I'm looking for some advice on choosing my next foil board. My current setup is a 92L, 5'10" x 25" old-style board that's getting pretty beat up (delaminating in places and several dings), so it's time for something new.Skill-wise, I'm an average foiler - I'm comfortable on the Duotone Glide 900 (previous generation), can jibe reliably, and somewhat okay at tacking. I can catch and ride chop for a little bit, but still can't connect sections. Right now, I can only foil pump for about 10 seconds.I'm suffering a bit from analysis paralysis. Should I go for a sinker board, as many say it feels much better in the air, or would a midlength closer to my weight (I'm 82 kg) be more suitable for my stage and goals? My main aims are to improve pumping, get better in chop/waves, and progress to connecting sections. Would love to hear thoughts, board recommendations, and any insights for progressing from people who've faced similar choices!

PS. I also have an inflatable Gong HIPE Cruzador 6.0x19'' 96l which feels very thick and wobbly in any kind of chop, hardly use it because of that.

I have tried a multitude of different boards (mostly Armstrong and Appletree) from bodyweight minus 30 to plus 20 litres.
Soap bar sinkers are not much fun when the wind isn't steady and will hinder learning progress to some degree - mainly due to the fact that falling off and restarting is a pain, so the learning curve flattens somewhat in order to avoid having to restart in less than ideal conditions.

I now have a mid length at bodyweight minus 15 liters and really enjoy it. As soon as there is enough wind to get power in the wing, it surfaces and can easily be pumped on to foil. It takes a little bit to get used to as they are still reasonably compact, especially in width. Any smaller than bodyweight minus 15 and I believe the ease of getting started in marginal conditions will become problematic.

The downside of an ML is a slight increase in swing weight (marginally noticeable), they're not for jumping, not as convenient for travel, and more unstable in roll whilst in displacement mode due to its narrow width.

Every board has a compromise, but so far the ML has the least drawbacks.

i'm 90 kgs and have a midlength 6'3" Cabrinha Swift 100L, an Omen 72L 5'7", and an Appletree Skipper DW Prone 57L 5'7". The Appletree is by far the most fun to wing on when there's enough wind, but brutal when it dies. The Omen is next in terms of fun and my go-to in most circumstances, and finally the Swift is for lightest conditions. It's not that the Swift sucks, but the larger the board, the less responsive it will be.

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wingfoilernoob said..
I'm looking for some advice on choosing my next foil board. My current setup is a 92L, 5'10" x 25" old-style board that's getting pretty beat up (delaminating in places and several dings), so it's time for something new.Skill-wise, I'm an average foiler - I'm comfortable on the Duotone Glide 900 (previous generation), can jibe reliably, and somewhat okay at tacking. I can catch and ride chop for a little bit, but still can't connect sections. Right now, I can only foil pump for about 10 seconds.I'm suffering a bit from analysis paralysis. Should I go for a sinker board, as many say it feels much better in the air, or would a midlength closer to my weight (I'm 82 kg) be more suitable for my stage and goals? My main aims are to improve pumping, get better in chop/waves, and progress to connecting sections. Would love to hear thoughts, board recommendations, and any insights for progressing from people who've faced similar choices!

PS. I also have an inflatable Gong HIPE Cruzador 6.0x19'' 96l which feels very thick and wobbly in any kind of chop, hardly use it because of that.

When you say sinker I assume you mean something short and probably -20l or so.

Midlength for now. At your stage the benefit of being encouraged to fall, or at the least come off foil, is more valuable than a tiny boards maneuverability. The tiny board will discourage you from trying new maneuvers and pushing yourself, you'll be more conservative as you avoid the restart. The midlength will also allow you the use of a parawing once your swell riding skills are up to speed.

When you are nailing your swell rides, consistently getting 10+ minute linkups and are pushing the midlength as hard as you want, that's when I would consider the tiny board again. At that point you might even say to yourself "I'd rather downsize a foil for performance instead of the board." and that's okay as well.

