Thought this topic deserved its own thread for discussing the design/construction of these boards, their performance and who is making what...here are a couple to get started...

Airinside: www.airinside.ch/boards/

Naish Nvision:

I wonder whose making the Naish boards and how they might differ from Airinside, and also how repairs work on either/both...

Others???

Quatro has already some hollow DW boards last year, starboard as well.

I had decades ago an hollow F2 Thommen windsurf slalomboard. tough as nails.When I got a fin going into it it was rather easy to repair by cutting the hole a bit bigger, patching it from the inside with low vacuum and then patching from the outside.

I'm riding a Starboard Zero Lightning 101L 8'2 x 18. It weighs 4.4kg which in itself is really good but the the two big upsides with this construction is the stiffness you achieve around the box and standing area + the fact that both nose and tail are much lighter than normal foamboards. This makes the board feel much smaller than it is as you are not fighting the normal swing weight of a foam board. The shell is also substantially more beefy than a lightweight foam-board so it's much less prone to dinging. And if dings your pour the water out, fix the ding and board weighs the same.

There is really only one negative - and that is the price. But the performance and durability you get, is so superior, that if it wasn't for the constant desire of searching for the next holy-grail shape then I reckon a well constructed one could last you a lifetime. If you compare to the mountainbike market where people pay way more for their rides I still think a lot of people will want to spend what it takes to get a hollow.

it's an obvious solution to the longer downwind SUPs, not sure if it makes sense on a freestyle wing board as the landings might take a toll after a while - Naish seem to discourage jumping on theirs.

Im disappointed in that seamless rail. For wing esp I feel like a rail with a seam (I'm imagining something like a sunfish sailboat even) would help deflect spray and be stronger and easier to produce(cheaper). The smooth rail is a stupid affectation from surfing that complicates the production and Doesnt add any value here.

Not sure how they build them, but putting a grinder over the seam before coating them doesnt seem too complicated. I can imagine that that seam is another possible thing to cut yourself/wing/parawing paddle on.

I still wanna know how Airinside came about when Patrik windsurf was making Airinside boards. Someone stole the tech and the name? Collab? If its the latter they'd have to be good, Patrik is really onto it.

But again - loving the marketing by all companies making it sound like they invented the idea - gawd

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Jeroensurf said..
Not sure how they build them, but putting a grinder over the seam before coating them doesnt seem too complicated. I can imagine that that seam is another possible thing to cut yourself/wing/parawing paddle on.

Molded parts are really easy compared to a glassed and hot coated thing. Molded parts require no sanding, no paint really, unlimited vacuum pressure for the tightest laminate. where you connect them though with no overlap - how do you reinforce the inside? On the outside you have to reinforce the seam with laminate and you can't use vacuum, then you have to grind it down and hot coat. It's like you have these perfect molded parts and your throwing a repair on it before it ever hits the water. Easily double the labor of just the molded parts

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TooMuchEpoxy said..
Im disappointed in that seamless rail. For wing esp I feel like a rail with a seam (I'm imagining something like a sunfish sailboat even) would help deflect spray and be stronger and easier to produce(cheaper). The smooth rail is a stupid affectation from surfing that complicates the production and Doesnt add any value here.

Before condemning this design, I'd consider how a seam on a rail will feel on the inside of your leg while straddling the board. Especially, if you have to sit on the board in rough seas over a long period of time and/or paddle it back in.

some info on Duotones entry:

www.duotonesports.com/en/wing-foiling/stories/behind-the-design-skybrid-d-lab

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TooMuchEpoxy said..

Jeroensurf said..
Not sure how they build them, but putting a grinder over the seam before coating them doesnt seem too complicated. I can imagine that that seam is another possible thing to cut yourself/wing/parawing paddle on.

Molded parts are really easy compared to a glassed and hot coated thing. Molded parts require no sanding, no paint really, unlimited vacuum pressure for the tightest laminate. where you connect them though with no overlap - how do you reinforce the inside? On the outside you have to reinforce the seam with laminate and you can't use vacuum, then you have to grind it down and hot coat. It's like you have these perfect molded parts and you're throwing a repair on it before it ever hits the water. Easily double the labor of just the molded parts

You mould it with a lip facing inwards so then the halves are glued together with say 10mm of surface - effectually the lip you refer to but its pointing inwards.
easy.

Yes you could have an internal lip and definitely easier with less tooling

Look at carbon bike frames where they inflate an internal bladder.
Or even better Time carbon bikes "after moulding, internal wax mandrels are melted and recycled leaving no material inside the frame. The standard prepreg moulding process usually leaves plastic bag or eps foam inside the structure."

Its exciting to see more companies develop hollow boards and great benefits

What I remember from the old Thommen Stealth hollow ones was that they used an lip to the inside, but by the gluing everything together you still get some epoxi coming out that you need to sand away before finnishing of with paint.
One of the challenges for the brands will be making a shape in a complicated construction were they not gonna sell thousands off (unlike bikes). ...and also wanna be recognisable as brand A,B,C with an premium finnish as you are paying a ****load of money for it

lol! All this talk of "the different brands" implying they're doing the innovation on this. It's all coming out of the same factory and it's the factory offering the technology.

Thats part of the reason for the seamless look "Hey KT we can make your existing shape in HC construction for $1000 a unit with a minimum of 100 units".
So much of what we think of as "appealing foil board shape" is built around the limits, convenience, and economics of prior technology. I just think if we started fresh around this technology we would see something much higher performance that looks wayyyyy different. I just know that for my personal prone board (which is still carbon over foam - but fancy foam) I focused on specific design attributes and ignored convention aesthetics (this board is UGLY) and the performance is phenomenal

these aren't manufacturers - they are marketing orgs

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TooMuchEpoxy said..
lol! All this talk of "the different brands" implying they're doing the innovation on this. It's all coming out of the same factory and it's the factory offering the technology.

