Is there really a difference in glide between aluminum vs carbon fiber? It has to do with the thickness and not the stiffness. When turning the aluminum mast will bend more. If that makes a big difference. What do you think?
I ride in smal swells and want to glide :)

I would say not all masts are created equal whether they are carbon or aluminum... I think you have to go with specific mast comparisons to have any sort of meaningful discussion. there are stiff alu masts and soft carbon masts and vice versa, and they might all have different profiles.

at the beginning of wing foiling I didn't care... just during COVID we had a long walk to the beach so anything to make carrying the stuff to the water easier was "performance" haha

I agree with Sunset. In my limited capability I would suggest there may be a difference between the 2, but bigger differences will come from changing front foils, rear foils and refinements to technique. If you want to increase glide, there's a lot of things you can do to improve it unless you've maxxed all those things out. I've found the differences in glide between carbon and ali masts isn't easy to feel (in Axis gear at least). Where I can definitely feel differences when I change rear tails over. The vids I've seen from Oskar J where he suggests riding the foil really high in the water column also might be a good thing to think about before just changing up to a carbon mast.
Really depends on how much $ you can justify.

Oh it definitely matters! I've spent $1,500 on the HM carbon mast...it has to matter...right????

My sense is, it should likely be the last piece to the puzzle after you've got your whole set up front wing, fuse, rear wing and board down. If you get to a point where you have the money and the added performance will be worth it, go for it!

DC

What about the composite mast???Is that a compromise ???cost wise or just marketing

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Dick Tatta said..
What about the composite mast???Is that a compromise ???cost wise or just marketing

Just a cost thing in my opinion..

I agree with "it depends" in that it's not as simple as "carbon" versus "aluminum." Specifically, there's a design factor that matters more than just materials.

In a general sense, I found the reduced weight of carbon to add some advantage for getting on foil in light wind. There is also some advantage to carbon when it comes to minimizing potential for corrosion. Beyond these two, I think the biggest factor is design. If there's enough wind, my bet is that the performance difference (when using same brand and model) would be minimal once on foil.

I also think your weight comes into the equation as well as length. Both will have a impact. I also think that some brands offer Alu, carbon (options on %ages) and different designs in the carbon eg Axis Power Carbon and HM Carbon.

I rode a carbon and aluminum cedrus and couldn't tell the difference so i sold the carbon and kept the aluminum.

I've had carbon and currently on Aluminium masts, no noticeable difference in glide. IMHO if you had the cash, a Carbon gives a benefit. if on a budget, aluminium is great. it's all about how much ??? you want to spend. if looking for glide, look at foils.

I have Axis HM 90 cm (?1400) and Alu 82 (cca ?100). The weight is almost exactly the same. HM is noticeably faster. The stiffer connection to the foil is definitely there. It feels good to ride HM.

Is it worth the ?1300 difference? If you can afford it, it does.

For sure, carbon mast is the last thing you would buy. Foils, wings, board, stabs upgrades would be better value. Stabs in particular. For a relatively small price, the difference is big. Switching Axis 400 to 350 for example, is not as expensive, but in my experience, it is a very decent performance boost.

Thanks for all the input! Have to try it side by side and see if it mater. Max out everything else first :)

As said, it depends. One other aspect is responsiveness, the way the material bends and returns to the primary state influences the riding experience. It could actually be more comfortable for a mast to be not to responsive.

It's all a matter of trade-offs. We want light, stiff, cheap/affordable, fast/low drag, durable, interchangeable and good looking. You can't have 'm all.

Ventilation behaviour,drag,stiffness and weight are what matter to me mostly in that order.

I just sold a very stiff,light,ventilation free mast because it had too much drag...

Brands are still finding the right compromise, i think in time we will have masts for light riders/small foils (thinner section,glidier) and masts for heavier riders/big foils.

Difference between alloy and carbon masts is ALOT!!

Alloy masts feel dead and just draggy.

I have been riding both a bit lately and 100% when I have to ride the Alloy 19mm mast it sucks balls. It still kinda does everything but just so much slower and more boring. I jump back on my carbon mast and everything is just so much faster and the life just gets put back into the foil.

If anyone thinks there is not much difference then they are using the wrong carbon masts.

You can have lighter, stiffer thinner and semi affordable and pretty compatible no worries.

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paul.j said..
Difference between alloy and carbon masts is ALOT!!

Alloy masts feel dead and just draggy.

I have been riding both a bit lately and 100% when I have to ride the Alloy 19mm mast it sucks balls. It still kinda does everything but just so much slower and more boring. I jump back on my carbon mast and everything is just so much faster and the life just gets put back into the foil.

If anyone thinks there is not much difference then they are using the wrong carbon masts.