Midlength. Bwalnut nailed the reasoning. If you are serious about learning to pump I recommend dock starting as the best bang for buck detour into a power limited foiling discipline.

Pretty sound advice in here, my perspective as someone who switched from a midlength (80L) to a sinker (48L and 42L) Armstrong surfs so not wide soap bar boards but also not ML

I much prefer riding the sinker to the point I'll take it out in marginal conditions where I probably shouldn't but also agree if there's not enough wind no amount of effort or technique is going to save you a paddle in. There are also times where I play it conservative and will take out a larger wing than the rest of the crew (I prefer the smaller board/foil with slightly bigger wing combo)

Having said that if I do have wind (and it doesn't have to be much just enough to fill the sail and give me something to pump against) I'd almost say my sinker is "easier" to start. As soon as I can get it anywhere near the surface a couple of well timed pumps of the wing and of the board and I'm usually up and going due to the boards lightness it barely spends any time planing on the surface, it's either sunk or foiling if that makes sense.

Advantage wise I mostly feel it surfing waves (which is our primary form of winging here) the board disappears but having said that a ML in the same volume may provide the same feeling I haven't tested one but they do get pretty narrow at that volume. There's also been times the wind has died I've paddled in, ditched the wing on the beach and paddled back out for a prone on the same board which is a fun novelty.

Disadvantage wise, it can start to feel pretty sketchy if you come down in a lull way offshore and you're sitting half submerged with big fish in the area.

Final thoughts, a modern design of either style board will probably be great but I'd recommend demo'ing a variety of volume before you commit as I did find there was a couple of volumes which felt a bit of a mix between sink and corky resulting them on being less stable than something slightly lower volume again.

Newer sinkers get up quite early for their size. I am 70 kg, and I went down from a 2023 75L 23.5" Fanatic Sky Style (the yellow, slab-sided one) to a 60L 21.5" Appletree Appleslice, and the bottom end is the same. The only difference is that when the wind dies, I can't balance on it as well (but being narrower, it's easier to paddle and do the rodeo start).

So you guys that ride sinkers, what exactly do you like about them? Have you guys ridden a reasonably modern narrow board around 100l since getting one ? The reason I ask is that I love my DW board, & do pretty much the same things on it as the others around me do on sinkers (admittedly they are much better foilers) however I'll get a couple of laps in before some of them get up on foil again.
I see vids of some top guys shredding on bigger boards so wondering if there's actually that much difference or it's more that you get to a level where you don't want to be seen with training wheels on?
I downsized to a neutral board & it was such a pain to get going again that I went up in litreage & don't feel that I lost anything in handling. I'll probably get a small board soon simply cos of FOMO but just wondering if there's much in it.

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Microsurfer said..
So you guys that ride sinkers, what exactly do you like about them? Have you guys ridden a reasonably modern narrow board around 100l since getting one ? The reason I ask is that I love my DW board, & do pretty much the same things on it as the others around me do on sinkers (admittedly they are much better foilers) however I'll get a couple of laps in before some of them get up on foil again.
I see vids of some top guys shredding on bigger boards so wondering if there's actually that much difference or it's more that you get to a level where you don't want to be seen with training wheels on?
I downsized to a neutral board & it was such a pain to get going again that I went up in litreage & don't feel that I lost anything in handling. I'll probably get a small board soon simply cos of FOMO but just wondering if there's much in it.

Yep I actually SUP foil surf 85L and 95L boards which I guess you'd almost consider mid-lengths and my wing board before this was a 85L mid-length.

On truly very very light wind days where I'll need to slog around waiting for gusts I'll take my "sup" out to wing but I really try to avoid it as I much prefer the "feel" of riding/surfing my sinker and I truly don't believe it's that much harder to start than my mid-lengths if there's any sort of wind. I'm in gusty/lully Sydney so it's not like we have epic consistent wind like maui/hood either.