So we know that Flikka is making all of these and they all use the same basic materials/construction?

many opinions here, actually there are a number of different factories producing hollow boards, each with their own technology. Most of the major players are producing in Asia, not at Flikka. Personally I do not really see the "claims" being made that any Brand (and all the major players are Brands, doing R&D, Product Development, Marketing, Sales, After Sales, Logistics, Purchasing, Customer Serveice etc) has come up with this technology or that it is new - but the fact that these new models are substantially lighter/stiffer than existing models with EPS cores is certainly a fact and obviously needs to be communicated.

these aren't manufacturers - they are marketing orgs

there is a lot more involved once a product has been manufactured according to Brand's specifications, as well the process before that. Whilst we appreciate all our suppliers top quality work, being a Brand has a lot more to do than simply manufacturing a product. It's one super important step in a longer process involving a large team of dedicated people, that is the same for any Brand, large or small.

Y'all know they were making 18ft skiffs with carbon pre preg/ nomex honeycomb in the 1980s yeah?

I know a few others have pointed it out already, but the technology is far from new. Hollow boards are essentially constructed in the same fashion that fibreglass/composite boats have been for decades.

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Mark _australia said..
I still wanna know how Airinside came about when Patrik windsurf was making Airinside boards. Someone stole the tech and the name? Collab? If its the latter they'd have to be good, Patrik is really onto it.

But again - loving the marketing by all companies making it sound like they invented the idea - gawd

"airinside" seems always to have been a swiss idea from the beginning. There were hollow windsurfbords of that name (and if I recall correctly another cooperation with F2 or some other brand) long before Patrik came up with it. Seems they teamed up the way the now team up with Flikka. So I guess they have the technology and work together with brands willing to use it for their production models.

I think several of the brands get these boards built by Cobra. Anyone know which ones are Cobra vs other builders, and how those technologies differ?

This is what I've just found:

The origins are laid out on the flikka airinside page, with a link to a more detailed story:

www.airinside.ch/about-us/

Man who cares who does what .

Is it light, durable and eventually at a price point that makes sense . then yeh baby lets go ...

I mean, I care because I think we'd have a cheaper better product if someone had innovated the design in conjunction with the construction process rather than "we can make a version of this exact shape that you can charge $2500 for" I mean I get it, all change is incremental. Im just bummed out because want I non EPS foil board and I'm too poor for this stuff and I'm so tired of making boards I just hate it more than anything. The carbon, the epoxy.the name Says it all
i have too much epoxy in my life I want less damnit!

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eppo said..
Man who cares who does what .

Is it light, durable and eventually at a price point that makes sense . then yeh baby lets go ...

It never has been before. maybe the popularity of the new disciplines will help with price due to volume - but i doubt it. they love to use a heap of technobabble about materials on the websites and sell you a board for $3000 plus that actually cost $500 per unit (if that)

Hollow will be another price increase.

On the other hand cost is a little justified as the tooling is expensive and has to change a lot. So my prediction also is less sizes per model. Fat guys and little chicks lose out

and your paddle is finished now

TheVirus has hollow boards at a decent price point, about eur 1400. Carbon with aramid.
?feature=shared

Hitting a board with a rubber mallet, while it's wobbling on a pallet, isn't the best durability demonstration.

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Mark _australia said..

eppo said..
Man who cares who does what .

Is it light, durable and eventually at a price point that makes sense . then yeh baby lets go ...

It never has been before. maybe the popularity of the new disciplines will help with price due to volume - but i doubt it. they love to use a heap of technobabble about materials on the websites and sell you a board for $3000 plus that actually cost $500 per unit (if that)

Hollow will be another price increase.

On the other hand cost is a little justified as the tooling is expensive and has to change a lot. So my prediction also is less sizes per model. Fat guys and little chicks lose out

and your paddle is finished now

haha nice ending perfect. Agree with the price markup of boards OMG!

I feel in the next two to three years there is going to be progress in material science that will eclipse the last couple of thousand years . Hollow boards won't even be necessary. ??????

Aerogel with synthetic spiderweb
all invented for the manned Mars mission

same as our current stuff filtered thru from secret NASA stuff

I still think the skill of some guys out ways gear.
In my case my skill is not good enough to get the best out of top level gear.

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ZeeGerman said..

Mark _australia said..
I still wanna know how Airinside came about when Patrik windsurf was making Airinside boards. Someone stole the tech and the name? Collab? If its the latter they'd have to be good, Patrik is really onto it.

But again - loving the marketing by all companies making it sound like they invented the idea - gawd

"airinside" seems always to have been a swiss idea from the beginning. There were hollow windsurfbords of that name (and if I recall correctly another cooperation with F2 or some other brand) long before Patrik came up with it. Seems they teamed up the way the now team up with Flikka. So I guess they have the technology and work together with brands willing to use it for their production models.

Yep, I bought one from Second Wind in the late 80s, it was an ex F2 Dunkerbeck owned hollow board.

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warwickl said..
I still think the skill of some guys out ways gear.
In my case my skill is not good enough to get the best out of top level gear.

Nah you think that, but you actually need new stuff. Go on.......

I had a hollow dw sup back in the day. Worked well.

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ZeeGerman said..
This is what I've just found:

The origins are laid out on the flikka airinside page, with a link to a more detailed story:

www.airinside.ch/about-us/

Doyle was making bombproof hollow windsurf boards decades before airinside "invented" the idea.