Yeah that looks amazing, I would love to try PPC!

PCP I have had many times but l am yet to try the PPC

Just to add something useful hopefully... son and I have been sharing a 4m PPC wing. It's got a bullet proof construction and is super direct. Really useful for water starts and instant power to get up and onto the next swell line. It's a pretty flat design kind of in the Armstrong type camp. Really good low end. Has the center strut inflation seperate from the leading edge so you can put 8psi into this... so she's stiff as. My son sinks starts it on a 4 foot prone with ease in pretty light marginal stuff


but surprisingly it doesn't suffer from the blow back (and I know what that's like as I also have a 5m duotone unit) you can get when you are given the advantage of direct low end. Had it out once in a legitimate 25 to 30 albeit downwind and it worked really well.


Initially I felt it twist a bit in the hand when flagging it out but after adjusting and getting used to it don't even consider it anymore. Last downwind which was around 13km, I reckon my son pump proned 80 Percent of it fully flagged out.

good wing. If I had the coin I'd have a quiver, prefer it to the unit.

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Youngbreezy said..
Yeah that looks amazing, I would love to try PPC!

PCP I have had many times but l am yet to try the PPC

Haha nice. After that it's DVDA all the way!

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eppo said..

but surprisingly it doesn't suffer from the blow back (and I know what that's like as I also have a 5m duotone unit) you can get when you are given the advantage of direct low end. Had it out once in a legitimate 25 to 30 albeit downwind and it worked really well.

Hey Eppo, (or anyone else for that matter) if you don't mind can you please elaborate on what you mean by the term "blow back", when it occurs, and your understanding of what causes it. I have heard the term used a few times now, but unfortunately it remains a mystery to me. Thanks.

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Pat WA 1965 said..

eppo said..

but surprisingly it doesn't suffer from the blow back (and I know what that's like as I also have a 5m duotone unit) you can get when you are given the advantage of direct low end. Had it out once in a legitimate 25 to 30 albeit downwind and it worked really well.

Hey Eppo, (or anyone else for that matter) if you don't mind can you please elaborate on what you mean by the term "blow back", when it occurs, and your understanding of what causes it. I have heard the term used a few times now, but unfortunately it remains a mystery to me. Thanks.

Hi Pat,

I assume he's talking about "backwinding". It is the wing's habit of changing from pulling away from you to pushing against you due to a negative AoA. Tends to happen in swirly turbulent air or when pinching hard upwind if you sheet out a bit too much and the wing gets too close to or goes through the wind.

Thanks for that

... it feels like the air rushing over the top of the leading edge creates downward pressure, when holding the wing at certain angles when overpowered!

The unit for example has a decent low end. But the top end of its range you quickly get what I call blow back because that is what it feels like to me. Is that because of the more dihedral design and it's massive leading edge on the unit. I'm no engineer. Makes it a real struggle to go upwind - but doesn't matter all that much downwind.


but the ppc (and I've ridden both extensively) not only goes earlier because it's more even more direct but doesn't have same blow back at it's top end. Hence range much greater.


is that because of its flatter shape, and much smaller leading edge (as you can put 8-9 psi into the separated leading edge and strut which creates are far more rigid shape). Flatter analogous to a higher aspect kite allowing it to drive further up into the window without pulling you downwind ...

as I said I'm no engineer.
but in my opinion it's a better wing than the unit and the unit is a great wing. Plus it's construction is far more robust - looks like it may last more than a season.

Thanks Eppo

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eppo said..
... it feels like the air rushing over the top of the leading edge creates downward pressure, when holding the wing at certain angles when overpowered!

The unit for example has a decent low end. But the top end of its range you quickly get what I call blow back because that is what it feels like to me. Is that because of the more dihedral design and it's massive leading edge on the unit. I'm no engineer. Makes it a real struggle to go upwind - but doesn't matter all that much downwind.


but the ppc (and I've ridden both extensively) not only goes earlier because it's more even more direct but doesn't have same blow back at it's top end. Hence range much greater.


is that because of its flatter shape, and much smaller leading edge (as you can put 8-9 psi into the separated leading edge and strut which creates are far more rigid shape). Flatter analogous to a higher aspect kite allowing it to drive further up into the window without pulling you downwind ...

as I said I'm no engineer.
but in my opinion it's a better wing than the unit and the unit is a great wing. Plus it's construction is far more robust - looks like it may last more than a season.

