Just curious.

With the longer narrower barracuda boards looking real good for getting up a lot quicker for downwinding. Would this apply for winging.

I was browsing foiling videos the other night and saw something on the 7'0 naish ascend prone foil board. THought that might be a cool wing board. Only 65 liters but narrower and longer water line for easy take off.

Any thoughts good or bad..

I have no experience with sinkers but by upping the length you might be adding more of the "swing weight" in the worst place possible which people are targetting to reduce by going to a sinker.

My board is 5'10*25 and 90L, subjectively speaking I think it gets going sooner than shorter boards.

Did ask Oskar J how he or Armie can swing around rather fast their new 'long' downwind board winging and he said its the mast very far forward .. kind of make sense to me

I think that shorter sinker boards should be able to start earlier if you have a very good leg pumping technique but longer boards should easier achieve foiling speed without pumping. I ride quite a short board (4'6 / 137 cm, 65l) but I am light (72 kg) and I can ride it as long as there is a bit of wind. I expect that for me a longer board of the same volume would start foiling earlier.

It would just add drag being 7ft and an old shape.

Shape would need to be Kalama style to work. Narrow, with his style tail.

The key is making the water flow off the back drag free simulating the low drag of 14 ft race SUPs and OC1s.

I'm planning on getting a DW Sup Board at some point in the next year or so to double as a DW torture machine (as I learn) and a light wind Wing board. My 60L FG Armstrong board is great, but I feel like I could eek out a few extra knots on the low end when taking off with a longer board. My problem is the FG has a forward mast position, so I end up sinking the nose when trying to get up in really light wind. A longer, skinnier board would allow more forward speed and the hull nose would bounce off the water when pumping up, rather than submerging. Writing that sentence made me realize that I need to adjust my settings for LW conditions....negative tail shim (as opposed to neutral or slightly positive) and further aft mast position, which would allow more nose surface area and better planning on my current setup. My normal/high wind mast setting is almost at 7 currently. Moving it back to 3 or 4 would allow a further aft stance.

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ninjatuna said..
Just curious.

With the longer narrower barracuda boards looking real good for getting up a lot quicker for downwinding. Would this apply for winging.

I was browsing foiling videos the other night and saw something on the 7'0 naish ascend prone foil board. THought that might be a cool wing board. Only 65 liters but narrower and longer water line for easy take off.

Any thoughts good or bad..

This is purely brainstorming. I'm playing with boards from my weight in volume 100%, to 25 %...so for 75kg I do have:78,60,48,20LIf you are talking purely light wind. Let say you have a hand wing that is starting to fly comfortably in 5knts, can pump efficiently in 8. and will make you move fwd quite fast at 10 knts but cannot foil without pumping and during that day...there is no gust over 11 knts.A long narrow light board will be the one who will glide the most and will unstick from the water very rapidly I assume if it's narrow, so I assume that would be the one who will foil the first. About your weight in volume I would think it will be the best of both world, at 80% your weight you will not be able to kneel down until wind is in the 6 knts and 8 knts you will stand up and start to pump and probably be able to foil in the 8 knts bracket. After that I don't see the point of having long and narrow board?The advantage of the board closer to your weight, you will be able to start pumping sooner....while closer to 80% of your weight, you will sit while the other one can move and go hunt for the gust coming...if not moving a 80% will sink up to your waist and would need a 6 - 8 knts stand up.Now, semi-sinker(60%) to sinker...that will probably require the closer to 10knts + to stand up...and will probably foil in the 10-12 knts bracket?But that is purely as discussion material, because in real life, wind will be 5 gusting to 12...than 8 gusting to 14.....so rarely 6-11 knts only, not where I live anyways. What do you think.

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NordRoi said..

ninjatuna said..
Just curious.

With the longer narrower barracuda boards looking real good for getting up a lot quicker for downwinding. Would this apply for winging.

I was browsing foiling videos the other night and saw something on the 7'0 naish ascend prone foil board. THought that might be a cool wing board. Only 65 liters but narrower and longer water line for easy take off.

Any thoughts good or bad..

