medium wind, but in stronger wind this board is too buoyant and long to sit stable.
The 70L feels perfect at this, sinking a little, helping towards a stable platform. Using that board mostly now, and a mid-size.

The other day I found that I had not been pressing the handles hard enough while crouching even deeper.
Much better stinkbug. Except, now I'm at the limit of my shoulder movement. Typically, after four or five stinkbug starts within a session, my shoulder and nearby parts hurts badly.

So I'm trying to get a little extra margin with my crouching stage.
Feels like very little extra is needed, but I don't think I can pull that out of even more stretching and training.

Down to a 60L board to sink even deeper?
Different wings? More dihedral?
Any technique adjustments that could help?

I really like the 70L and it generally feels right for me at this stage. But will go down a size, if the general opinion is that this helps more than changing wings.
I was about to upgrade one Flux size to V2, but I read that this generation is more towards race and maybe even flatter for all I know.
I really like the Fluxes, but will get other wings if I have to. Love to hear about your experiences crouching with different types.

Holding the front handle with the thumb simply did not work well, when crouched. Got painful twists now and then. But the upper edge of the Appleslice's outline is standing out nicely and is good for holding front (hard) handle and board in one grip. But meaning that space is tighter under the wing, with less effect when trying to grab a wind gust.

Suggestions? (besides removing helmet and shaving head?)
Thanks.

For what it's worth I mix between standard knee starting (when there's more consistent wind) and stinkbug when I'm stuck in a bit of a lull but can see wind approaching.

I'm on a 48L Armstrong Surf and I'm 70kg + wetsuit/wing and I find it pretty easy to wait under there indefinitely (most often I start to feel like shark bait)

I'm using Smik v4 wings and technique wise I just find my usual balance point with my knees and hold the handles in either both over or my usual mixed grip. with the strut resting across where the front of the board is submerged.

Lower volume would probably be easier again as you don't want corkiness.

I've been meaning to test out my 29L prone board with the same technique but we haven't had wind strong enough recently to risk it.

I really prefer this method if your board is narrow enough:

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kook123 said..
I really prefer this method if your board is narrow enough:

+1

Thanks,

I tried this tripod/one-hand technique briefly and found it hard with my conditions and skills, but now that I think of it, it was with the 90L that was really too wide for this. Will try again with the 70L when wind is back. If I'm able to, in most conditions and with a range of semi-sinking boards, it would absolutely great to have solved my bodily issues.

The Appleslice 70L is 5'2" x 22.0", and I believe Gwen in his video is using a KT SuperK 60L 5'5 x 18.6".
He is definitely lighter than me, he talks about the board as a non-sinker, for him. My guess is that is no less than -10 for him.
For me with wetsuit, my board is -20.

So while I'm waiting for wind, do you think the 70L is right for me when trying to learn tripod/one-hand?
I don't mind buying another board to succeed in my quest, even if it mostly is for temporary help.
The little I have been parawinging has been with a longer DW-board.
I will get a midlength for that that purpose plus regular winging, I have not yet decided the size.
For now I'm using a 1st gen AK Nomad at 90L 6'6" x 20.5" as a midlength for light wind winging, guess that would be too corky for chop and learning in general.
If the tripod technique really is the right one for me, I might as well just order something like the Appletree Skipper Midlength in 77L 6'0" x 20".

But I'm not sure I can avoid the stinkbug, even if I go learning the tripod thing at an easier location.
We have quite good swell around my homespot, along the archipelago channels and similar. But some transport winging is needed, which can be really bad with powerful chop from more than one direction, while at the same time the wind is not fully coming in.

So far, about the stinkbug only:
drc13 seconds my suspicion that a more sinking board will be better once adjusted to.
Not yet heard any experience about differently shaped wings, I guess that's not so important. (and we want to choose wings for other reasons)
No comments about not dealing with thumbs above hard handle, guess this is not so important if your grip is good otherwise.

Please comment, you are helping me a lot!!

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kook123 said..
I really prefer this method if your board is narrow enough:

I wing in fairly choppy conditions and this is how I start all my boards now, from 44 litre omen to 85 litre carver.
This video also looks quite interesting and plan to try it next time I am out on the water: www.instagram.com/reel/DN1JQ7V2K_f/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

I'm 100kg , 193cm, using 84l omen flux. Choppy and rough ocean conditions sometimes take me 2-3 goes to get up, especially if there's gusty winds.
I normally start with both hands on the handles and the windward hand holding both the wing and board. If the wind is stronger, I've sometimes also used the windward hand holding the wind up and the downwind hand on the board (opposite of Gwen). Omen's waterstart video shows this:
?si=ohp4p5cyco3Pa9LO

Another tweak that took me a while to try was pointing the board downwind and timing the swells with each step. BWalnut has a video somewhere of his start technique which is worth watching.
Another takeaway for me is to "feel" and adapt to the wind and water conditions and think about how to tweak your technique based on that day's conditions. For example, if conditions are clean I'll just start parallel to the wind. But is its rougher, I'll deliberately point the board downwind and try to time getting to my knees with the swell.