Neutral buoyancy is also a weird area sometimes it can be a bit stuck in the middle and too corky and harder vs a sinker (mine is -22L and now after a bit of practice actually wish I'd gone a bit lower again)

I'm definitely in the minority in my local crew with most guys on ML's, but even today most didn't bother going out as it was 15kn at best but I got going on my 48L board, 810x foil and 6m wing, as long as there's enough wind to give you something to balance and pull against as soon as that board is moving forward because they are so small and light you can really pump it up with your legs pretty quickly, it's then easier to keep on foil due to lighter and more nimble and easy to throw in some pumps.

Now a ML of the same volume as my sinker could feel just as good but they get pretty damn skinny in those volumes and kind of thick vs my surf 48 also don't get me wrong I DON'T believe riding a sinker is necessarily better or more advanced (in fact I want to make clear it's easier than you'd think and some of our crew rips way harder than I do on their setups) but for someone like me who wants the board to disappear as much as possible and get as much foil feel as I can it's the board I pickup at every opportunity and my next step on really windy days is to see how far off being able to wing my 29L prone board is.

Ok good info. I'd take from that that you kinda have a goal of foiling the smallest board you can when conditions suit. I guess I don't know what I'm missing out on so might be good to have a session on a sinker to see if I prefer it.

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Microsurfer said..
Ok good info. I'd take from that that you kinda have a goal of foiling the smallest board you can when conditions suit. I guess I don't know what I'm missing out on so might be good to have a session on a sinker to see if I prefer it.

I don't know if it's so much a goal more so I feel a lot more comfortable and in control of lighter, nimble setups and particular like having good feel of my foil through my feet. I do also enjoy a challenge and reaping the rewards of a bit of hard work (which foiling never stops dishing up)

I also don't believe in changing gear or spending money on the latest and greatest just for the sake of it, if you are happy with your current setup there's absolutely no need to change anything but as for myself I find the more time I spend on foil the more precise I can be with saying I'd like to change this little thing about my board, or my foil etc which will make foiling feel even better to me and only then do I make the purchase/change.

I guess that's a long way of saying if you don't feel your current board is too cumbersome or holding back your progression, don't even think about a sinker yet, wait until it becomes obvious that's the step you want to take.

i bought my appletree 57L (a sinker for me at 90 kgs) to use specifically with foil assist, but i couldn't get any connectivity with the thing, so i ended up trying it for winging. i was amazed at how easily i could get up on it (with the right amount of wind) but more so, i felt my winging instantly improved. of course it didn't really, but the small board made everything i did feel better, more reactive. i'm not a great winger, but the sinker made me realize that the bigger boards were actually holding me back; i think i fell less on the sinker because what i wanted to do translated better thru the board. so yeah, a sinker is worth a go.

You should progress with foils and boards together.

Using a traditional wing board that's 25-26" wide makes it much harder to take off when paired with today's smaller, modern boards-unless the wind is really strong. .... A smaller, high-aspect foil requires a narrower board in order to get up on foil in light wind conditions.

so the question is, what foils do you ride ?

If you ride a Gong, 19'' width board, then go for a custom or hard board 80-85L (aprox), length of 6'2 (aprox) x 19''-20'' width as a one-board quiver, consistent with 2x high aspect foils in the range of 800-1100 cm2

I've found ML boards are a good way to hide volume. With traditional boards at 87kg, I was riding 60/65l to keep things fun, with a good ML board I'm stepping up my everyday board to 70-75l and happily going on 90l when it's light. I used to dread riding a traditional 85l board. If you're falling frequently and don't want to struggle, going a little bigger on volume can make things easier.... also I like to ride a small wing and a medium small foil (620 or 850cm) and a 3.5 or 3.0 wing all the time, so a little extra volume and glide helps. I find the trim for riding swell/wakes and pumping is very balanced, but dialing in your setup is also crucial... it's amazing when you get on someone else's setup despite having same/similar equipment and feeling the difference.

