Hi

After some research (thanks for all the reading & help on this forum !) I have decided to invest in Wing/Sup foil rather than renew my windsurf foil gear for light winds.

I have also decided to get dedicated wing/Sup foil board rather than a convertible board that does Windfoil, sup, wing etc as i am not convinced they will work great in each individual discipline.

So - crunch time - where would you spend your Cash?

My "short list" comprises the following:
- Fanatic 6'7 125 liter sup (im 90kg) + Aero 2000 foil (i hear they are bringing out bigger dedicated wing boards later this year ie >5'4 but i dont want to wait to the autumn, and the SUP foiling option could be useful)
- Naish Hover/SUP board 125 liter (im 90kg) + Naish 2000 jet foil. What are the Naish foils like? i have heard the 2021 mast/base is fused so that make it less interchangeable? And they have lost the abracadabra fitting for 2021? I also see the 2021 boards have lost their square nose...does that make it more challenging size for size? (Naish website will be updated 15th July from a mail i got this AM - so will learn more in 24 hrs i guess).
- Ozone Wasp 6m or Duotone 6m...my 30yr windsurfing background would lend me to the boomed Echo...but i see in the vids the Wasp definately looks like it flies on the wave easier (ie left trailing behind). This seems like a marmite thing ie some love boom and some prefer handles (i wonder if there is a copyright license issue here and only Duotone have the boom option).
- Axis 1020/440 stab foil - this seems like the best "independent" foil for the buck
- Or any combination of the above eg Fanatic 6'7 + Wasp + axis foil (my only concern with this approach is are they "compatible" and would it be obvious where to place the axis foil in the fanatic tracks to start off with etc...)

(i would throw Gong into the mix but i cant get these for mths)

Any strong recommendations based on my shortlist, if you were starting again? (at risk of everyone simply recommending their latest set-up, hehe)

I guess the real world answer is "stop talking and start doing it...and form your own opinions"...but I havent seen any in the flesh & never seen a wing on the water either, so im doing all this remotely to try and get a package that will be ideal to learn but also i can progress and potentially upgrade/modular. Oh and its not cheap right!

Hope you dont mind all the daft questions (again).
Northy

If only we all had a crystal ball hey ;-) I don't mean to be negative but most peoples opinions won't help you because they will be biased towards their own gear ("mine is best"), and even those who can be objective will have their own preferences based on their riding style and conditions. The only way to really know if any gear suits you is to use it. We all buy the odd bit of kit that we wish we hadn't and trade it in asap, it's part of the learning process.
Out of those 2 boards I believe the Naish is wider than the Fanatic - width is more important than volume when considering stability. If your local conditions are choppy/mushy then stability is going to be important, otherwise they are much of a muchness.
If you're a beginner you'll want a very low aspect foil. If you want to use it in ultra light winds you'll need the biggest foil there is. There are foils at 2400 that would be better than 2000 for light winds.
Whether to get the Wasp or the Duotone (get the Echo not the v1) is totally up to you because its all about personal preference, and you won't really know which one you prefer for sure until you try them both. If you're going to be riding waves predominantly then maybe the wasp is the better option as it luffs marginally better than the Echo, but having said that the Echo is an excellent wing and the boom has definitely got it's advantages in transitions (the echo is much better than the v1 in every respect). The Echo has windows and the wasp doesn't if that's a consideration for you. Have you got the option of an f-one swing wing? They (arguably) luff the best out of all wings, are (possibly) the lightest wing out there, are super stable, easy to handle, great power, and are very good at everything. Personally I rate the f-one as the best wing out there, closely followed by the wasp and the Duotone Echo, but I have bought Duotone Echo's because for me the boom is the most important factor, but that won't help you at all ;-)

All depends what you value and will do. For me weight, convenience and waves were important. So I have Armstrong foil, Smik board and wings. Light weight really strong and surf really well. lots of options out there just make sure they line up with your priorities.

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northy1 said..
H
- Naish Hover/SUP board 125 liter (im 90kg) + Naish 2000 jet foil. What are the Naish foils like? i have heard the 2021 mast/base is fused so that make it less interchangeable? And they have lost the abracadabra fitting for 2021? I also see the 2021 boards have lost their square nose...does that make it more challenging size for size? (Naish website will be updated 15th July from a mail i got this AM - so will learn more in 24 hrs i guess).
Hope you dont mind all the daft questions (again).
Northy

Glad to hear a update is coming. Iv'e seen the 2021 Abracadabra and they said it will be available, but the bottom half is built in to the mast.