Also, I can't seem to balance properly unless my knees are at 45 degrees on the board (and my front foot dangles in the water the give me a little extra balance). I think being taller than most gives me different balance challenges :-)

Select to expand quote

MrPieMan said..

kook123 said..
I really prefer this method if your board is narrow enough:

I wing in fairly choppy conditions and this is how I start all my boards now, from 44 litre omen to 85 litre carver.

This video also looks quite interesting and plan to try it next time I am out on the water: www.instagram.com/reel/DN1JQ7V2K_f/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

Thanks, interesting to hear that the tripod exercise works for a wide range of board volumes.

The method in the Instagram video seems to have at least parts in common with the sniper method mentioned in the original stinkbug thread, where it was commented that it had an unstable phase. Maybe great if waves are not too unruly, probably also works fine with wider boards.
Need to choose wisely how I invest time and effort in further learning, will try out one or max two methods :)

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kiwiupover said..
I'm 100kg , 193cm, using 84l omen flux. Choppy and rough ocean conditions sometimes take me 2-3 goes to get up, especially if there's gusty winds.
I normally start with both hands on the handles and the windward hand holding both the wing and board. If the wind is stronger, I've sometimes also used the windward hand holding the wind up and the downwind hand on the board (opposite of Gwen). Omen's waterstart video shows this:

?si=ohp4p5cyco3Pa9LO

Another tweak that took me a while to try was pointing the board downwind and timing the swells with each step. BWalnut has a video somewhere of his start technique which is worth watching.
Another takeaway for me is to "feel" and adapt to the wind and water conditions and think about how to tweak your technique based on that day's conditions. For example, if conditions are clean I'll just start parallel to the wind. But is its rougher, I'll deliberately point the board downwind and try to time getting to my knees with the swell.

Also, I can't seem to balance properly unless my knees are at 45 degrees on the board (and my front foot dangles in the water the give me a little extra balance). I think being taller than most gives me different balance challenges :-)

Thanks, this is helping quite a bit.

I'll probably leave behind the classic stinkbug method with wing frame support. (Good thing that I'm now assured I can choose wings freely, no special shape is needed to fit all of me into a super cramped space)
Then I'll use boards that are no more than 22", volume probably no more than -5 (rather -10 and down) to have it sink at least a little and sit more stable.
From there it's spending time with the tripod method version shown by Gwen, and the elbow version by Omen, in parallel for while.
Guess different riders choose different methods based om abilities (agility etc) and local conditions.
I have a feeling I'll end up with the elbow version, after lots of practice, this one looks more friendly for me with more symmetry and less potentially unstable transitions.

@kiwiupover, regarding "..rougher, I'll deliberately point the board downwind".
Which method/variation? I've not had success in pointing more than a few degrees downwind with classic stinkbug, wing end catches far too easy.
Guess the newer method variations here holding the wing up lets you start much more downwind.

Select to expand quote

MrPieMan said..

kook123 said..
I really prefer this method if your board is narrow enough:

I wing in fairly choppy conditions and this is how I start all my boards now, from 44 litre omen to 85 litre carver.
This video also looks quite interesting and plan to try it next time I am out on the water: www.instagram.com/reel/DN1JQ7V2K_f/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

Prob similar to a para wing optional start really.

I've used this technique if sinker on knees stinkbug as explained above . then again hardly wing anymore lol

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olav said..

kiwiupover said..
I'm 100kg , 193cm, using 84l omen flux. Choppy and rough ocean conditions sometimes take me 2-3 goes to get up, especially if there's gusty winds.
I normally start with both hands on the handles and the windward hand holding both the wing and board. If the wind is stronger, I've sometimes also used the windward hand holding the wind up and the downwind hand on the board (opposite of Gwen). Omen's waterstart video shows this:

?si=ohp4p5cyco3Pa9LO

Another tweak that took me a while to try was pointing the board downwind and timing the swells with each step. BWalnut has a video somewhere of his start technique which is worth watching.
Another takeaway for me is to "feel" and adapt to the wind and water conditions and think about how to tweak your technique based on that day's conditions. For example, if conditions are clean I'll just start parallel to the wind. But is its rougher, I'll deliberately point the board downwind and try to time getting to my knees with the swell.