This is purely brainstorming. I'm playing with boards from my weight in volume 100%, to 25 %...so for 75kg I do have:78,60,48,20LIf you are talking purely light wind. Let say you have a hand wing that is starting to fly comfortably in 5knts, can pump efficiently in 8. and will make you move fwd quite fast at 10 knts but cannot foil without pumping and during that day...there is no gust over 11 knts.A long narrow light board will be the one who will glide the most and will unstick from the water very rapidly I assume if it's narrow, so I assume that would be the one who will foil the first. About your weight in volume I would think it will be the best of both world, at 80% your weight you will not be able to kneel down until wind is in the 6 knts and 8 knts you will stand up and start to pump and probably be able to foil in the 8 knts bracket. After that I don't see the point of having long and narrow board?The advantage of the board closer to your weight, you will be able to start pumping sooner....while closer to 80% of your weight, you will sit while the other one can move and go hunt for the gust coming...if not moving a 80% will sink up to your waist and would need a 6 - 8 knts stand up.Now, semi-sinker(60%) to sinker...that will probably require the closer to 10knts + to stand up...and will probably foil in the 10-12 knts bracket?But that is purely as discussion material, because in real life, wind will be 5 gusting to 12...than 8 gusting to 14.....so rarely 6-11 knts only, not where I live anyways. What do you think.

I think you are on the money.

My experience.
65kg and mostly learnt on a 69l 5'2 and last 4 months on a 50 litre 4' 10 x 21. I intentionally went a little longer and narrower. You describe above perfectly how I can still get going at the very bottom end but can't hunt while waiting for the little puff to foil. Technique and timing become critical but board gets off the water too easy when you get it right. 5m at the very bottom and almost always 4m (95%) and from 10k and up.

I think foil choice is more critical than board at around or below your weight in volume in the light conditions that you describe.

Have a look at the Slingshot SkyWalker ..... They were built for prone foiling in the early days and are 5'10" .... They are an excellent low volume wing foiling board and the swing weight is negligible.

I have no issues doing a stink bug start on it @ 110kg.

Interesting video that includes a discussion of different board lengths as well as excellent stink bug tutorial!

Been riding only sinkers and semi sinkers. @77kg - 39L and 60L.
no doubt longer board to a point may pump up quicker once on surface, standing etc .

problem is not being able to hunt for the wind - then capitalising on a gust - ready to pump and go.

can kind of do it to a point on the 60L - but even then you need a decent gust period to capitalise.
problems occur when winds are variable, gusty - especially if on a long exploratory down winders in isolated spots. It gets scary as hell.


As you need to go from a stink bug to stand then pump then I don't think a longer board will give you much improvement. It's not the most limiting factor.

age is another factor as well lol.

Okay, I've just got home from Friday Happy Hour & being suitably primed I'm ready to play devil's advocate on this subject. This is aimed towards a light weather foiler. I'm the first to say I'm only an 18 month veteran of winging but many years at the pointy end of dinghy/ yacht tech.

Ignoring everything you know about boards and the various iterations of board sports over the last 20(+?) years, if you went to a outside-the-box-thinking naval architect and said: "I have X power from the wing and I need the board to go Y knots before the hydrofoils start providing lift, what can you design me?" They would design a super skinny, low drag laminar flow torpedo like hull with just enough buoyancy to float you.

You would then say "but once I'm foiling I need very small swing weight" so they would then design the Centre of Gravity point just a bit in front of the Centre of Lift of the foil so you had a bit of feel to play with but the stern would balance most of the bow.

Then you say "but I still like my feet in this configuration" so they would build a little platform that is above the water when slogging but still lets you stand in a normal stance.

Hmmm, could be a nice design exercise. I seem to remember a kite race craft a little similar to this but couldn't find a pic.

C'mon, burn me...

I,m 94kg right now, used to be 102 and riding a AK5.8x 90l board. That board is awesome in everything from 6m lightwind to 3m overpowered.
I,m switching to a Appletree Slivce V2 60l and that is in our short period chaos windchop/waves of waist+ high a rodeo-ride to get on in a sitting position where I can pull the wing above my head. One I got the wing above my head everything is fine and I get in the foil as well. For me the biggest problem for me isnt the weight but the fact that the F#cker is 4.9 short and knowing what I know know I would deff opt for a slightly taller board. Not because of the glide to get on the foil, but for the extra stability when starting.