So i assume the top plate piece will be offered separately, so you don't have to pay for extra parts that you don't need when you buy a extra mast. Nice connection option but they certainly charge a premium for it . I guess we will find out soon.

I wouldn't stress too much over your decision, I reckon you will be happy with any of those options.

I myself at just under 90kgs have 3.5 and 5mtr F-One wings, 6'8" and 5'10 ONE boards and few different Axis foils (1020 and 440 would be a fantastic starter for sure)

I'm stoked with my set up but I'm sure I would be stoked with just about any combination of brands of wings, foils or boards, just get on board, you'll love it.

Main thing is to commit, i dithered for 6 months before buying gear. Commit, leave all your other gear in the garage and wing solidly. Board about 30L more than ur weight, width over length, foils over 2000cm2 and one around 1500cm2, get a mast 80-85cm as it gives u more time to adjust pitch and also stabilizes u more when floating. Wings to start 6 and 4.5m and 3.5 m when ur flying. Don't worry about the boom, handles are easy. Mike

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Fishdude said..

northy1 said..
H
- Naish Hover/SUP board 125 liter (im 90kg) + Naish 2000 jet foil. What are the Naish foils like? i have heard the 2021 mast/base is fused so that make it less interchangeable? And they have lost the abracadabra fitting for 2021? I also see the 2021 boards have lost their square nose...does that make it more challenging size for size? (Naish website will be updated 15th July from a mail i got this AM - so will learn more in 24 hrs i guess).
Hope you dont mind all the daft questions (again).
Northy

Glad to hear a update is coming. Iv'e seen the 2021 Abracadabra and they said it will be available, but the bottom half is built in to the mast.

So i assume the top plate piece will be offered separately, so you don't have to pay for extra parts that you don't need when you buy a extra mast. Nice connection option but they certainly charge a premium for it . I guess we will find out soon.

Just checked the web site there up there now,

Looks like the Abracadadra is only in the 75cm :( The price for an extra mast seems a is bit steep to.

If I bought one wing again I would make sure it was a bigger wing 5 - 6m. Rather be overpowered than pumping like hell for a frustrating session

Also 30 litre plus board to my weight for the board. I would go cheap as the board will seem huge quite quickly.

Also I would limit myself in number and length of sessions. I went too hard and ended up with over excercising issues.

A handle the bottom of the board would be great I think.

I would just issue a general warning.

Do not buy gear too advanced for your level.

We see more and more people praising the new advanced foil and wings model coming out. But beginners are more and more lured by these raving reviews, not realizing that these people have years and hundreds of hours of foiling experience, and that foiling is quite technical.

So do not spend too much time trying to get the perfect gear on your first try. Aim for the easiest ones (in doubt, go big), and be on the water as much as possible. Better gear will happen all the time, and used gear resells well anyways.

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Fishdude said..

Fishdude said..

northy1 said..
H
- Naish Hover/SUP board 125 liter (im 90kg) + Naish 2000 jet foil. What are the Naish foils like? i have heard the 2021 mast/base is fused so that make it less interchangeable? And they have lost the abracadabra fitting for 2021? I also see the 2021 boards have lost their square nose...does that make it more challenging size for size? (Naish website will be updated 15th July from a mail i got this AM - so will learn more in 24 hrs i guess).
Hope you dont mind all the daft questions (again).
Northy

Glad to hear a update is coming. Iv'e seen the 2021 Abracadabra and they said it will be available, but the bottom half is built in to the mast.

So i assume the top plate piece will be offered separately, so you don't have to pay for extra parts that you don't need when you buy a extra mast. Nice connection option but they certainly charge a premium for it . I guess we will find out soon.

Just checked the web site there up there now,

Looks like the Abracadadra is only in the 75cm :( The price for an extra mast seems a is bit steep to.

Abracadabra wasn't really that good. I've changed from jet abracadabra 70cm to s25 75cm no abracadabra, way better.
Was a fair bit of play in abracadabra system even with shims .
New Naish S25 foil setup is a lot better than jet

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northy1 said..

