Just curious on peoples experience with this. I am an 85kg beginner/intermediate, have a big wing (7m) as well as a 5m and a 4m. I find the big wing too heavy, hard to jibe and never want to get it out. So im thinking I should just stick with the 5m and 4m and get a bigger foil to go with my current Spitfire 960, say a spitfire 1100 or 1180.Recently going to a smaller 85 litre board has made getting up on foil a lot easier just with a 5m in 12-13 knots so im thinking I can sell the 7m. Just looking to maximise fun when its marginal (12-15 knots)
Just curious on any feedback from people who have been through the bigger wing or bigger foil dilemma before.
Cheers

From day one I've been dedicated to never flying bigger than a 4.5m. Currently my biggest wing is a 4.2m and biggest foil is a 1350, I use that combo when the lulls are down to 5-6 knots and the average is around 10 knots. A really nice big foil is not that bad to ride, it's just a different style, but I never enjoy having a big wing in my hand.

Same, biggest hand wing is a 5mtr, I have 3 different foil wings I use depending on wind strength. At 80kgs I can wing my 74lts board from 9-25knots the 1440 front wing is really fun, I would use the Spitfire 1100 if on Axis for winging as I use it for prone

After trying all options from large hand wings to large foils I have tried to simplify my quiver to be the bare minimum.

I now ride my 1040sqcm foil for all conditions and I only use a 4.5m dlab Slick in all conditions.

What I change is my board. I use my 4'8" Kalama e3 in all winds unless wind drops below 14 knots then I use my 6'6" Sunover DW elite board for those lighter wind conditions.

I like the consistency of equipment as I have got really used to them and feel I can get the most out of them without needing to make decisions on equipment. Also less to put in the car.

As I am pretty short (5'8") and weigh 68kgs I found pumping onto foil with a large hand wing more of a detriment than help as it was too big to pump efficiently without hitting the water. 4.5m seems to be the perfect size to be able to pump efficiently with adequate area to keep me on foil once up in the lighter stuff.

The key is to get the efficient board and efficient foil. Big but not efficient foil will not help in really light wind.

Now I use Code 860R with Sunova DW 7'2"x18" 103L with 5M wing as my lightwind setup. 7kt gust iis enough to take off and I think it can get through the lightest lulls.

Select to expand quote

Macca1410 said..
As I am pretty short (5'8") and weigh 68kgs I found pumping onto foil with a large hand wing more of a detriment than help as it was too big to pump efficiently without hitting the water. 4.5m seems to be the perfect size to be able to pump efficiently with adequate area to keep me on foil once up in the lighter stuff.

This is also a good point. At 5'6" I can often pump a 3.5m meter hard enough to get on foil in nearly the same wind as my 4.2m. My 4.2m doesn't reach it's full potential because when I really pump it, I do clip the water.

I was in your position & got a 1180 hoping to make the marginal conditions fun . It's not much fun to me TBH. If I really want to get wet and aren't expecting much I'll go out but meh, I find it pretty slow & boring. You'll hear a lot of people raving about it but toss of the coin whether I'd take it out or my 980. Either way I'll still be riding with my big wing as light wind here usually means big holes as well. See if you can demo one first & see if you like winging in light winds before splashing out.

I think I've found my inflection point with a 5.5-5.7 m sail and an 1100 sqcm foil. Bigger sail is annoying as you mention and bigger foil isn't much fun.

One thing to keep in mind in the calculus here is that you need to match both the wind speed and the swell speed in your setup. For example, I'd use different combos in 15 knots depending on how fast the swell is. Faster waves I might use an 800 sqcm foil with a 5.7 sail. Slower waves or downwind I might use a 4 or 4.5 with an 1100 foil. And that's all assuming a -20L board. It changes a bit with a neutral or +10 board...

Wind direction in relation to swell also changes things. If its offshore or side-off, I can use a bigger sail and its no problem. If its onshore, I want a smaller sail.

Its a gear intensive sport...

Another options is to get a DW board. I love to ride my AFS Silk 1050 on my KT 7" 100L with Unit 3.5m in light wind. Super fun combo.