Great review Eppo, and agree a lot after using it against a lot of other models, just got some more stock including the long awaited 2.8mt

When you can travel again bring them down. Been some carnage down here lately, might need a backup that is built super strong like these.

Any chance of a picture of the handles?

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hilly said..
When you can travel again bring them down. Been some carnage down here lately, might need a backup that is built super strong like these.

Don't I know it - had some crackers in for repair from you boys recently. Wings are taking a lasting

Ry
The Sail Doctor

Don't have a pic but what do you want to know about them ?

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Grantmac said..
Any chance of a picture of the handles?

Got this a while back from PPC directly...

You're welcome...

Got the 5.8 recently after using Duotone Echos. PPC is awesome, it handles so much better in stronger wind.

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Grantmac said..
Any chance of a picture of the handles?

Just got the new 2.8mt in as well, these pics might help with the handle question ?

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Clamsmasha said..

Pat WA 1965 said..

eppo said..

but surprisingly it doesn't suffer from the blow back (and I know what that's like as I also have a 5m duotone unit) you can get when you are given the advantage of direct low end. Had it out once in a legitimate 25 to 30 albeit downwind and it worked really well.

Hey Eppo, (or anyone else for that matter) if you don't mind can you please elaborate on what you mean by the term "blow back", when it occurs, and your understanding of what causes it. I have heard the term used a few times now, but unfortunately it remains a mystery to me. Thanks.

Hi Pat,

I assume he's talking about "backwinding". It is the wing's habit of changing from pulling away from you to pushing against you due to a negative AoA. Tends to happen in swirly turbulent air or when pinching hard upwind if you sheet out a bit too much and the wing gets too close to or goes through the wind.

Just like Clamsmasha said.
That's probably why my Cabrinha x2 wing flys nicely upside down when just holding its leash.
So when I go upwind as best as I can on my backhand the wing wants to dive across my face which was a concern of the hand leash going across my neck.
Seemed to go better upwind when the wind wasn't too strong.

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eppo said..
... it feels like the air rushing over the top of the leading edge creates downward pressure, when holding the wing at certain angles when overpowered!

The unit for example has a decent low end. But the top end of its range you quickly get what I call blow back because that is what it feels like to me. Is that because of the more dihedral design and it's massive leading edge on the unit. I'm no engineer. Makes it a real struggle to go upwind - but doesn't matter all that much downwind.


but the ppc (and I've ridden both extensively) not only goes earlier because it's more even more direct but doesn't have same blow back at it's top end. Hence range much greater.


is that because of its flatter shape, and much smaller leading edge (as you can put 8-9 psi into the separated leading edge and strut which creates are far more rigid shape). Flatter analogous to a higher aspect kite allowing it to drive further up into the window without pulling you downwind ...

as I said I'm no engineer.
but in my opinion it's a better wing than the unit and the unit is a great wing. Plus it's construction is far more robust - looks like it may last more than a season.

What you're describing about the unit is called "back wind" and it's horrible! Despite the good quality materials the unit isn't a good wing.

PPC looks good but I would love to hear someone who had the chance to compare PPC against Smick. The Smick being my favourite wing so far.
Are the PPC handles bendy?

Different wings. PPC solid, powerful, really rigid and tight. Smik light and forgiving. Both very good, Smik better in waves PPC better for freestyle and jumps. Smik handles smaller and more rigid.

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hilly said..
Different wings. PPC solid, powerful, really rigid and tight. Smik light and forgiving. Both very good, Smik better in waves PPC better for freestyle and jumps. Smik handles smaller and more rigid.

Thanks !

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Alysum said..

eppo said..
... it feels like the air rushing over the top of the leading edge creates downward pressure, when holding the wing at certain angles when overpowered!