I,m to stubborn to sell the board and get a longer board but after the last sess was a 40min of frustrating and swearing ending in a swim and walk of shame I was serious considering to drive over it, drive home with it behind my car and burn what was left of it.
Luckily I switched to the 90l and everything was fine and calmed me down a bit so no boards are actually harmed (yet).

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Foilalot said..
Interesting video that includes a discussion of different board lengths as well as excellent stink bug tutorial!

This is a great vid by a dry talented guy.
off topic, but I know this location and it's quite sheltered. when I go out it's usually big and lumpy and I can't imagine using such a short board.
That's where I think the longer board will benefit, get a bit of board speed up in difficult sea states. or am I just rubbish and need a lot more skill ;)

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Jeroensurf said..
For me the biggest problem for me isnt the weight but the fact that the F#cker is 4.9 short and knowing what I know know I would deff opt for a slightly taller board. Not because of the glide to get on the foil, but for the extra stability when starting.

stick with it man, its an absolute joy to ride a short board in waves. I ride a 4'7 and don't think i could go back to a bigger board, but my first session was a couple of hours of nosediving or being launched off the back while hurling a lot of abuse at an inanimate object and some choice words for mother nature (and her mother)

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CH3MTR4IL5 said..

Jeroensurf said..
For me the biggest problem for me isnt the weight but the fact that the F#cker is 4.9 short and knowing what I know know I would deff opt for a slightly taller board. Not because of the glide to get on the foil, but for the extra stability when starting.

stick with it man, its an absolute joy to ride a short board in waves. I ride a 4'7 and don't think i could go back to a bigger board, but my first session was a couple of hours of nosediving or being launched off the back while hurling a lot of abuse at an inanimate object and some choice words for mother nature (and her mother)

I haven,t burned it (yet ) :)On the serious side: I try to work my way up. start using it more often in flatter water and when the starting feels like a 2th nature I will take it into the waves. Till then I use my trusty 90l there.

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Jeroensurf said..
I,m 94kg right now, used to be 102 and riding a AK5.8x 90l board. That board is awesome in everything from 6m lightwind to 3m overpowered.
I,m switching to a Appletree Slivce V2 60l and that is in our short period chaos windchop/waves of waist+ high a rodeo-ride to get on in a sitting position where I can pull the wing above my head. One I got the wing above my head everything is fine and I get in the foil as well. For me the biggest problem for me isnt the weight but the fact that the F#cker is 4.9 short and knowing what I know know I would deff opt for a slightly taller board. Not because of the glide to get on the foil, but for the extra stability when starting.

I,m to stubborn to sell the board and get a longer board but after the last sess was a 40min of frustrating and swearing ending in a swim and walk of shame I was serious considering to drive over it, drive home with it behind my car and burn what was left of it.
Luckily I switched to the 90l and everything was fine and calmed me down a bit so no boards are actually harmed (yet).

I had a similar day last time out. I am 95kg just me, closer to 100+ with late season suit, boots, etc. I have been using a Naish hover 110 and decided I was ready to move down some. I bought the Takoon glide 5'3" at 80l. I liked the philosophy of longer and narrower. Hadou does a very good review of the board and does warn about a decrease in lateral stability while starting. I was out on a 30+knot day with really big lake swell and chop. I did not do well. I got rolled off time and time again. Granted the technique is new to me and I am still progressing but I was so frustrated. I came in and grabbed the hover and had some fun but it left me depressed for two days. So new goals; keep practicing and get down to 175lbs.
As an aside I'm really impressed with the board. I had to do some repairs to the hover and I was kind of underwhelmed by the construction. Blasphemy, I know, but eps foam is garbage. This Takoon stuff isn't a sponge for water or air pressure. Vents are dumb and damage occurs in the water.
In a nutshell I like the board concept and construction, but I'm a fat and unathletic sailor/surfer who doesn't deserve such a fine piece of equipment.

Feeling all ya'lls pain making a transition to shorter,. I can see the merits of a longer board for flat water light wind, but in surf I think there's huge benefits of short. At <20x in winging, I weigh 95kg, learned on a 5-7 95L Naish. Am now 2 sessions in on a 4-10 90L Appletree Jazz. Volume is zero issue, it taxis well off foil, lateral stability solid... it is however taking some adaptation getting going as it is way more sensitive with pitch in chop. That said- its already feeling doable and the benefits with low swing weight- how nimble it is once on foil are immense. We've all been there before- paid our dues.... feels daunting to impossible at first... to maybe possible... then something suddenly clicks and the struggle is but a memory. Using this past experience to push through the adjustment. Unfortunately I'm stuck thinking about it as there's been zero wind going on a week now.

