I've been mesmerized recently watching Johnny Heineken's amazing skills, and can't help noticing his very wide stance. This seems to conflict with all the instructional videos I watch which recommend trying to move your feet closer together. What's up with Johnny? Is he onto something we should all try to emulate? Is it different gear he's on? Or are his skills so advanced that only he has the ability to ride this way? Is he better able to lever that board with that stance? It doesn't seem to impact his foot switch.

Definitely emulate his wing control, balance, and commitment to time on the water working on new stuff. His stance may not be ideal, but it works for him.

From my experience the faster you go the wider your stance needs to become to maintain control of the foil, narrow stance is great for pumping And learning as it will naturally even out the foot pressure and make your legs tire and similar rates, just my thoughts idk if anyone else has experiences the same

He also does something interesting where he sticks his hips forward on upwind legs. Definitely innovating

Looks like a race kite foiling stance. To me the perk is the ability to move the weight forward and wing back by twisting at the hips to gain better upwind ability

I get told a lot I have a narrow stance and so I consciously widen when I think about it. I also ride efoils with some pro guys and their stance is also very wide that's probably to do with the extra weight of the battery when they depower. Downwinding I've also started to widen my stance which is good it lets you catch the foil when it depowers or repowers avoiding breach's and stalls plus I seem to able to put more pressure on the foil reaching , which is probably why Johnny and the boys above are doing it. It's quiet easy to kill a HA foil with too much front foot pressure on a reach so by putting more backfoot pressure at the same time a bit behind the mast help keep it's trim . That's my theory anyway This definitely works on the new Axis PRO ART's , I was playing around with it yesterday I going to try the hip forward as well that looks good.

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oliverp said..
From my experience the faster you go the wider your stance needs to become to maintain control of the foil, narrow stance is great for pumping And learning as it will naturally even out the foot pressure and make your legs tire and similar rates, just my thoughts idk if anyone else has experiences the same

Same here, wider stance helps control the pitchiness of smaller foils going fast. With bigger liftier wave focused foils my back foot is usually in front on the rear strap in a narrower stance, easier to control the lift in the drops and in the top turns. I expect Johnny is running a pretty small and fast foil most of the time.

It could be that he's just naturally more comfortable with a wide stance. I've always been a narrow stance kind of person and always had straps set as close as I could get them.

I think at the mechanical level the wide stance smooths out the pitch inputs as you ride. A narrow stance means a small input has a large effect so the foil is pitching up and down as you ride. Those up pitch moments can cause a bit of porpoising and really slow you down.

As has been said, with wide stance you can move your rear foot further back and that lets you put more power into the foil and results in greater speed.

After a downwind run I often lock in the wing and widen my stance the speed upwind feels much higher ... until I get out of whack and crash.

I'm not sure about the hips forward stance. You see that in all the pictures of kite racers. The only time I have used that is kite foiling and having my straps set out of balance for the foil so I have to unnaturally pressure the front to keep the foil down. It's really uncomfortable.

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Foilmate said..
Looks like a race kite foiling stance. To me the perk is the ability to move the weight forward and wing back by twisting at the hips to gain better upwind ability

I agree.
Not too long ago he was the best kite foil racer on the planet. It's not surprising all that muscle memory influences his winging.

On the flip slide, alot of the sup pros bring over a really narrow and casual stance when riding swell with a wing and foil.

The top guys seem to be able to make anything work, and lean on the amazing skills they already have from other sports.

I think his stance looks very similar to the kitefoil racers as Foilmate said, which is understandable considering his background.

Other observations:
- He is banking his board much more than others, again similar to kitefoil racers.
- His backfoot placement changes and sometimes very close to winward side of the board when he is going realy fast and upwind.
- From his footchanges, I think he rides with a significant frontfoot lift

Wide stance for control at speed, narrow stance for pumping. He was a pro wing/kite racer so I think it is normal for him to stand like that.

In windfoiling, longer fuselages and smaller stabs are used for pitch stability and speed. Why is this not popular in winging when focusing only on speed?

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Stretchy said..
In windfoiling, longer fuselages and smaller stabs are used for pitch stability and speed. Why is this not popular in winging when focusing only on speed?

It is. Most Mike's Lab foils have longer fuselages and smaller tails than others. And they are incredible pitch stable.

...Although if you look at the pics in this thread;
www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Wing-Foiling/Wind-Wings/First-Aussie-to-break-30kn-legitimately-?page=1#22
Most ML tail wings 'appear' larger in surface area than average with fuse lengths roughly average to my eye. The fuse diameter and mast are very low drag features. I always thought a wider stance made it harder for me to fine tune pitch as it takes less force for more input. My stance keeps getting narrower every year. Maybe I just drink too much coffee

Clearly there's more to pitch stability than just fuse length. I switched with a friend the other day and rode her Axis 999 / 350P ultrashort fuse and felt like I could have held a square dance on deck and had little impact on pitch or roll. Compared to my Lift 150X / 20 carve + extender setup it was like a truck vs a Ferrari The Axis glide was fantastic and it would turn and pump fine but took remarkably more input to achieve a similar result.

