Looks interesting: www.horue.fr/new-foil-libel/libelwing-r7e9r

Won't this just create more drag? Unless you have what. 2 x 400cm foils ?

Yep, I think there is a reason why they stopped making biplanes back around WW1

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King Crash said..
Won't this just create more drag? Unless you have what. 2 x 400cm foils ?

Smallest top wing 515, smallest bottom 310 cm sw, aspect ratio of 7.2 ish. Looks well made. Aluminium base to carbon mast would need ref gel.
Changing brands is expensive, if available to test and they are twice as good as what your riding they should sell well. If only a small improvement, can't see them doing well.

Dunno what it will be like but it's looks cool
Im sure it will still be fun to use at least you get two goes at breaching

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goggo said..

King Crash said..
Won't this just create more drag? Unless you have what. 2 x 400cm foils ?

Smallest top wing 515, smallest bottom 310 cm sw, aspect ratio of 7.2 ish. Looks well made. Aluminium base to carbon mast would need ref gel.
Changing brands is expensive, if available to test and they are twice as good as what your riding they should sell well. If only a small improvement, can't see them doing well.

Not too sure on being better - but until I see any riders compete successfully in the wing world tour with it. Going to give it a miss, cool concept though!

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GWatto said..
Yep, I think there is a reason why they stopped making biplanes back around WW1

No, biplanes are still made, and are actually better for certain things that require high maneuverability (aerobatics) and low flying speeds (agricultural aircraft).

It could be interesting for foils, despite the higher drag, especially for the reduced wing span that will allow for better stiffness, less breaching in turns, planing at lower speeds. I guess it could have advantages in slow waves / slow speeds / beachstarts. It may become the "tomo" of foils: not something used in the world tour, but fun nonetheless in some conditions.

Yeh . nah.

They have their biplane adapter for windfoil for a couple of years now. So far I haven't heard any comments on its performance.

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NicoDC said..
They have their biplane adapter for windfoil for a couple of years now. So far I haven't heard any comments on its performance.

More drag than it was worth generally which is why they subsequently came out with the XXLW HA wing which had as much lift but less drag. OTOH, the XXLW didn't turn very well in my limited experience.

What would have been better at the time, imho, is to have built their new big LA wing instead of waiting for a couple of years to bring it out. They lost a lot of market and mindshare not having done that earlier.

Probably not very efficient, so nothing for high end performance, I would agree to this.
But as colas says, biplanes do have their advantages. Nothing beats a scenic mountain flight in an Antonov AN-2 because no other plane its size is capable of flying so slowly close to the peaks.
I have started pumpfoiling and I wonder if the double decker would be a good thing as the frontwing apparently can't get big enough and high aspect glides well while big wing span makes dockstarting clumsy and even impossible in some places.

Wings waste energy at the tips and a biplane has 4 tips instead of 2.
There is also interference between the upper and lower wings.

A biplane foil is not going to be fast or glidey, but the super short span maneuvrability and the breaching behaviour might find an application.

I would like to see the Prandtl boxwing (a biplane with joined wingtips) made available commercially.This design gets rid of the wingtip vortices.

Brucecreations made very promising protos and last i heard he was working with one of the top IKA kiterace foil designers but i do not know if it there is anything in the works.



More vids in the channel.

Hi Everyone and thanks for this topic.

I'm Phil, Horue owner and Designer.

If you have any question with this new LIBEL, please feel free to ask!

Would be happy to explain the benefit (and also the negative point) of this new biplane configuration

Good stuff...
I'd explore increasing distance between front wings to control breaching.

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LeeD said..
Good stuff...
I'd explore increasing distance between front wings to control breaching.

Gap is drag, and is a function of the chord and decalage of the wing.

Hi Phil,
I take the opportunity as your are here and willing to share. So what are the benefits and downsides of this design?
Also could you confirm the weight of this setup? I have seen your kitefoil design and it is like unreal how light is is !
I was a happy owner of you Caneri pro board that was also VERY light. I guess the complete kitefoil setup board + foil must be like 2,5 or 3kg max !
But for winging, is the mast different? A light mast as the one used for kiting can't be stiff at this weight?!?!?
So many questions about your stuff as we don't find a lot of user feedback and it is uncomon
Merci d'avance
Frank

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Horue said..

Would be happy to explain the benefit (and also the negative point) of this new biplane configuration

That would be great Phil.
Are there any vids of the Libel in action?.
I read on your website that both wings are solid G10.How much does a 75cm mast full Libel setup weigh?.
Have you played with the boxwing concept?.

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Frankieboy said..
Hi Phil,
I take the opportunity as your are here and willing to share.

Hi Franckie!

The biggest advantage is the overall maniability. If you remember our H14, LIBEL is much easier to start with, but maniability is quite similar, with better stability.
There is a big advantage with the rigidity and modularity of the system. Biplane configuration allows us to reduce some sections, improving weight and drag.
A few intermediate level + riders tested today, and found the glide to be very good, better than their current foil.
There is no perverse effect concerning the Vmax.

LIBEL is not designed with the same goal in mind compared with your H14.
H14 has been designed to be light and radical. Riding it strapless with the Caneri Pro Model gave you a combo foil + board at 2.7kg ready to ride.
www.horue.fr/kitefoil-pack-en/combocaneriproh14
The main problem with it is complexity with building construction, and stiffness for other uses, like wingfoil.Actually, wingfoil, for the use we make with Horue Riders, requires stiffer foil that windfoil. It goes against what we thought first.

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mcrt said..

That would be great Phil.

We don't have the exact final weight for the LIBEL combo, as production is a bit different than the prototype.