Feeling all ya'lls pain making a transition to shorter,. I can see the merits of a longer board for flat water light wind, but in surf I think there's huge benefits of short. At <20x in winging, I weigh 95kg, learned on a 5-7 95L Naish. Am now 2 sessions in on a 4-10 90L Appletree Jazz. Volume is zero issue, it taxis well off foil, lateral stability solid...once standing, due to volume distribution and bottom shape- it pumps to foil noticeably better than the longer, 5L less Naish. It is however, taking some adaptation getting to my feet as it is way more sensitive with pitch in chop. But- it's already doable, feel myself adjusting and the benefits with low swing weight- how nimble it is once on foil are immense. We've all been there before- paid our dues.... feels daunting to impossible at first... to maybe possible... then something suddenly clicks and the struggle is but a memory. I'm drawing on this this past experience to push through the adjustment period. Unfortunately I'm stuck thinking about it as there's been zero wind going on a week now.

I have a 90l 5 2 which is 20l below my weight with full wettie etc. If there is wind it is great. If the wind is ordinary and the current against you I am swimming. I have had some very frustrating sessions this spring. Changed to a much bigger super light board and everything is easy even in 8 to 10 knots. Foiling performance was not compromised that much due to a forward mast position and the super light 6 5 125l board at 6kg. Floating around already standing and lifting off with the slightest of gusts made light wind a pleasure.
My plan is to get a slightly longer board 5 4 105l which is very light, hope it is a good compromise.
I am a bit skeptical about super short boards improving my foiling as I have towed a fair bit on 4-foot boards and I do not suddenly become amazingly better. Bit like the surfing and windsurfing trend of smaller is better, when in fact it made everything harder. Maybe being awfully close to 60 affects my judgement.

Seen several manufactures and reviews saying longer boards take off earlier. Searched a bit and seems when not flying board displaces water and increases speed until the bow wave has crest at bow and trough at tail so board is trying to climb a hill of water. The difference in this 'hull speed' between a 60" and 65" board is only 0.1knot, but if the 65" is same volume and narrower it pierces the bow wave and any chop easier, so easier to build up speed the get lift off foil.

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patronus said..
Seen several manufactures and reviews saying longer boards take off earlier. Searched a bit and seems when not flying board displaces water and increases speed until the bow wave has crest at bow and trough at tail so board is trying to climb a hill of water. The difference in this 'hull speed' between a 60" and 65" board is only 0.1knot, but if the 65" is same volume and narrower it pierces the bow wave and any chop easier, so easier to build up speed the get lift off foil.

Conventional displacement hull theory doesn't really apply to very narrow hulls, which is why catamarans can exceed their theoretical displacement hull speed limits. In your example the difference between the 60" and 65" board is that for a fixed volume and depth underwater, the longer board can be narrower, which also reduces the wave drag. The limit is going to be stability, the boards that have the least resistance are going to be the hardest to balance on.

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hilly said..
I have a 90l 5 2 which is 20l below my weight with full wettie etc. If there is wind it is great. If the wind is ordinary and the current against you I am swimming. I have had some very frustrating sessions this spring. Changed to a much bigger super light board and everything is easy even in 8 to 10 knots. Foiling performance was not compromised that much due to a forward mast position and the super light 6 5 125l board at 6kg. Floating around already standing and lifting off with the slightest of gusts made light wind a pleasure.
My plan is to get a slightly longer board 5 4 105l which is very light, hope it is a good compromise.
I am a bit skeptical about super short boards improving my foiling as I have towed a fair bit on 4-foot boards and I do not suddenly become amazingly better. Bit like the surfing and windsurfing trend of smaller is better, when in fact it made everything harder. Maybe being awfully close to 60 affects my judgement.