So the axis 999 more stable-locked in than the lift 150?

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heysup said..
So the axis 999 more stable-locked in than the lift 150?

There's a significant difference. Just think about turning the 150X / 20 carve combo and you're already halfway through the turn by comparison (The 20 carve is about the size of an Axis 275P). I've ridden the Uni 140 Progression as well and it's even 'turnier' than the lift setup. I'm sure an 'advance' fuse would help the Axis in the roll initiation dept. Didn't hate it (got used to it in five minutes) but was quite surprised.

Doesn't appear getting the tip out on a ML 540 is any problem for Ken Adgate;
www.instagram.com/ken_adgate/?img_index=6

www.instagram.com/p/Cwfyh_2vIU9/

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Thatspec said..

heysup said..
So the axis 999 more stable-locked in than the lift 150?

There's a significant difference. Just think about turning the 150X / 20 carve combo and you're already halfway through the turn by comparison (The 20 carve is about the size of an Axis 275P). I've ridden the Uni 140 Progression as well and it's even 'turnier' than the lift setup. I'm sure an 'advance' fuse would help the Axis in the roll initiation dept. Didn't hate it (got used to it in five minutes) but was quite surprised.

This makes me feel better that I struggle to switch feet on the 140 progression. Any suggestions for managing it with a turnier setup? I generally just ride toeside but thought I should probably get around to learning it

I recently bought some ML foils (800/1100/1150) and they have not much front foot pressure.
If you want to go fast you need to have the back foot quite at the back and you need to push on it to accelerate.
These foils are incredibely fast and stable but I struggle switching feet as I am a heavy guy and the wide stance doens't help

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cornwallis said..


This makes me feel better that I struggle to switch feet on the 140 progression. Any suggestions for managing it with a turnier setup? I generally just ride toeside but thought I should probably get around to learning it

If it's an option, a longer fuse or larger tail always helps. Otherwise just repetition. I'll always be less comfortable riding goofy foot but sometimes force myself to ride toe side goofy just to untwist my body

Then there's always Kainani. It's kitefoiling but the same concepts apply and at worst she'll make you smile;

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Thatspec said..

cornwallis said..


This makes me feel better that I struggle to switch feet on the 140 progression. Any suggestions for managing it with a turnier setup? I generally just ride toeside but thought I should probably get around to learning it

If it's an option, a longer fuse or larger tail always helps. Otherwise just repetition. I'll always be less comfortable riding goofy foot but sometimes force myself to ride toe side goofy just to untwist my body

Then there's always Kainani. It's kitefoiling but the same concepts apply and at worst she'll make you smile;

Ok and maybe more shimand a slower tail. I've gotten used to riding fast loose tails from prone.

That video is amazing something it made me think of is to ride very squared up with front foot back and back foot forward, and then switch them to a similar stance on the opposite side. Opposed to the in-line switch which means you don't have the roll stability.

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cornwallis said..

Thatspec said..

cornwallis said..


This makes me feel better that I struggle to switch feet on the 140 progression. Any suggestions for managing it with a turnier setup? I generally just ride toeside but thought I should probably get around to learning it

If it's an option, a longer fuse or larger tail always helps. Otherwise just repetition. I'll always be less comfortable riding goofy foot but sometimes force myself to ride toe side goofy just to untwist my body

Then there's always Kainani. It's kitefoiling but the same concepts apply and at worst she'll make you smile;

Ok and maybe more shimand a slower tail. I've gotten used to riding fast loose tails from prone.

That video is amazing something it made me think of is to ride very squared up with front foot back and back foot forward, and then switch them to a similar stance on the opposite side. Opposed to the in-line switch which means you don't have the roll stability.

Yeah, the new narrower boards also force a less offset stance and I don't miss it. Possibly because of the deck concave and overall less thickness. Interestingly though the board Johnny rides in the original video doesn't appear to be particularly narrow. Once you get down under 22" you don't need the 96cm mast anymore for the same bank angle.

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cornwallis said..

Thatspec said..

heysup said..
So the axis 999 more stable-locked in than the lift 150?

There's a significant difference. Just think about turning the 150X / 20 carve combo and you're already halfway through the turn by comparison (The 20 carve is about the size of an Axis 275P). I've ridden the Uni 140 Progression as well and it's even 'turnier' than the lift setup. I'm sure an 'advance' fuse would help the Axis in the roll initiation dept. Didn't hate it (got used to it in five minutes) but was quite surprised.

