G'day all,

Any recommendations on mast placement for an Armstrong HS1850 on the Quatro Wing Drifter Pro 5'8''? I'm 6 foot, 205lbs (93kg). Currently setting up in middle of the track with +1 shim on the 232 tail wing. I can get on foil only with a decent gust of wind over 15mph (13knots) with a 6m Duotone Unit. pumping doesn't work under 15mph.
Gracias!
MF

Shoving it forward gives more low end lift.
Back is harder to lift, too far back takes heavy backfoot pressure.
So, find the balance.

15 mph is not a whole Lotta wind.
Try 20.

And if totally forward doesn't work try the zero or even -2 shim.

I'd think there is at least 2" to go forward with the foil. Rider can shuffle back once solidly planing, just before foiling.

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LeeD said..
I'd think there is at least 2" to go forward with the foil. Rider can shuffle back once solidly planing, just before foiling.

Do you even wing? Because this is horrible advice.

So, you're saying the foil mast cannot be moved from the center position?
And your feet can't move wider?

at 205 lbs I'd use the 300 tail for winging.

Good catch, DWF. I am not familiar with Armstrong nomenclature, numbers actually corresponding to surface area. What a novel concept!

If you flip the washers, you can move the mast forward another few mm.

Grantmac.....perhaps my choice of "shuffle" offends your senses....sorry.
I meant.....move foot or feet, however you like.
Shuffle might mean a direct order to you, or a certain type of slide foot movement associated with dance.

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LeeD said..
Grantmac.....perhaps my choice of "shuffle" offends your senses....sorry.
I meant.....move foot or feet, however you like.
Shuffle might mean a direct order to you, or a certain type of slide foot movement associated with dance.

Wing boards don't plane before they fly, at least not with the foil the OP is using.
You DON'T want to be moving feet at any point other than a tack or gybe, slogging and flying need to be in the same position.

If you winged you'd know this.

Wrong, easy to move feet, depending on your skill and experience.
Good wingers...not me...say they wiggle heel to toe to micro adjust on foil.
Even windfoilers move feet easily up on foil or just planing.
When getting up on foil, especially with smaller foils, the board gets lift from the foil and also lift from planing surface, so planing does exist.
No board goes from full displacement to flying high without a mo.ent of the board planing...with assist from foil and rider.

Not everyone is winging on 1800 foils.
Some very good wingers using sub 800 sq cm foils. Windfoilers well below 450 sq cm. foils.

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Grantmac said..

You DON'T want to be moving feet at any point other than a tack or gybe, slogging and flying need to be in the same position.

..Except for when you do. Some boards with tracks set further back using an Armstrong foil require a forward stance to get board speed before shuffling/dancing/moon walking back to the appropriate flying position. I know this because my 6.4 Sunova Aviator requires this technique for early flight even with the mast positioned fully forward. My back foot has to rest nearly against the kick pad once I'm fully powered, but before that can happen I need to be standing further forward on the board. Shorter boards with tracks further forward allow take off stance and full flight stance to be closer in position. There's some nuance here, yo!

For the OP, you can inch the foil forward until it feels like adequate lift has been achieved and/or use zero or negative shims for more lift. Foiling in just under 13 knots at your weight with a 6m is possible but technique will need to be on point. A bigger Stab (300) could help.

When you switch feet, it's impossible to land exactly as you were before, and feet moving is needed to maintain trim.
We are NOT locked in like snowboarding or twin tip kiteboarding.

I have the same Quatro/1850 set up and I put the mast all the way forward (but not with the washers flipped). I was running it mid-track but I took it out behind a boat and found it is much better balanced all the way forward. I am about 160 lbs. Edited to add that I did the Kane de Wilde method of checking balance (lifting board with foil by center of lift of foil and checking board for level) and all the way forward was the most balanced position.

I don't use straps and I do occasionally adjust feet on the fly. For example I sometimes move my back foot forward after getting up on foil. When surfing waves it's also helpful to adjust weight forward by moving your stance.

MasFoil

I have the 105 Quatro/5'6".I am 185 lbs. With the HS1850 I need 12 knots with a 5.0 wing. Mast is sitting about midway in the tracks (balance close to KD Maui balance method). To get earlier lift use the 0 shim. Even better try the -2 shim. They brought that shim out just after the HS1250 came out. I bought it and used it for the 1250 and found much earlier lift( small expense on speed). Have not tried with 1850, but will.

Technique is critical in lighter winds. The HS 1850 is thicker than the HS1550V2 but has more drag. It pretty well has the same profile/plan view with a shorter cord. You need speed to overcome that. Heading on a reach and pumping (actually scooping the air) with the gusts. As you feel some speed lean forward to help with pumping the foil and controlling the lift. The lean forward I found key with the HS1850 otherwise it wants to lift and stall(slap drop onto water). It can be relaxed as you feel the speed develop and the board separates from the water.

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Can555 said..

Grantmac said..

You DON'T want to be moving feet at any point other than a tack or gybe, slogging and flying need to be in the same position.

..Except for when you do. Some boards with tracks set further back using an Armstrong foil require a forward stance to get board speed before shuffling/dancing/moon walking back to the appropriate flying position. I know this because my 6.4 Sunova Aviator requires this technique for early flight even with the mast positioned fully forward. My back foot has to rest nearly against the kick pad once I'm fully powered, but before that can happen I need to be standing further forward on the board. Shorter boards with tracks further forward allow take off stance and full flight stance to be closer in position. There's some nuance here, yo!

For the OP, you can inch the foil forward until it feels like adequate lift has been achieved and/or use zero or negative shims for more lift. Foiling in just under 13 knots at your weight with a 6m is possible but technique will need to be on point. A bigger Stab (300) could help.