Thanks for posting about personal experience with 4-foot to 6ft 5 boards, and reporting that your impression does not match the prevailing sentiment. While I do not doubt that ultra-short and small boards let exceptional athletes in perfect conditions carve even more radically, the majority of wingers has more average skills, and usually more average conditions. We have to deal with a huge wind drop in almost every session at our local spot, and it is often unpredictable if the wind will pick backup after 5 minutes, an hour, or not at all. I'm learning winging on a 7 ft 5, 140 l board that some have declared to be "not suited for winging". But I'm often on the foil more than others with similar experience on "proper" wing boards, and fall less in jibe attempts. And every time the wind drops, I'm floating back to shore easily. As for the dreaded "swing weight", the board should be an absolute monster, since it is heavy. But it still turns at least as quickly as I want it to.

As you say, we have seen the effect of "smaller is better" in windsurfing. At most places, the net effect was a reduction in fun, since everyone with the cool, fashionable tiny boards ended up standing on shore "waiting for the wind". Winging is a bit different, since the same board may be regarded as huge for someone coming from kiting, and as tiny for someone coming from windsurfing. But with "shorter and smaller is better" being the dominant opinion, a strong confirmation bias comes into play. I'll be looking for a smaller and shorter board eventually, but even then, the ease of getting going and getting back to shore when the wind drops will be much more important to me than slightly more radical turns.

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boardsurfr said..

hilly said..
I have a 90l 5 2 which is 20l below my weight with full wettie etc. If there is wind it is great. If the wind is ordinary and the current against you I am swimming. I have had some very frustrating sessions this spring. Changed to a much bigger super light board and everything is easy even in 8 to 10 knots. Foiling performance was not compromised that much due to a forward mast position and the super light 6 5 125l board at 6kg. Floating around already standing and lifting off with the slightest of gusts made light wind a pleasure.
My plan is to get a slightly longer board 5 4 105l which is very light, hope it is a good compromise.
I am a bit skeptical about super short boards improving my foiling as I have towed a fair bit on 4-foot boards and I do not suddenly become amazingly better. Bit like the surfing and windsurfing trend of smaller is better, when in fact it made everything harder. Maybe being awfully close to 60 affects my judgement.

Thanks for posting about personal experience with 4-foot to 6ft 5 boards, and reporting that your impression does not match the prevailing sentiment. While I do not doubt that ultra-short and small boards let exceptional athletes in perfect conditions carve even more radically, the majority of wingers has more average skills, and usually more average conditions. We have to deal with a huge wind drop in almost every session at our local spot, and it is often unpredictable if the wind will pick backup after 5 minutes, an hour, or not at all. I'm learning winging on a 7 ft 5, 140 l board that some have declared to be "not suited for winging". But I'm often on the foil more than others with similar experience on "proper" wing boards, and fall less in jibe attempts. And every time the wind drops, I'm floating back to shore easily. As for the dreaded "swing weight", the board should be an absolute monster, since it is heavy. But it still turns at least as quickly as I want it to.

As you say, we have seen the effect of "smaller is better" in windsurfing. At most places, the net effect was a reduction in fun, since everyone with the cool, fashionable tiny boards ended up standing on shore "waiting for the wind". Winging is a bit different, since the same board may be regarded as huge for someone coming from kiting, and as tiny for someone coming from windsurfing. But with "shorter and smaller is better" being the dominant opinion, a strong confirmation bias comes into play. I'll be looking for a smaller and shorter board eventually, but even then, the ease of getting going and getting back to shore when the wind drops will be much more important to me than slightly more radical turns.

I learned on a 7'4" Hypernut, definitely a lot harder to ride toe-side but far more forgiving for learning. I'm tempted to try it in float and ride waves since it's just so easy to slog around.

I tried today in normall 5m weather on the local lake the KT5.4x56l.For my 94kg that is very small. Before I was using my AK5.8x90l and I would never ever try my 60l Appletree in such relative light conditions..but the KT was no problem at all. The extra length makes it a LOT more stable under water and easier to balance out.With my 60l 4.9 Slice V2 it is an continuous battle to stay on it/keep it under me and getting started, the extra length has a waay bigger impact as I expected. Sub-planing/slogging as well, a LOT easier as with my shorter 4.9 .Once flying the board felt very good, but there you notice that the shorter 4.9 feels more alive/less swingweight....when I get it on the foil.
Overall the KT gave me a lot think over and serious considering selling my slice V2 and get the longer KT

what is your technique for starting?