Board size will also depend on your local conditions: wind, gust, current, wind line, volatility, etc... This time of year (offseason) I just take the 90l most of the time... I've had 20min slogs out to the wind line... not happening happily on my 75l

I just had a very long paddle after an offshore foil versus wing incident. I'll be sticking with a body weight board thanks

I just had a very long paddle after an offshore foil versus wing incident. I'll be sticking with a body weight board thanks

After reading all of the above, it's clear that it comes down to personal choice and your riding style.
I have 3 boards and tried many. 89kg.I don't like boards that are not true sinkers, IMO anything from -10 to -20L are hard work, they float too much and are fighting the board trying to float but you are still swimming when the wind drops. -30l and under they are easier to start, the board settles underwater and it is very to go under the wing. Once the board is on the surface they pump into foil easy.
neutral and above your body weight are easy in light wind, a handful with strong winds and chop.
Personally I dont like length, both my wing boards are 4'10" 50L and 60L when ever a try a mid length or my surf SUP board (6'8" x 24" 115l) they get on foil easy but to me that's the only thing they do really well, everything else feels like a compromise compared to a sinker. But if you ride a gusty light wind spot they are definitely the go, and a sinker would be painful.
I am now riding my sup board to learn to parawing, and I already want to go smaller but not sure a sinker is a good idea.want to try a 90l board.

Thanks to everyone for the valuable input. What do you think about the older models of the armstrong downwind board from 2 years ago 85L: 6'3 x 18 ?" x 5 ? It looks like it shaped like a current style midlength boards but not sure if the volume distribution is good for winging and maybe even parawinging.
www.undergroundsurf.co.nz/product/32806/armstrong-foils-downwind-cheap-mid-length-for-winging-sup-foil-board

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wingfoilernoob said..
Thanks to everyone for the valuable input. What do you think about the older models of the armstrong downwind board from 2 years ago 85L: 6'3 x 18 ?" x 5 ? It looks like it shaped like a current style midlength boards but not sure if the volume distribution is good for winging and maybe even parawinging.
www.undergroundsurf.co.nz/product/32806/armstrong-foils-downwind-cheap-mid-length-for-winging-sup-foil-board

Havent ridden that board, but I've ridden similar and willing to bet that board is a lot to manage in challenging surface conditions. In my experience, neutral volume packed into those dims (particularly the narrow width and pin tail) is no bueno for stability. That length is nice, but I like something closer to 20" width, some width in the tail, and a flat hull to stabilize it on the water.

Dropping from 25" to 18" will be rough and I think you lose in flight performance when you're that narrow.

Neutral Buoyant and that width is a no for me, you don't need that kind of "efficiency" when powered by the wing and it won't be much fun in choppy conditions.

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wingfoilernoob said..
Thanks to everyone for the valuable input. What do you think about the older models of the armstrong downwind board from 2 years ago 85L: 6'3 x 18 ?" x 5 ? It looks like it shaped like a current style midlength boards but not sure if the volume distribution is good for winging and maybe even parawinging.
www.undergroundsurf.co.nz/product/32806/armstrong-foils-downwind-cheap-mid-length-for-winging-sup-foil-board

If you're in NZ, give Nick a call at Underground. He seems to be pretty accommodating at arranging demos and giving good advice.

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Velocicraptor said..
Havent ridden that board, but I've ridden similar and willing to bet that board is a lot to manage in challenging surface conditions. In my experience, neutral volume packed into those dims (particularly the narrow width and pin tail) is no bueno for stability. That length is nice, but I like something closer to 20" width, some width in the tail, and a flat hull to stabilize it on the water..

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drc13 said..
Neutral Buoyant and that width is a no for me, you don't need that kind of "efficiency" when powered by the wing and it won't be much fun in choppy conditions.