You can see a LIBEL in action on our instagram page : www.https://www.instagram.com/horue
More to come very very soon.
Boxwing is quite difficult to produce easily. Maybe it will be an evolution of the LIBEL for the future?

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Horue said..

Boxwing is quite difficult to produce easily. Maybe it will be an evolution of the LIBEL for the future?

Thanks for answering these questions regarding the new Libel foil, Phil. Please look into the box wing concept next! Maybe a new top foil for the Libel with backwards tilting winglets going all the way down to the bottom foil could be an interesting step in that direction?

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EirikB said..

Thanks for answering these questions regarding the new Libel foil, Phil. Please look into the box wing concept next! Maybe a new top foil for the Libel with backwards tilting winglets going all the way down to the bottom foil could be an interesting step in that direction?

Actually, Induced drag decreases with square of speed. But vertical profiles gives ? drag that increase with square of speed.....

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Horue said..

EirikB said..

Thanks for answering these questions regarding the new Libel foil, Phil. Please look into the box wing concept next! Maybe a new top foil for the Libel with backwards tilting winglets going all the way down to the bottom foil could be an interesting step in that direction?

Actually, Induced drag decreases with square of speed. But vertical profiles gives ? drag that increase with square of speed.....

The boxwing is the most aerodynamically efficient shape for a given span. See Kroo, I., "Nonplanar Wing Concepts for Increased Aircraft Efficiency", VKI lecture series on Innovative Configurations and Advanced Concepts for Future Civil Aircraft, 2005.

I tried to post a link to the paper, but it didn't work, so anyone interested will have to Google the paper.

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EirikB said..

Horue said..

EirikB said..

Thanks for answering these questions regarding the new Libel foil, Phil. Please look into the box wing concept next! Maybe a new top foil for the Libel with backwards tilting winglets going all the way down to the bottom foil could be an interesting step in that direction?

Actually, Induced drag decreases with square of speed. But vertical profiles gives ? drag that increase with square of speed.....

The boxwing is the most aerodynamically efficient shape for a given span. See Kroo, I., "Nonplanar Wing Concepts for Increased Aircraft Efficiency", VKI lecture series on Innovative Configurations and Advanced Concepts for Future Civil Aircraft, 2005.

I tried to post a link to the paper, but it didn't work, so anyone interested will have to Google the paper.

I would agree.I love the concept because it solves many problems in foils.
Like overfoiling, tip breaching&maneuvrability (half the span) and wingtip injury.
Problem with boxwing designs,as Phil said, is that they are complicated to build.

For aircraft they pose some added challenges because airplane wings are designed to flex and joined wingtips will create huge rigidities&stresses in the thinnest part of the wing structure.

I think watersports foils will not have trouble with that as they do not flex much,and a boxwing design will have a span of 50cm or so, very small,very rigid.

But it is encouraging that the Libel works well as a traditional biplane ,no boxwing.Things can only get better :)

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Horue said..
Hi Everyone and thanks for this topic.

I'm Phil, Horue owner and Designer.

If you have any question with this new LIBEL, please feel free to ask!

Would be happy to explain the benefit (and also the negative point) of this new biplane configuration

Can you tell us more about the wing configurations, e.g. what wing combination is equal to what surface area with a traditional foil such as the XLW or LW?

Horue has been mixing it up in the foil world since the start, always going against the grain. Fun to watch.

Just curious..."libel" is quite a negative word in English. Is there some French meaning or other reason for the name?

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colas said..

GWatto said..
Yep, I think there is a reason why they stopped making biplanes back around WW1

No, biplanes are still made, and are actually better for certain things that require high maneuverability (aerobatics) and low flying speeds (agricultural aircraft).

It could be interesting for foils, despite the higher drag, especially for the reduced wing span that will allow for better stiffness, less breaching in turns, planing at lower speeds. I guess it could have advantages in slow waves / slow speeds / beachstarts. It may become the "tomo" of foils: not something used in the world tour, but fun nonetheless in some conditions.

I chatted with someone from Horue on Insta and asked these questions. In terms of drag, they felt it was roughly the same as a single foil. I asked what the key benefit was therefore and the answer was manoeuvrability.

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juandesooka said..
Just curious..."libel" is quite a negative word in English. Is there some French meaning or other reason for the name?

In french libellule=dragonfly , i guess it refers to that because it does look like one.

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mcrt said..
In french libellule=dragonfly

Good find! I am French and I must say I didn't make the connection...

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mcrt said..

juandesooka said..
Just curious..."libel" is quite a negative word in English. Is there some French meaning or other reason for the name?

In french libellule=dragonfly , i guess it refers to that because it does look like one.

Yes thats what I thought. Only because I still find it a funny word and can't pronounce it properly!

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jagoulet said..

Can you tell us more about the wing configurations, e.g. what wing combination is equal to what surface area with a traditional foil such as the XLW or LW?

Hi James!

We are making the tabulation in order to help customers to choose the right wings for their practices. Will be online soon.


Yes LIBEL is contraction of Libellule in French. We also know its meaning in english, but we decided to keep this name :)

This Libel biplane is an interesting idea for surf foil, where tip breaches are happening very frequently due to trying to fit the foil into the curved shape of the wave, while doing aggressive turns. Waves have enough energy and high aspect wings are sufficient for pumping.

I wonder if the stall and breach/ventilation characteristic is much more of a linear or staged loss of lift? Ventilation air pocket cannot jump to the lower foil!

Also interesting to even consider the lower wing swept forward, to further increase the maneuverability and easy stall?

The Red Baron is back