That sounds more like a board/foil mismatch to me.

I'm not talking about subtle movement of feet a cm or two. DLee is talking about significantly shifting them around from stationary to planing to flying which in my experience is a setup problem at least when talking about the front foot. The rear should be carrying very little load and be free to roam as needed.

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Foilnut said..
MasFoil

I have the 105 Quatro/5'6".I am 185 lbs. With the HS1850 I need 12 knots with a 5.0 wing. Mast is sitting about midway in the tracks (balance close to KD Maui balance method). To get earlier lift use the 0 shim. Even better try the -2 shim. They brought that shim out just after the HS1250 came out. I bought it and used it for the 1250 and found much earlier lift( small expense on speed). Have not tried with 1850, but will.

Technique is critical in lighter winds. The HS 1850 is thicker than the HS1550V2 but has more drag. It pretty well has the same profile/plan view with a shorter cord. You need speed to overcome that. Heading on a reach and pumping (actually scooping the air) with the gusts. As you feel some speed lean forward to help with pumping the foil and controlling the lift. The lean forward I found key with the HS1850 otherwise it wants to lift and stall(slap drop onto water). It can be relaxed as you feel the speed develop and the board separates from the water.

I have the 5'6" , weigh 200 lbs (90 kgs), use a 6.4 m wing for lite conditions. I've noticed on good days, the 6.4 gives too much power so considering getting a 5.0 . Originally started with the 1850 and 78 cm mast 3/4 to the front, but now ride 3/4 back. I like this spot because it moves the center of lift is closer to the mid point between the strap inserts, and requires more back foot pressure to keep the foil up. Ultimately it comes down to personal experience, my preference is more " surfboard feel". I've always used the zero shim, never got around to the other shim (+1) that came with the kit. My local spot has fickle winds, so learning how to pump was critical for lite day winging.

Actually, I keep my front foot in the same spot, but do move my rear foot maybe 3-4" back once there is enough wind to think about pumping the wing.
Maybe I like a wide stance in +15 windspeeds
and need to be more forward biased when slogging.

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Foilnut said..
MasFoil

I have the 105 Quatro/5'6".I am 185 lbs. With the HS1850 I need 12 knots with a 5.0 wing. Mast is sitting about midway in the tracks (balance close to KD Maui balance method). To get earlier lift use the 0 shim. Even better try the -2 shim. They brought that shim out just after the HS1250 came out. I bought it and used it for the 1250 and found much earlier lift( small expense on speed). Have not tried with 1850, but will.

Technique is critical in lighter winds. The HS 1850 is thicker than the HS1550V2 but has more drag. It pretty well has the same profile/plan view with a shorter cord. You need speed to overcome that. Heading on a reach and pumping (actually scooping the air) with the gusts. As you feel some speed lean forward to help with pumping the foil and controlling the lift. The lean forward I found key with the HS1850 otherwise it wants to lift and stall(slap drop onto water). It can be relaxed as you feel the speed develop and the board separates from the water.

yeh it's like.

pump up, lean forward, level off (which means slightly back again), then glide.

I can't say for sure how much my feet position changes but I'm continually adjusting (no straps) depending on wind speed / gusts / water movement and of course quite a bit in waves. But yeh mainly back foot further back against heel pad on a bigger wave. Not sure there is much movement on the start though, adjustment comes as you are in the glide. Suppose it depends.


in the end it all comes down to "feel" and water time. Quantifying with discrete rules or instructions can only be so helpful.

Quattro's seem to favor pushing the foil back a bit. My Axis set up is happy all the way back.

Im on a Quatro with a Lift setup about 2/3 of the way forward. Front straps in a V setup as far forward as possible. I like the swing weight and balance here. Sometimes wish the straps would move forward a little bit more so I could shift the foil forward more too and reduce swing weight even more - might play with this strapless.

Reporting back! Thanks to all for the recos.

I've ended up with mast forward (an inch shy of full forward) and the +1 shim. That's helped a lot with lift and today was able to fly in sub 15mph winds. However, my front foot is now too far forward from the strap inserts. Next run I'm moving the mast 1 inch back (2 inches from front of the track) and changing to the 0 shim.
Anyone here tried the -2 shim? How much is the drop in speed from using this shim?

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MasFoil said..
Reporting back! Thanks to all for the recos.

I've ended up with mast forward (an inch shy of full forward) and the +1 shim. That's helped a lot with lift and today was able to fly in sub 15mph winds. However, my front foot is now too far forward from the strap inserts. Next run I'm moving the mast 1 inch back (2 inches from front of the track) and changing to the 0 shim.
Anyone here tried the -2 shim? How much is the drop in speed from using this shim?

-2 shim does not drop speed which is counter intuitive. I am surprised you do not have enough lift with the 1850 it is a beast of a foil.

Doesn't matter where the foil is placed, its all about foot position above the foil, the more lift forward and more back control, is for assuming you already know you foot position, for example if you have straps inserted and you don't want to move them. So mover the foil forward puts your foot behind the CoG of the foil/mast and more lift, further back, place feet in front of COG and less lift more control.

Try going out with no straps and put the foil at the back or even in the middle, start with your feet in front of the CoG and slowly work back until you get a bit of lift, then from here this is your sweet spot for that foil. So if you move the foil 2" back you need to move your feet 2" back, For example if you then wanted to install straps you maybe too far forward or back. The Kd Maui method is a good idea as well to balance the board, put the foil on lift the board from the center of the front wing and adjust until the board is horizontal from the ground.

Happy Winging,