Also, I can't seem to balance properly unless my knees are at 45 degrees on the board (and my front foot dangles in the water the give me a little extra balance). I think being taller than most gives me different balance challenges :-)

Thanks, this is helping quite a bit.

I'll probably leave behind the classic stinkbug method with wing frame support. (Good thing that I'm now assured I can choose wings freely, no special shape is needed to fit all of me into a super cramped space)
Then I'll use boards that are no more than 22", volume probably no more than -5 (rather -10 and down) to have it sink at least a little and sit more stable.
From there it's spending time with the tripod method version shown by Gwen, and the elbow version by Omen, in parallel for while.
Guess different riders choose different methods based om abilities (agility etc) and local conditions.
I have a feeling I'll end up with the elbow version, after lots of practice, this one looks more friendly for me with more symmetry and less potentially unstable transitions.

@kiwiupover, regarding "..rougher, I'll deliberately point the board downwind".
Which method/variation? I've not had success in pointing more than a few degrees downwind with classic stinkbug, wing end catches far too easy.
Guess the newer method variations here holding the wing up lets you start much more downwind.

Rougher conditions when I point somewhat downwind or with the swell (maybe not all the way, but at least 45+ degrees), I just do the "normal" version and hold the board and handle at the same time. For me, these conditions have a lot going on and I feel most comfortable using the front hand to grip both board and wing.
I think BWalnut's video, he points fully downwind and actually uses the luff handle to lift the wing. He's also more talented and shorter than me, and the gorge conditions are cleaner than my "rough" ocean conditions. Other friends can do this start pretty easily, but I can't :-)

here's another take on it that was very helpful to look at:
?si=L3orA9Xiu5FO7hhR

Bwalnut's vid

www.instagram.com/reel/DEanJd9yzdP/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link&igsh=MzRlODBiNWFlZA%3D%3D

Select to expand quote

kiwiupover said..
Rougher conditions when I point somewhat downwind or with the swell (maybe not all the way, but at least 45+ degrees), I just do the "normal" version and hold the board and handle at the same time. For me, these conditions have a lot going on and I feel most comfortable using the front hand to grip both board and wing.
I think BWalnut's video, he points fully downwind and actually uses the luff handle to lift the wing.

Thanks again,
Will also try the method shown by BWalnut, getting wind the next days.
Not for all days and locations, guess very short period waves are useless for this.

Select to expand quote

kiwiupover said..
here's another take on it that was very helpful to look at:

?si=L3orA9Xiu5FO7hhR

Yes, definitely helps to see different riders share the same method.
In this 3+ year old video a very short board is used. We're told to have an extra step after the straddle, "moving your seat back a little".
Guess that's not needed with today's narrower and a bit longer boards, seems you can sit ready in just the right forward position. Or?

Finally, I'd be happy to have comments on parameters for a new midlength board, which I hope also could aid my learning of these start methods, especially in lighter wind.
- Will a -10 volume or so be small enough to sink and stabilize the board while doing the elbow or tripod start? (-20 too much and no good for lightwind?)
- Will a pin/round tail, compared to a square, generally make the board less stable while (semi)sinking and starting? Or is the difference negligible?

I'm considering the round tail Appletree Skipper Midlength 77L 6'0 x 20", vs the square tail KT Super K2 80L 5'10 x 20", or maybe both a number smaller.
I straddle in a very stable position a bit sunken on my Appleslice V3 70L 5'2 x 22".
Not so on the AK Nomad 90L 6'6" x 20.5". Width is fine, but at volume +3 or so and being long, the board (as expected really) is hard to sink and stabilize. Maybe the round tail also makes it worse.

Maybe it's just to much to ask from one board, to be sufficiently balanced for me when learning these useful start methods, while being great for light wind winging and hopefully soon progressing with parawing. Might have to choose..
Sorry to bother you all with my worries - almost there. Thanks again.

Select to expand quote

olav said..

kiwiupover said..
Rougher conditions when I point somewhat downwind or with the swell (maybe not all the way, but at least 45+ degrees), I just do the "normal" version and hold the board and handle at the same time. For me, these conditions have a lot going on and I feel most comfortable using the front hand to grip both board and wing.
I think BWalnut's video, he points fully downwind and actually uses the luff handle to lift the wing.