Hi Trakkar,
I'm 70kg and 175 cm & have the SF 960 and 1100. Haven't used the 11800. The 1100 gets up and going a little earlier than the 960. I don't find there's a lot of difference between the 1100 and 960. Lots of overlap between them. Just my take on this, but if you go the 1100, I suspect you might want to unload the 960 and go 900 SF as there's more difference between them. Budget might not allow that?
My experience with my 7', 130L DW board and 4.5m Unit:
PnG 1010 gets going in 9-10 knots.
SF 1100 in 10-11 knots.
SF 960 in 11-12
SF 900 in 12.
As for wings, my biggest is a 4.5. I'm not sure how tall you are, but I think max wing size should be related to your height and not so much weight because if it's too wide in wingspan you'll touch the wingtips more often when trying to pump up on foil. I think you're right to ditch your big wing if it doesn't feel good. You'll find as you improve your wing pumping technique, you'll be happier with smaller wings. I wouldn't bother re-investing in a wing bigger than 5m, if youre up and going in 12 knots. Your technique will improve and lower that threshold.
DW boards definitely improve the light wind take off. So I would consider a bigger foil or a DW board if you want to get going in lighter winds as an option.
How much money do you want to spend and how much gear do you want?
Cheapest option? Unload the 7m and grit your teeth. I'd be inclined to do this first and see how progress goes for a few months. Given you're an intermediate, there's a chance you may get to a point where you want different gear to that which we are discussing now. Or you improve your technique to a point at which you're comfortable and no money needs to be spent.
If you're keen to do something now? Maybe 1100 or 1180 SF into the mix.
Or DW board?
Hope this helps.

Select to expand quote

trakkar said..
Just curious on peoples experience with this. I am an 85kg beginner/intermediate, have a big wing (7m) as well as a 5m and a 4m. I find the big wing too heavy, hard to jibe and never want to get it out. So im thinking I should just stick with the 5m and 4m and get a bigger foil to go with my current Spitfire 960, say a spitfire 1100 or 1180.Recently going to a smaller 85 litre board has made getting up on foil a lot easier just with a 5m in 12-13 knots so im thinking I can sell the 7m. Just looking to maximise fun when its marginal (12-15 knots)
Just curious on any feedback from people who have been through the bigger wing or bigger foil dilemma before.
Cheers

There are definitely a gazillion ways to skin a cat, but FWIW:

I pick my sail and foil combo according to the type of riding that I want ONCE I'm on foil, and not so much worried about wing-tips, pump-ability at take-off. (e.g. If I want to go fast, then I will need a bigger sail / smaller foil combo, if I want to practice wing- maneuvers, then a smaller sail / bigger foil ... keep in mind there's only 2 x 2 = 4 combinations with my quiver).

Then, I pick the smallest of my 2 boards 58L and 99L that will guarantee easy take-off for the given conditions with the above wing & foil

So, if you don't enjoy the feel of the 7m, then, yes, scale down or find a lighter one and complimentary foil. On the other hand, when you learn how to use the 7m, your small wing game should be alright too

Cheers thanks everyone, some good info here. Think I might need to ditch the 7m wing. Tempted with a DW board but im at least a year away from that, budget and skill wise. Winter is coming here so its getting windier so i might stick with the SF960 for now.

Really good point on the wing size and tips hitting while pumping too.Might be able to demo an 1100 or 1180 at somepoint and ill see what gear comes out at AWSI.

I'm happy to be on my 7.0 if it lets me stay on a smaller foil when the wind drops and I want to jump. I'm tall so I don't mind a big wing and at 92kgs, I like knowing I can get on/stay on a smaller foil.

DC

I still use old Duotone Echo 7.0. It is amazing wing with very good low end. I also use Sabfoil W1250. Very big compared with my other HA wings. But I wingfoil on the inland lakes where wind can suddenly disappear, there are also some islands and steep scarps which makes wind gusty and unpredictable. For this year I just bought Takoon Escape SW 6'8 DW board. I am curious to see how all this kit will work. To be honest, I am not interested in light wind winging. But I want to have gear to be able to ride when I come to the spot. I have a possibility to wingfoil for a few hours every one or two weeks. So if I come to the place after driving for an hour and find that the wind conditions differs from the forecast, I have to pack, go home and wait another week or so.
So take the equipment according to your local conditions. Be judge yourself.

p.s. I like small HA foils and wingfoiling in big winds with small wing and board. But such conditions usually we have in late autumn when it is cold. And if I count, I get max 10 such sessions a year.

i ride an 8m wing often. sure, i prefer a smaller wing, but for me, the problem in light winds is always not feeling enough power in the wing to even stand up. a bigger board or foil does not help me if i don't feel any power in the wing. i'm 6'3", so being a bit taller helps with a bigger wing. but to date i've never found a foil or board that can compensate for being underpowered in the wing itself. if a 4m was my biggest wing, i'd miss 80% of my sessions.

Select to expand quote

Gencion said..
I still use old Duotone Echo 7.0. It is amazing wing with very good low end. I also use Sabfoil W1250. Very big compared with my other HA wings. But I wingfoil on the inland lakes where wind can suddenly disappear, there are also some islands and steep scarps which makes wind gusty and unpredictable. For this year I just bought Takoon Escape SW 6'8 DW board. I am curious to see how all this kit will work. To be honest, I am not interested in light wind winging. But I want to have gear to be able to ride when I come to the spot. I have a possibility to wingfoil for a few hours every one or two weeks. So if I come to the place after driving for an hour and find that the wind conditions differs from the forecast, I have to pack, go home and wait another week or so.
So take the equipment according to your local conditions. Be judge yourself.

p.s. I like small HA foils and wingfoiling in big winds with small wing and board. But such conditions usually we have in late autumn when it is cold. And if I count, I get max 10 such sessions a year.