Fair points. I was afraid of that, and it does get choppy where I usually wing. Might look at the new Sunova Coaster then
6'0" x 21" x 4 15/16" @85L . What do you think?

www.surffx.com.au/collections/foilboarding/products/sunova-casey-coaster-foilboard?_pos=20&_fid=fbd1d9ca6&_ss=c . I still haven't completely ruled out a sinker, around -20L . Will try to get a demo somewhere.

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kiwiupover said..
If you're in NZ, give Nick a call at Underground. He seems to be pretty accommodating at arranging demos and giving good advice.

I am actually in Sydney but saw that other people shipped from NZ and the deal on that particular board is quite attractive. But it seems like the consensus is that it wouldn't be a good option.

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BWalnut said..
Dropping from 25" to 18" will be rough and I think you lose in flight performance when you're that narrow.

I am not too afraid to suffer through several sessions as long as it ends up being a good choice.

I would advice against an 85L for your weight though but go a little below. My current board is a 75L for my 97-100kg weight, which I'd not really classify as a sinker but as a medium board: above +10L=large/lw, between -10 and -30 = medium/allround and below -30L would be a sinker. Between +10 and -10 is a little bit of a size range I find really uncomfortable because it kinda tends to bounce around in chop or waves more.

I did buy a 5'0 54L which for me is at -45L, but its too much work to get up with a small foil in reasonable wind so I end up not really using it.

I think at your weight a 74L (-8L) / 5'6 (or even 65L (-17L) / 5'4) F-One Crossover or similar sized Duotone Skybrid is the golden ticket as a one board quiver. Will feel way smaller than you have and be as easy if not easier to get up than your current board. I have an 83L (-17L for me) crossover on order for my 97-100 kgs as one board quiver. Went for the 83 because when I tried it it was faster to get up by a big margin than my current 75L 5'4 older F-One board, but also felt smaller in the air.

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wingfoilernoob said..
I am not too afraid to suffer through several sessions as long as it ends up being a good choice.

I think it's a longshot that you'll see it as a good choice long term. The takeoff will be excellent once you sort out the balance. Much easier to use this board with a parawing than with a traditional wing. In flight, what's your foil span? If it's over 900mm and you're using a mast longer than 80cm then 18" width starts becoming questionable for having the leverage to really move that board around aggressively. Once you reach 1000mm span you can't position as well on swell for linking because your ability to make an 18" wide board turn a 1000mm span foil to get into position isn't very good.

Where abouts in Sydney are you? My mate works at Kitepower (I have zero affiliation with them) but they have a pretty decent range of boards they'll let you demo if you're seriously interested. It's how I ended up on the Surf 48 (but also really liked the appletree)

I also looked at the Sunova Coaster 85L as my potential SUP surf board it looks to be a nice board but I actually ended up ordering a Amos Cypher Wing/Parawing as I really wanted to keep weight down and it will be built with there very new carbon/kevlar construction so figured I'd give it a shot. It will be a SUP and Parawing board for me but i will wing it to test it out but unfortunately won't be able to provide feedback until late January I suspect. I still think if you're at the level where you're getting every gybe and can kind of tack you can go for less volume than 85L personally.

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drc13 said..
Where abouts in Sydney are you? My mate works at Kitepower (I have zero affiliation with them) but they have a pretty decent range of boards they'll let you demo if you're seriously interested. It's how I ended up on the Surf 48 (but also really liked the appletree)

I also looked at the Sunova Coaster 85L as my potential SUP surf board it looks to be a nice board but I actually ended up ordering a Amos Cypher Wing/Parawing as I really wanted to keep weight down and it will be built with there very new carbon/kevlar construction so figured I'd give it a shot. It will be a SUP and Parawing board for me but i will wing it to test it out but unfortunately won't be able to provide feedback until late January I suspect. I still think if you're at the level where you're getting every gybe and can kind of tack you can go for less volume than 85L personally.