Thanks again,
Will also try the method shown by BWalnut, getting wind the next days.
Not for all days and locations, guess very short period waves are useless for this.

kiwiupover said..
here's another take on it that was very helpful to look at:

?si=L3orA9Xiu5FO7hhR

Yes, definitely helps to see different riders share the same method.
In this 3+ year old video a very short board is used. We're told to have an extra step after the straddle, "moving your seat back a little".
Guess that's not needed with today's narrower and a bit longer boards, seems you can sit ready in just the right forward position. Or?

Finally, I'd be happy to have comments on parameters for a new midlength board, which I hope also could aid my learning of these start methods, especially in lighter wind.
- Will a -10 volume or so be small enough to sink and stabilize the board while doing the elbow or tripod start? (-20 too much and no good for lightwind?)
- Will a pin/round tail, compared to a square, generally make the board less stable while (semi)sinking and starting? Or is the difference negligible?

I'm considering the round tail Appletree Skipper Midlength 77L 6'0 x 20", vs the square tail KT Super K2 80L 5'10 x 20", or maybe both a number smaller.
I straddle in a very stable position a bit sunken on my Appleslice V3 70L 5'2 x 22".
Not so on the AK Nomad 90L 6'6" x 20.5". Width is fine, but at volume +3 or so and being long, the board (as expected really) is hard to sink and stabilize. Maybe the round tail also makes it worse.

Maybe it's just to much to ask from one board, to be sufficiently balanced for me when learning these useful start methods, while being great for light wind winging and hopefully soon progressing with parawing. Might have to choose..
Sorry to bother you all with my worries - almost there. Thanks again.

I only have a 1-board quiver: 84l Omen Flux at approx. 100kg. It's my first sinker board.
I think your current 2 boards are good for now. If I had a 2 board quiver, I would have a neutral to +10l mid-length for light to medium winds, and a slightly wider -20% body-weight/75-80l board for moderate to stronger winds (appleslice v3!?!?).

for "average" wingers like me (especially on the taller and heavier side), I think the narrower boards are always going to be more challenging in rough conditions. Everything will have compromises, but talented riders make it look too easy :-)

Select to expand quote

kiwiupover said..
I only have a 1-board quiver: 84l Omen Flux at approx. 100kg. It's my first sinker board.
I think your current 2 boards are good for now. If I had a 2 board quiver, I would have a neutral to +10l mid-length for light to medium winds, and a slightly wider -20% body-weight/75-80l board for moderate to stronger winds (appleslice v3!?!?).

for "average" wingers like me (especially on the taller and heavier side), I think the narrower boards are always going to be more challenging in rough conditions. Everything will have compromises, but talented riders make it look too easy :-)

Thanks for reminding me. I'll probably have the first midlength with volume near bodyweight. Or I will take forever to progress my parawinging from the big DW board. There will be winging in very light wind as well.
Sold the Slice 90L yesterday as the 70L is all I need now for medium wind and up. Such a great board, 22" width is friendly enough in chop, balance feels good when semi-sunken. Rises quickly to the surface even in relatively light wind, and I'm off.

Had a short hour of 8m/s wind today, dedicated it to parawinging. Used the Nomad 90L 6'6" 20.5", and this time I made the tripod start from straddling. Think my knees are better now, plus, discussing and studying the right videos does help.
It's worth noting that the tripod start in Gwen's video have an additional step for nostring-wings, that is moving the handles forward to the front hand. Balance is harder with parawing, but at least you have the bar where you want it all the time.

Think I'll order the Skipper Midlength in 6'4" 20.5" 5.0" 87L. Which measures are oddly close to the Nomad I'll probably sell.
The Nomad is very light, reasonably stiff, and had very great glide - by far better than 90L Appleslice.
It's very round rails were efficient taking off through chop - but here lies the trouble:
I measured the deck pad to be 45cm / 17.5" at the widest, and curvature started immediately from there. My big feet never got very disciplined for this width. (Straddling with this shape was very nice though, but grabbing the rail was not convenient)
The Skipper Mid has flat deck and pad almost entirely in the width, even a low but wide tail kick they say is for toes and position reference when starting. A reviewer pointed out that the Super K2 does not have pad all the way out, but from the looks it is at least far better than the Nomad.
Looks like the Skipper Mid has the same excellent grabbable rails as the Slice, and will probably glide even better than the Nomad.

Wish I was a faster learner, soon becoming immune to dimensions and such.
Wind next days, will practice the post-stinkbug starts and hopefully work around my stiff shoulder.
Thanks for lots of helpful comments!