The unit for example has a decent low end. But the top end of its range you quickly get what I call blow back because that is what it feels like to me. Is that because of the more dihedral design and it's massive leading edge on the unit. I'm no engineer. Makes it a real struggle to go upwind - but doesn't matter all that much downwind.


but the ppc (and I've ridden both extensively) not only goes earlier because it's more even more direct but doesn't have same blow back at it's top end. Hence range much greater.


is that because of its flatter shape, and much smaller leading edge (as you can put 8-9 psi into the separated leading edge and strut which creates are far more rigid shape). Flatter analogous to a higher aspect kite allowing it to drive further up into the window without pulling you downwind ...

as I said I'm no engineer.
but in my opinion it's a better wing than the unit and the unit is a great wing. Plus it's construction is far more robust - looks like it may last more than a season.

What you're describing about the unit is called "back wind" and it's horrible! Despite the good quality materials the unit isn't a good wing.

PPC looks good but I would love to hear someone who had the chance to compare PPC against Smick. The Smick being my favourite wing so far.
Are the PPC handles bendy?

I wouldn't call the unit a bad wing. Not sure why you are always so black and white about things. Like your silly comment on how many Armstrong foils will be sold this year due to fuse wing connection wearing. Ive had many great sessions on the unit and so have others I ride with.

And it floats really nice flagged out. You also learn to manage the blow back as I call it - but even that is hardly an issue when doing long downwinders and or within its useable wind range. It's not horrible by any stretch if you've used one for any length of time.


PPC does handle itself better in its upper wind for sure. It's build will also well outlast either the unit or smick. But flagging out takes some adjustment, not much but some.


pros and cons. But to say the unit is a horrible wing ... well that's just straight out naive.


Smick wing is a really good wing for sure. I'd love a sneaky 3.5m for nuking downwinders.

The Unit likes to flip upside down when you ride a wave which is odd.

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eppo said..

Alysum said..

eppo said..
... it feels like the air rushing over the top of the leading edge creates downward pressure, when holding the wing at certain angles when overpowered!

The unit for example has a decent low end. But the top end of its range you quickly get what I call blow back because that is what it feels like to me. Is that because of the more dihedral design and it's massive leading edge on the unit. I'm no engineer. Makes it a real struggle to go upwind - but doesn't matter all that much downwind.


but the ppc (and I've ridden both extensively) not only goes earlier because it's more even more direct but doesn't have same blow back at it's top end. Hence range much greater.


is that because of its flatter shape, and much smaller leading edge (as you can put 8-9 psi into the separated leading edge and strut which creates are far more rigid shape). Flatter analogous to a higher aspect kite allowing it to drive further up into the window without pulling you downwind ...

as I said I'm no engineer.
but in my opinion it's a better wing than the unit and the unit is a great wing. Plus it's construction is far more robust - looks like it may last more than a season.

What you're describing about the unit is called "back wind" and it's horrible! Despite the good quality materials the unit isn't a good wing.

PPC looks good but I would love to hear someone who had the chance to compare PPC against Smick. The Smick being my favourite wing so far.
Are the PPC handles bendy?

I wouldn't call the unit a bad wing. Not sure why you are always so black and white about things. Like your silly comment on how many Armstrong foils will be sold this year due to fuse wing connection wearing. Ive had many great sessions on the unit and so have others I ride with.

And it floats really nice flagged out. You also learn to manage the blow back as I call it - but even that is hardly an issue when doing long downwinders and or within its useable wind range. It's not horrible by any stretch if you've used one for any length of time.


PPC does handle itself better in its upper wind for sure. It's build will also well outlast either the unit or smick. But flagging out takes some adjustment, not much but some.


pros and cons. But to say the unit is a horrible wing ... well that's just straight out naive.


Smick wing is a really good wing for sure. I'd love a sneaky 3.5m for nuking downwinders.

Mate it's totally unnecessary for you to have a go at me.... Isn't the idea of a forum for people to share their personal experiences with gear.