- Naish Hover/SUP board 125 liter (im 90kg) + Naish 2000 jet foil. What are the Naish foils like? i have heard the 2021 mast/base is fused so that make it less interchangeable? And they have lost the abracadabra fitting for 2021? I also see the 2021 boards have lost their square nose...does that make it more challenging size for size? (Naish website will be updated 15th July from a mail i got this AM - so will learn more in 24 hrs i guess).
- Ozone Wasp 6m or Duotone 6m...my 30yr windsurfing background would lend me to the boomed Echo...but i see in the vids the Wasp definately looks like it flies on the wave easier (ie left trailing behind). This seems like a marmite thing ie some love boom and some prefer handles (i wonder if there is a copyright license issue here and only Duotone have the boom option).
- Axis 1020/440 stab foil - this seems like the best "independent" foil for the buck
- Or any combination of the above eg Fanatic 6'7 + Wasp + axis foil (my only concern with this approach is are they "compatible" and would it be obvious where to place the axis foil in the fanatic tracks to start off with etc...)

(i would throw Gong into the mix but i cant get these)

I have owned the square nose and round nose naish boards and they are excellent. Avoid the V1 ultra carbon initially because they easy to ding. The V2's are tougher.

The Naish foils are good...
The AXIS foils are good... I ride the 1020 with a combination of rear wings.

Duotones are good, had V1's and the boom was great. I wanted larger wings and moved to gong and WASP.
WASP's are good, .... I wing the 3,4,6 ...
Gong was good.

Fanatic/WASP/AXIS Combo will be terrific for you.

Just picked up a Naish Hover 110 Ultra and really impressed with such a great all round Winging & SUP surf foil board it is. With me being 90kgs, this board sits nice in the water, is stable and paddles onto the waves fine (for a 6 foot board). Been really easy Winging and have not noticed any swing weight. I have been winging with smaller boards and they have their place in constant windy days (and will end up with a small wing board down the track) but they are a lot of work in the inconsistent winter winds.
I'd definitely recommend trying the Hover Ultra 110.

Is that the new 2021 board? Did you look at the 125? What board and vol non foil surf SUP would you ride as that would help me calibrate

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northy1 said..
Is that the new 2021 board? Did you look at the 125? What board and vol non foil surf SUP would you ride as that would help me calibrate

You would get away with 125L (2020 or 2021) without any issues at your weight.

Hi Northy1,

It's the 2020 model because I didn't want to wait the extended lead time & the money I saved will end up on either 1240 or 1400 HA wing.
As my last SUP board was 6' 6" I was already used to shorter boards that sit just above water level & the 125 would have been a backwards step due to the bigger size.

In the last week I've been able to wing foil it 4 days in a row & wave foil it Saturday & Sunday. Seems to be doing what I was looking for in a board.

Get an AXIS 1010. Love my Starboard foil system but lack of wing choice sucks

Regarding the Naish foil changes....they are for the better. Everyone should follow their lead in bonding the base plate to the mast.

The mast to base plate connection on so many foils, is a huge engineering failure. Loose fitting on the most critical connection to making the whole kit stiff. So dumb. Naish is the first to solve this. You had to be lucky to find one with a tight connection. The issue was mast thickness changes as the extrusion dies wear. So you could never design the fit to be tight for every piece coming out of the factories for any brand.

If you whine about having to buy a base plate with each mast, you're being silly. You should have been shimming and pounding that connection together permanently, even with the old loose design.

Regarding the abracadabra...again the basic base plate is more rigid, no play, at the most critical connection in the kit. Adding the slotted screw holes makes it very easy and fast to mount. A win-win for everyone.

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Naish is the first to solve this..

BS on that. lots of brands have been doing this for years.

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DWF said..
Regarding the Naish foil changes....they are for the better. Everyone should follow their lead in bonding the base plate to the mast.

The mast to base plate connection on so many foils, is a huge engineering failure. Loose fitting on the most critical connection to making the whole kit stiff. So dumb. Naish is the first to solve this. You had to be lucky to find one with a tight connection. The issue was mast thickness changes as the extrusion dies wear. So you could never design the fit to be tight for every piece coming out of the factories for any brand.

If you whine about having to buy a base plate with each mast, you're being silly. You should have been shimming and pounding that connection together permanently, even with the old loose design.

Regarding the abracadabra...again the basic base plate is more rigid, no play, at the most critical connection in the kit. Adding the slotted screw holes makes it very easy and fast to mount. A win-win for everyone.

The state of the art is one piece mast and plate. Many have been doing this for years. The others including Naish are behind and still have not caught up.