Thanks for the tip. I am in Maroubra and have dealt with Kitepower (bought some small items from them). I even demoed an old 60l Armstrong board almost 2 years ago. Back then I was a beginner and that board was clearly too early for me. Now I am way more confident :) . Looking to see if I can try the old style sunova pilot surf 5'8" x 22.1/2" @65L

Would be keen to hear how you find Amos Cypher once you use it.

To add to the votes, I would go the ML. I went from a short and wide wind wing board to the ML and it was gamechanging.

I went from a 4'6 to a 5'10 and it did not feel any longer and felt more maneuverable. (Amos Sultan 5'10 x 18 x 85L).

Narrow boards are not as bad as you think, and in my case I found it was better because what I lost in roll stability I picked up in pitch stability (the 4'6 was not great in short period large swell as you'd get thrown off the front or back), and it feels more responsive for the same volume as it kind of rolls on axis with your feet more than just turning with your weight. Its also super easy to get going in marginal conditions, and if you intend to shift to parawinging then its a perfect board to transition into that.

With newer board shapes I suspect 19-20 is probably the sweet spot but if you have a board with similar dims to mine and you get it at a good price, the first session will be a bit of a learning curve but after that you'll be absolutely having a great time and you'll get it back in being able to get up in some marginal conditions.

For me at 82kg I think my perfect dims would probably be 5'8 x 19.5 x 70L

It really depend on your typical conditions and if you can, go for a 2 boards quiverI do think for low wind and if you want to reduce front wing and hand wing, a long mid-length with at least 15-20L above your weight..I do run mine +40l...and I go in any condition lake...I'm often the only one foiling. If you go big, go big! There is no point going your weight...or near your weight, unless you are foiling in an area where wind is steady and over 20knts all the time. ML are narrow and you really feel you can crank rail to rail, I really enjoy that board. I do also have a 65 and a 50L for when wind is heavier...if you want to learn jumping tricks...my 50L needs to land with fwd speed if not I'll sink...and will need to catch some air with my wing if not I'm sinking (I'M 75KG)...from 60L and more I can stand and wait....so 60 or 65 vs 50L makes a BIG difference while landing tricks...at my poor level anyways.

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wingfoilernoob said..
Thanks to everyone for the valuable input. What do you think about the older models of the armstrong downwind board from 2 years ago 85L: 6'3 x 18 ?" x 5 ? It looks like it shaped like a current style midlength boards but not sure if the volume distribution is good for winging and maybe even parawinging.
www.undergroundsurf.co.nz/product/32806/armstrong-foils-downwind-cheap-mid-length-for-winging-sup-foil-board

I tried to buy this board. They made a mistake and sent me the 96L 6'8 by mistake. I'm 70kg.
I love it, it gets up real easy and flies nice, touchdowns are a non-issue, i think the 6'3 wouldve been fine as well but i kinda like the length when taking off. it feels shorter and handles waay better than my previous 6'6 120l soap bar.
side to side stability is less but i don't find it's a problem, its still 20x more stable than a shortboard.

I ended up buying the Axis Frank Mini DART 80L (I'm about 82?kg). Figured that in the future I will likely take up parawinging and this board will work for that. So far, I'm really liking it for winging. I've had about half a dozen sessions on it and experienced most of the benefits you guys talked about:

* It feels much smaller in the air compared to my previous board. The more centered stance makes a big difference.
* The biggest surprise is how well it maintains speed on touchdowns. I didn't expect such a noticeable improvement. Before, a slow-speed touchdown - say after a sloppy tack - usually meant coming off foil. With this board, you bounce back up, even in light wind.
* Getting on foil is easier. The board carries speed better between pumps. I went down one hand-wing size in one session, and it still worked great.

Balancing on the narrower board hasn't been an issue. I've been a bit conservative, using bigger wings for sessions in choppier conditions, which made things easier. The only slight negative is the thickness - it's almost an inch thicker than my old board - but I got used to that after a session.