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Jeroensurf said..
I tried today in normall 5m weather on the local lake the KT5.4x56l.For my 94kg that is very small. Before I was using my AK5.8x90l and I would never ever try my 60l Appletree in such relative light conditions..but the KT was no problem at all. The extra length makes it a LOT more stable under water and easier to balance out.With my 60l 4.9 Slice V2 it is an continuous battle to stay on it/keep it under me and getting started, the extra length has a waay bigger impact as I expected. Sub-planing/slogging as well, a LOT easier as with my shorter 4.9 .Once flying the board felt very good, but there you notice that the shorter 4.9 feels more alive/less swingweight....when I get it on the foil.
Overall the KT gave me a lot think over and serious considering selling my slice V2 and get the longer KT

So I'm 105kgs, and had a kt 5'4 56L and agree with what you said, but I found the extra swing weight annoying in high wind and thought to myself if I am going to go to the effort of using a semi sinker I might as well enjoy a short board.

I ordered a custom amos high flyer 4'10 x 22 x 4 x 56L. Same volume as the KT, with a little more difficulty to start, and takes time to dial in, I do a normal knee start wing over head, which is easy if constant wind, when there's big chop I point board downwind so easier to get front leg up.

The 4L less will be making a difference in control and even if you went to a KT 5' 50L it will be just as easy to control due to the less volume, and if strong wind you won't really notice the less volume. The rule is 50-60% of body weight for semi sinker, any more and the board will be corky and throw you off all the time.

I also think that in wind strong enough to use a semi sinker, any brand board will do.

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Jeroensurf said..
I,m 94kg right now, used to be 102 and riding a AK5.8x 90l board. That board is awesome in everything from 6m lightwind to 3m overpowered.
I,m switching to a Appletree Slivce V2 60l and that is in our short period chaos windchop/waves of waist+ high a rodeo-ride to get on in a sitting position where I can pull the wing above my head. One I got the wing above my head everything is fine and I get in the foil as well. For me the biggest problem for me isnt the weight but the fact that the F#cker is 4.9 short and knowing what I know know I would deff opt for a slightly taller board. Not because of the glide to get on the foil, but for the extra stability when starting.

I,m to stubborn to sell the board and get a longer board but after the last sess was a 40min of frustrating and swearing ending in a swim and walk of shame I was serious considering to drive over it, drive home with it behind my car and burn what was left of it.
Luckily I switched to the 90l and everything was fine and calmed me down a bit so no boards are actually harmed (yet).

LOL Classic and yes I agree with you .

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Frankieboy said..
what is your technique for starting?

I tried knee and stinkbug, but in very short period (rather meters between the waves instead of seconds) and waisthigh chop both didnt work. Not soo supple is an understatement for me so a sitting start doesnt,t work for me.
I have put my board online for Sale, If i get a decent price for it, I change to the Longer KT, If not I keep anoying myself with the 4.9 hoping that at some point I get the grip of it.

@North Kiter, I hear what you are saying about the swingweight, and noticed the diff as well, but I rather have a bit more swingweight as swimtime

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Jeroensurf said..

Frankieboy said..
what is your technique for starting?

I tried knee and stinkbug, but in very short period (rather meters between the waves instead of seconds) and waisthigh chop both didnt work. Not soo supple is an understatement for me so a sitting start doesnt,t work for me.
I have put my board online for Sale, If i get a decent price for it, I change to the Longer KT, If not I keep anoying myself with the 4.9 hoping that at some point I get the grip of it.

Hi @Jeroensurf. I had the 5'4'' KT (56 L) for a while and despite my old knees for some reason this slightly longer board made the sitting start easy. With my other shorter boards I haven't felt the same. Just in the very beginning of this clip. I am placing one foot just in front of the foot strap, and the wind needs to be right of course. When it's too quiet it usually did not work for me. Nothing much else to see in this video, as it's been made just a bit more than 1 month after I started wing foiling. Oh, and the pumping with this board was not too bad. At 00:37 there is an example. I was still on a "beginner" foil with a huge stabiliser (Sabfoil s483) there which made the pumping much more difficult for my weight than now with the smaller stabilisers.