Can I ask why you went for the Takoon 6'8 Escape SW instead of the 6'8 Ultra Glide? I'm currently considering one or the other?

Select to expand quote

beached57 said..
i ride an 8m wing often. sure, i prefer a smaller wing, but for me, the problem in light winds is always not feeling enough power in the wing to even stand up. a bigger board or foil does not help me if i don't feel any power in the wing. i'm 6'3", so being a bit taller helps with a bigger wing. but to date i've never found a foil or board that can compensate for being underpowered in the wing itself. if a 4m was my biggest wing, i'd miss 80% of my sessions.

Me too. I do't know what I'm doing wrong when I read how people can get a small wing going in light wind. My light wind solution is 8m wing, big foil and dw board. Easy fun.

Select to expand quote

Seastudent said..

beached57 said..
i ride an 8m wing often. sure, i prefer a smaller wing, but for me, the problem in light winds is always not feeling enough power in the wing to even stand up. a bigger board or foil does not help me if i don't feel any power in the wing. i'm 6'3", so being a bit taller helps with a bigger wing. but to date i've never found a foil or board that can compensate for being underpowered in the wing itself. if a 4m was my biggest wing, i'd miss 80% of my sessions.

Me too. I do't know what I'm doing wrong when I read how people can get a small wing going in light wind. My light wind solution is 8m wing, big foil and dw board. Easy fun.

You're not doing anything wrong, it's just a trick. Some people learn to jump. Some learn to water start small gear in light wind.
However, if you don't say goodbye to the big wing, you won't get better with a smaller wing.
All that matters is that you're having fun tho. Don't worry about matching anyone else's stats unless you want to.

Select to expand quote

BWalnut said..

Seastudent said..

beached57 said..
i ride an 8m wing often. sure, i prefer a smaller wing, but for me, the problem in light winds is always not feeling enough power in the wing to even stand up. a bigger board or foil does not help me if i don't feel any power in the wing. i'm 6'3", so being a bit taller helps with a bigger wing. but to date i've never found a foil or board that can compensate for being underpowered in the wing itself. if a 4m was my biggest wing, i'd miss 80% of my sessions.

Me too. I do't know what I'm doing wrong when I read how people can get a small wing going in light wind. My light wind solution is 8m wing, big foil and dw board. Easy fun.

You're not doing anything wrong, it's just a trick. Some people learn to jump. Some learn to water start small gear in light wind.
However, if you don't say goodbye to the big wing, you won't get better with a smaller wing.
All that matters is that you're having fun tho. Don't worry about matching anyone else's stats unless you want to.

Thanks brother. Just one more skill to practice. This season will be great.

a lot depends on personal preferences, skill level, and your local conditions. Light wind for some means a whole different thing to others. For people who are still learning and are falling off foil a lot, getting going again easily can be important whereas more experienced folk only need to get going once or a few times in a session, so the calculation on gear is different.

Using a long 115l DW board with a big Leviathan 1350 foil in light wind is different than using my 6'2" and AFS Pure HA 1100 in light wind. Both work, but they work differently and the ranges are slightly different, so it just depends on what suits your conditions, preferences, and skill level.

I will say going to a good efficient mid-length board is a really good performance upgrade in marginal conditions

Select to expand quote

MilesH said..

Gencion said..
I still use old Duotone Echo 7.0. It is amazing wing with very good low end. I also use Sabfoil W1250. Very big compared with my other HA wings. But I wingfoil on the inland lakes where wind can suddenly disappear, there are also some islands and steep scarps which makes wind gusty and unpredictable. For this year I just bought Takoon Escape SW 6'8 DW board. I am curious to see how all this kit will work. To be honest, I am not interested in light wind winging. But I want to have gear to be able to ride when I come to the spot. I have a possibility to wingfoil for a few hours every one or two weeks. So if I come to the place after driving for an hour and find that the wind conditions differs from the forecast, I have to pack, go home and wait another week or so.
So take the equipment according to your local conditions. Be judge yourself.

p.s. I like small HA foils and wingfoiling in big winds with small wing and board. But such conditions usually we have in late autumn when it is cold. And if I count, I get max 10 such sessions a year.

Can I ask why you went for the Takoon 6'8 Escape SW instead of the 6'8 Ultra Glide? I'm currently considering one or the other?