The unit "works" for average Joe but has many aspects I dislike and it is in my books a terrible wing. YMMV. Some of my friends agree. Hilly just mentioned the movements when de powered too.

Back to the PPC topic

Oh sorry I didn't realise you weren't an average joe. My bad.
Yes back to PPC

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Alysum said..

eppo said..
... it feels like the air rushing over the top of the leading edge creates downward pressure, when holding the wing at certain angles when overpowered!

The unit for example has a decent low end. But the top end of its range you quickly get what I call blow back because that is what it feels like to me. Is that because of the more dihedral design and it's massive leading edge on the unit. I'm no engineer. Makes it a real struggle to go upwind - but doesn't matter all that much downwind.


but the ppc (and I've ridden both extensively) not only goes earlier because it's more even more direct but doesn't have same blow back at it's top end. Hence range much greater.


is that because of its flatter shape, and much smaller leading edge (as you can put 8-9 psi into the separated leading edge and strut which creates are far more rigid shape). Flatter analogous to a higher aspect kite allowing it to drive further up into the window without pulling you downwind ...

as I said I'm no engineer.
but in my opinion it's a better wing than the unit and the unit is a great wing. Plus it's construction is far more robust - looks like it may last more than a season.

What you're describing about the unit is called "back wind" and it's horrible! Despite the good quality materials the unit isn't a good wing.

PPC looks good but I would love to hear someone who had the chance to compare PPC against Smick. The Smick being my favourite wing so far.
Are the PPC handles bendy?

I have both the smik and the PPC and sell both, they are both awesome wings, as Hilly said the smik is very light and flags well, it is also a lot lighter in the construction.

I don't agree that the PPC is a freestyle/jumping wing only but one thing that i have noticed using both wings is that the power delivery on the PPC is so much more direct and getting back upwind too get more waves is ridiculously better, it also doesn't want to buckle in stronger winds.

The PPC is a much heavier built product but when flagged it is very light feeling.

Did a demo yesterday with a good rider in Perth that rides smik and F-one, he wanted too replace the smik 5mt as he wanted too get back upwind on some sessions better and as i have found the Smik just doesn't compare too the PPC, my concerns were that it might not be what he was after when he told me his issues, he bought 2 !!

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Wingman WA said..I don't agree that the PPC is a freestyle/jumping wing only

Not what I said. It would better than the Smik at freestyle I believe. Yes, the upwind performance is amazing, and it is good in the waves just not as light and floaty as the Smik.

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Like your silly comment on how many Armstrong foils will be sold this year due to fuse wing connection wearing.

Sorry lads, a bit outside of topic but is that a thing? I am tossing between a Phantom 1280 and the Armstrong HS1250 and wondering which one has the best type of connection. With Armstrong, it reminds me of Spotz a few years back and I can recall all the riders complaining about the wear with this type of connection. I believe F-one also had something similar and ran into wearing issues which makes me wonder whether we'll start seeing similar symptoms with Armstrong.

Armstrong connection is way oversized compared to what Spotz and F-one had before though...

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Livit said..

Like your silly comment on how many Armstrong foils will be sold this year due to fuse wing connection wearing.

Sorry lads, a bit outside of topic but is that a thing? I am tossing between a Phantom 1280 and the Armstrong HS1250 and wondering which one has the best type of connection. With Armstrong, it reminds me of Spotz a few years back and I can recall all the riders complaining about the wear with this type of connection. I believe F-one also had something similar and ran into wearing issues which makes me wonder whether we'll start seeing similar symptoms with Armstrong.

Armstrong connection is way oversized compared to what Spotz and F-one had before though...

Haven't seen any issues and we have been selling/using them for a couple of years now.

The PPC looks similar to Armstrong A-Wing. Any head to head comparisons?

What I've heard from guys who I've ridden with on the Armstrong and tried the PPC it is even tighter in the canopy. Probably even better for freestyle and early direct starting. But that's all they have said. So just like kites there are pros and cons with design it seems. There are no horrible wings just different design criteria for different purposes.