You can have lighter, stiffer thinner and semi affordable and pretty compatible no worries.

Or using the wrong Aluminium one...

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nimo1972 said..

paul.j said..
Difference between alloy and carbon masts is ALOT!!

Alloy masts feel dead and just draggy.

I have been riding both a bit lately and 100% when I have to ride the Alloy 19mm mast it sucks balls. It still kinda does everything but just so much slower and more boring. I jump back on my carbon mast and everything is just so much faster and the life just gets put back into the foil.

If anyone thinks there is not much difference then they are using the wrong carbon masts.

You can have lighter, stiffer thinner and semi affordable and pretty compatible no worries.

Or using the wrong Aluminium one...

Yeah could be that to but the alloy one is the one most people use so not a bad one to compare to I guess.

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paul.j said..
Difference between alloy and carbon masts is ALOT!!

Alloy masts feel dead and just draggy.

I have been riding both a bit lately and 100% when I have to ride the Alloy 19mm mast it sucks balls. It still kinda does everything but just so much slower and more boring. I jump back on my carbon mast and everything is just so much faster and the life just gets put back into the foil.

If anyone thinks there is not much difference then they are using the wrong carbon masts.

You can have lighter, stiffer thinner and semi affordable and pretty compatible no worries.

In my experience drag is completely brand&model dependant , the material has nothing to do with it.

-Takuma 75&85cm alu masts are very glidey and plenty stiff for my 75kg.The section is pretty thin ,they never ventilate,the weight is good.

-Takuma carbon T-bar is even glidier but even at 75cm i can feel it flexing a bit too much.

-Takuma new carbon mast is super stiff...but too thick (imho) and sacrifices a lot of glide.

Carbon masts are (usually) lighter than alu at same dimensions and they have a nice advantage of getting rid of corrosion problems (but only if your fuse is carbon too).

My point is,drag and ventilation behaviour depend on the design (profile,taper,thickness,chord...),not on the material.

I agree with the prior comment that aluminum has a "dead" feel vs carbon. I'm not sure whether it's a difference in flex or difference in vibration absorption, but it is a perceivable difference.


the Takuma alu mast has excellent glide but it feels different to me in a way that I don't love. Whether that difference in feel is worth the price of carbon is up to the user

I have also had issues breaking or bending aluminum masts (specifically with the the Takuma mast) that I haven't ever had with carbon.

Some carbon mast I've tried are just too flexy!! However, when reaching speed on gps....some cavitation might start to occur on thicker alu mast...generally speaking the carbon mast are thinner and has a better profile. Some Alu mast are also poorly designed and unfortunately cavitates even at slow speed and is very frustrating.
So, I prefer a stiff mast and a thinner profile....would like to sacrifice some mm over stiffness but cannot stand cavitation on a mast, it's just a turn-off!!

One can be recycled, the other , well not so sure..probs ends up in the big blue bin.

HI guys,

I think there is a lot more to the Alu vs Carbon argument because, as with all things foiling, it is very complex. Peoples budget, riding style and genre all require different characteristics from a mast.

Aluminium and carbon masts both work just fine, they can both come in stiff or less stiff and heavy or light. The term "Glide" can be better described by lack of drag or efficiency through the water (performance). Some disciplines benefit from greater glide and more top speed, but others will make little difference.

The benefits of carbon are the shape can be infinitely varied in terms of thickness and chord length from plate to fuse. This also depends on the speeds you are normally foiling at. Thinner profiles are faster and more efficient. For low to moderate speed foiling alu or carbon will be perfect.

As aluminium masts are extrusions, their finish is usually a bit rougher than a carbon finish and the trailing edge will not be sharp (adds drag). The thinner profiles in both carbon and aluminium often have stiffness issues. Aluminium is harder to stiffen at thinner profiles without adding even more weight (thicker walls) and cost. The same goes for carbon. High modulus carbon is more expensive and cannot eliminate the mast flex without either adding more carbon, reducing the core thickness (adds weight) and expense. Some carbon masts can be quite light which generally means a foam core. The thickness of the carbon layup, profile thickness and the amount of foam determines stiffness. If you've ever lifted a high performance hi modulus coreless mast, you'll be surprised at how heavy the carbon mast actually is.

Some of the high performance masts now available have little to no core and mostly hi modulus carbon, but they aren't lightweight anymore, but are very thin and stiff. These masts are really only for racers looking for ultimate efficiency. They costs big time due to the amount of carbon, the labour to lay them up and the cost of the process itself (baking prepreg etc)

Back to the average wing foiler. If you are foiling below 25 knots speed, good quality carbon and aluminium will do quite nicely. You could even sharpen the aluminium mast trailing edges to improve efficiency (Don't do this!) as you will remove the anodizing and protective coatings leading to corrosion but you can make it a bit more efficient! Realistically, the average wing foiler will benefit from slightly better performance and lighter weight going with carbon, but at the expense of more cost and the need to protect and care for your mast more than an aluminium mast.