This makes me feel better that I struggle to switch feet on the 140 progression. Any suggestions for managing it with a turnier setup? I generally just ride toeside but thought I should probably get around to learning it

@cornwallis What tail are you pairing with the Progression 140? I have been riding mine with the KD Marlin 14" (-0.5 shim) and I find that it is generally pretty stable for footswaps. I have the G10 Unifoil 13" tails but haven't tried them for winging. I imagine that they'd help with turning but the KD seems to be working.

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gneve said..

cornwallis said..

Thatspec said..

heysup said..
So the axis 999 more stable-locked in than the lift 150?

There's a significant difference. Just think about turning the 150X / 20 carve combo and you're already halfway through the turn by comparison (The 20 carve is about the size of an Axis 275P). I've ridden the Uni 140 Progression as well and it's even 'turnier' than the lift setup. I'm sure an 'advance' fuse would help the Axis in the roll initiation dept. Didn't hate it (got used to it in five minutes) but was quite surprised.

This makes me feel better that I struggle to switch feet on the 140 progression. Any suggestions for managing it with a turnier setup? I generally just ride toeside but thought I should probably get around to learning it

@cornwallis What tail are you pairing with the Progression 140? I have been riding mine with the KD Marlin 14" (-0.5 shim) and I find that it is generally pretty stable for footswaps. I have the G10 Unifoil 13" tails but haven't tried them for winging. I imagine that they'd help with turning but the KD seems to be working.

Funnily enough the 14" Marlin with 0 shim. It is definitely my favourite tail for prone and winging, with the Takuma 178 a nice backup for poor conditions. I think I'm just not that stable switch and arriving switch I'm way off balance. I have not really tried very many times, probably 10 on each side and not made that many, I was more curious to hear the 999 described as so much more stable.

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cornwallis said..

Funnily enough the 14" Marlin with 0 shim. It is definitely my favourite tail for prone and winging, with the Takuma 178 a nice backup for poor conditions. I think I'm just not that stable switch and arriving switch I'm way off balance. I have not really tried very many times, probably 10 on each side and not made that many, I was more curious to hear the 999 described as so much more stable.

"Stable" just relative to what I've been riding. I'd put that particular Axis setup at about the the same pitch stability as my other setup, GoFoil RS850ha / 14 Marlin though the 999 is still stiffer in roll (Has a longer wingspan). Interestingly the GF setup fuse length is significantly longer than either of the Lift or Axis setups.

Understood. I've ridden the 899 and 1099 and especially with 1099 felt the roll to be very slow, so I can imagine paired with a long tail it might be super stable, and could see how the 999 could be just "stable" relative to what I'm used to

This is an bit old post, but I think it is a very good question. Both Heineken and Adgate have wide stance, and does wingfoil in a very good looking way.
As a fan of their style, especially the Adgate tack, I have been trying out the wide stance. But have just felt more comfortable with the feet more together. Riding with only the front footstraps, and the rear foot usually in front of where the rear strap would be.

Then I just recently changed the board, and went from a 95 cm plate mount mast to a 101 cm deep tuttle. But same F4 fuselage/wing.
(Wahoo 700 and Hoki 1000)
And suddenly I had a wider stance. Not sure if it is "Heineken wide", but for sure much wider than before. And I felt more comfortable going fast, went better upwind, and could carve much harder in turns. And had a few heelside taks with the 700 where I came laughing out.

After, I compared the rake of the foil on new and old board. And actually, the deck of the board on the old one was parallel to the fuselage. So 0 degree. But the new one was 4.5 degree! And I think this makes the difference. Why and how? I cannot explain, I can only say there is a different feel and a big improvement.

Also listening to the Ken Adgate episode on The Generic Foiling podcast, for the second time, yesterday, a lot of what he says now makes sense to me. And I think they also have more rake than many of the boards/foils on the market with plate mount.

Same here

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BirkelandNOR150 said..
After, I compared the rake of the foil on new and old board. And actually, the deck of the board on the old one was parallel to the fuselage. So 0 degree. But the new one was 4.5 degree!

Does the 4.5 degree angle put the nose of the board higher or lower, relative to the front wing?

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boardsurfr said..

BirkelandNOR150 said..
After, I compared the rake of the foil on new and old board. And actually, the deck of the board on the old one was parallel to the fuselage. So 0 degree. But the new one was 4.5 degree!

Does the 4.5 degree angle put the nose of the board higher or lower, relative to the front wing?

Higher up relative to the front wing.
Board to the right have 4.5 degree angle, board to the left have 0 degree. Me in both cases. How it looks different, is how I feel different.