Name it. Where is the one piece aluminum Mast and base pate?

Name all the so called rigid no flex or play aluminum base plates.

BTW, I don't ride Naish foils. I'm just an engineer who recognizes good engineering.

Ok you got me on "aluminum".
Regardless of the material, I agree there should be zero movement.

I'm not a shill for or wed to any brand- just want gear that works well and lasts. Have to say Axis connections at base and fuse are well engineered and rock solid. If one piece is important- there is the option of leaving it connected. Having the option of interchangeability, the ability to exchange the mast with a longer one is always good or replace a damaged base. As is the option to do the same at the fuse- go shorter longer etc.

From Fanatic...does this compare to the Naish?

MAST > BASE PLATE CONNECTION
+ Formula 1 Aluminium Fusion Technology - Made in Germany
?+ Glued AND screwed connection of mast and base?
+ Ultra rigid?
+ Highly durable?
+ Feels like one piece

Fanatic and I believe RRD use a bonded top plate.
The NP setup is really solid as well since it has extensions that fit down into the mast.

The crappy ones are Slingshot etc where the mast just bolts on flat.

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Holoholo said..
Have to say Axis connections at base and fuse are well engineered and rock solid.

Only if you get a lucky one. Many are loose and not rock solid. Axis is a brand that needs to up it's game and go bonded base plates.

I don't think RRD foils are even sold in the US, so was not aware of them being bonded. Good for them.

More need to join the bonded bandwagon.

Good wings are number one priority for me personally.

Just want to give props to those bonding the base plate....the rest need to step it up.

Nah, non bonded mast to base, soooo much cheaper to experiment with the long mast. I got the 105cm just to experiment and is so relaxing in big chop. I did bend out my base with a full speed sand bank hit. I just shimmed it with plastic milk bottle material all good again

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DWF said..

Holoholo said..
Have to say Axis connections at base and fuse are well engineered and rock solid.

Only if you get a lucky one. Many are loose and not rock solid. Axis is a brand that needs to up it's game and go bonded base plates.

I don't think RRD foils are even sold in the US, so was not aware of them being bonded. Good for them.

More need to join the bonded bandwagon.

Good wings are number one priority for me personally.

Just want to give props to those bonding the base plate....the rest need to step it up.

Just did this to my Tuttle head Gofoil and aftermarket Ali adaptor plate. Was sick of shimming the Tuttle head to try and get a solid connection so bit the bullet and used some JB Weld marine epoxy to make a (hopefully) permanent bond. Haven't tested it yet so time will tell....

You may prefer the axis 920 over the 1020 as the latter is a massive and slow wing which you'll quickly outgrow.

The Wasp 6m is MASSIVE.

My beginner set-up (coming from a kite foil background at 80kg) is the new Naish S25 hover wing 5"10 110L (probably should have gone for the 95L). Axis 920/400 (I have the 1000 wing for when I outgrow the 920). Plus a 4m + 6m Smik.

Thanks for all the comments...really useful !

Supply is still an issue here in Europe but the plan in next 2 weeks to land a 2021 Naish board (probably the 125... maybe 110...I'm 90kg beginner), the new Naish bonded 2000cm foil, and a 6m duotone Unit (or wasp if delayed) as its pretty light where I live eg a lot of F3 to F4.

In the meantime whislt I await my new gear i have just borrowed a Naish crossover 120 and 5.3 S25 and 2020 2000cm foil...had a couple of hours at the beach getting used to a wing mainly but too light and gusty for my lack of skill and weight to get up on the foil (i had a spin on a windsurf on the same day with a 7.5m sail with big free ride board and only got planing in the gusts)

I would start with the assumption that going out in less than 20 knots is futile, which it kind of is for a beginner. Start with power. Learn how to do it. Make your gear choices based on that.

As with kite foiling, light wind riding is an acquired skill. It's not a starting point. It's what you work your way towards.

Personally, I've found worrying too much about cost is counterproductive. Cheap gear doesn't last and creates too many problems. Being happy with your gear leads to more good sessions, which leads to much lower cost per hour of use.

There is a case for buying cheap if you're a total beginner and expect to destroy your gear at the start.

Is it just me or is winging in waves just terribly destructive to the wing. Bladder's popping, foils through the wing. Wings trashed in the shorebreak. Is there an easy way to get out through waves besides paddling like mad while timing the sets and hoping you can hold onto the leading edge with your toe?