If cost is a factor, and you can rig 10m from the waters edge to your car boot, and ultimate efficiency isn't a high priority, the aluminium is great. Your average quality carbon mast will be lighter and a bit quicker. This is mostly appreciated when doing a long walk up the beach or to the beach.

Thinking even further the advantage of aluminium is it can be recycled easily and you can probably even make a few $$ on the scrap. Carbon, does not really recycle and will end up in landfill at some point

Having said all that, I would never give up my carbon mast, but I have also had some of my most memorable moments foiling on aluminium masts too.

Not sure if this answers all or in fact any questions, but FWIW ... Ride what makes you happy and caters to your chosen discipline.

DM

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ActionSportsWA said..
HI guys,

I think there is a lot more to the Alu vs Carbon argument because, as with all things foiling, it is very complex. Peoples budget, riding style and genre all require different characteristics from a mast.

Aluminium and carbon masts both work just fine, they can both come in stiff or less stiff and heavy or light. The term "Glide" can be better described by lack of drag or efficiency through the water (performance). Some disciplines benefit from greater glide and more top speed, but others will make little difference.

The benefits of carbon are the shape can be infinitely varied in terms of thickness and chord length from plate to fuse. This also depends on the speeds you are normally foiling at. Thinner profiles are faster and more efficient. For low to moderate speed foiling alu or carbon will be perfect.

As aluminium masts are extrusions, their finish is usually a bit rougher than a carbon finish and the trailing edge will not be sharp (adds drag). The thinner profiles in both carbon and aluminium often have stiffness issues. Aluminium is harder to stiffen at thinner profiles without adding even more weight (thicker walls) and cost. The same goes for carbon. High modulus carbon is more expensive and cannot eliminate the mast flex without either adding more carbon, reducing the core thickness (adds weight) and expense. Some carbon masts can be quite light which generally means a foam core. The thickness of the carbon layup, profile thickness and the amount of foam determines stiffness. If you've ever lifted a high performance hi modulus coreless mast, you'll be surprised at how heavy the carbon mast actually is.

Some of the high performance masts now available have little to no core and mostly hi modulus carbon, but they aren't lightweight anymore, but are very thin and stiff. These masts are really only for racers looking for ultimate efficiency. They costs big time due to the amount of carbon, the labour to lay them up and the cost of the process itself (baking prepreg etc)

Back to the average wing foiler. If you are foiling below 25 knots speed, good quality carbon and aluminium will do quite nicely. You could even sharpen the aluminium mast trailing edges to improve efficiency (Don't do this!) as you will remove the anodizing and protective coatings leading to corrosion but you can make it a bit more efficient! Realistically, the average wing foiler will benefit from slightly better performance and lighter weight going with carbon, but at the expense of more cost and the need to protect and care for your mast more than an aluminium mast.

If cost is a factor, and you can rig 10m from the waters edge to your car boot, and ultimate efficiency isn't a high priority, the aluminium is great. Your average quality carbon mast will be lighter and a bit quicker. This is mostly appreciated when doing a long walk up the beach or to the beach.

Thinking even further the advantage of aluminium is it can be recycled easily and you can probably even make a few $$ on the scrap. Carbon, does not really recycle and will end up in landfill at some point

Having said all that, I would never give up my carbon mast, but I have also had some of my most memorable moments foiling on aluminium masts too.

Not sure if this answers all or in fact any questions, but FWIW ... Ride what makes you happy and caters to your chosen discipline.

DM

Thanks for the input! ????

I think a big factor with aluminium masts feeling dead maybe the separate heads not fitting properly. Every one I have ever looked at had some movement between the mast and the head plate. Maybe a welded set up could be better. Anyone tried that?

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nimo1972 said..
I think a big factor with aluminium masts feeling dead maybe the separate heads not fitting properly. Every one I have ever looked at had some movement between the mast and the head plate. Maybe a welded set up could be better. Anyone tried that?

Do not need to weld, just use some thickened epoxy to fill in the gaps.I use Araldit with demould wax on the mast so if you ever need to remove it comes out reasonably easy.
I do this on all connections...super direct feeling.

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nimo1972 said..
I think a big factor with aluminium masts feeling dead maybe the separate heads not fitting properly. Every one I have ever looked at had some movement between the mast and the head plate. Maybe a welded set up could be better. Anyone tried that?

No - thats not what I mean by dead. I think the dead feeling is the result of differences in flex, rebound, and resonance of aluminum vs carbon. I know what loose connections feel like, and they can happen on both carbon and aluminum (assuming multi component assembly).