Escape SW due to its shape should have better low end, better glide and should get speed more quickly: boxy end vs. "modern" kalama shape, slightly narrower. And as I bought it used, the price was reasonable, slightly more expensive than new gong cruzader V1.
I hope it will be my one board solution for all the conditions. Time will show. In a few weeks I will open my season, then I will be able to tell more about trhe board.

Select to expand quote

Gencion said..

MilesH said..

Gencion said..
I still use old Duotone Echo 7.0. It is amazing wing with very good low end. I also use Sabfoil W1250. Very big compared with my other HA wings. But I wingfoil on the inland lakes where wind can suddenly disappear, there are also some islands and steep scarps which makes wind gusty and unpredictable. For this year I just bought Takoon Escape SW 6'8 DW board. I am curious to see how all this kit will work. To be honest, I am not interested in light wind winging. But I want to have gear to be able to ride when I come to the spot. I have a possibility to wingfoil for a few hours every one or two weeks. So if I come to the place after driving for an hour and find that the wind conditions differs from the forecast, I have to pack, go home and wait another week or so.
So take the equipment according to your local conditions. Be judge yourself.

p.s. I like small HA foils and wingfoiling in big winds with small wing and board. But such conditions usually we have in late autumn when it is cold. And if I count, I get max 10 such sessions a year.

Can I ask why you went for the Takoon 6'8 Escape SW instead of the 6'8 Ultra Glide? I'm currently considering one or the other?

Escape SW due to its shape should have better low end, better glide and should get speed more quickly: boxy end vs. "modern" kalama shape, slightly narrower. And as I bought it used, the price was reasonable, slightly more expensive than new gong cruzader V1.
I hope it will be my one board solution for all the conditions. Time will show. In a few weeks I will open my season, then I will be able to tell more about trhe board.

Thanks that's really useful to know.

Would be great if you could let me know how you get on

Which front wing in the Armstrong series makes for the best light wind sessions? HS1850? MA1750? HA1180? Of these three, I already own the HS1850. I'm 87Kg, intermediate rider. My everyday board is the Armstrong 88L but I have the Sultan Wing on order.

Select to expand quote

Seastudent said..
Me too. I do't know what I'm doing wrong when I read how people can get a small wing going in light wind. My light wind solution is 8m wing, big foil and dw board. Easy fun.

Riders can have very different definitions of "light wind". Some consider light wind is anything under 12kts. For others, 12 kts is plenty enough wind to wingfoil around at 25kts water speed on a 500cm2 kite foil, and "marginal wind" is anything under 7 or 6 kts.

Select to expand quote

trakkar said..
Just curious on peoples experience with this. I am an 85kg beginner/intermediate, have a big wing (7m) as well as a 5m and a 4m. I find the big wing too heavy, hard to jibe and never want to get it out. So im thinking I should just stick with the 5m and 4m and get a bigger foil to go with my current Spitfire 960, say a spitfire 1100 or 1180.Recently going to a smaller 85 litre board has made getting up on foil a lot easier just with a 5m in 12-13 knots so im thinking I can sell the 7m. Just looking to maximise fun when its marginal (12-15 knots)
Just curious on any feedback from people who have been through the bigger wing or bigger foil dilemma before.
Cheers

Repeating earlier comments: 1. If you have an easy lift-off (narrow) board, then you can get up foiling on a low drag and easy turning foil in much lighter wind (vs a wide draggy board). And once up, the extra speed+agility gives you a lot of fun options in most conditions. 2. If riding waves, your foil speed needs to match your target speed on the wave faces. The shorter and sloppier the waves the harder it is to make use of foil/water speed, even if you can carve-turn easily, so you go for a slower foil and smaller sail. Some people ride on short waves that others will overtake once every second.

I'm curious, what's the problem with your 7m sail? There might be a solution different to reduced sail area. eg. If cumbersome in gybes, then maybe learn the simple race-gybe technique. If you clip the sail tips on the water too often, then maybe get a longer foil-mast and/or a "CWC" style sail design. If your 7m feels slow and draggy upwind, then maybe get a more efficient model large sail. If you cannot pump up onto foil easily your 7m, then maybe get a 7m sail which has a deeper shape.

And, coming back to the issue of the height of the big 7m wings for a small guy on pumping. Does it make sense to have a big wing with a long and narrow board so that you don't pump, you only fly earlier with the power of the wing and the speed of the narrow board?

If you already have efficient board for light wind you may don't need 6-7M wing.

Sure big wing still help. With proper equipment, you may get up in 5kt with 7M wing instead of 6kt on 5M wing. The difference is not much. There is not much fun in 5kt wind anyway. But chasing the gust jibing around and try to stay on foil while everyone was sitting on thier board can be fun sometime.

Select to expand quote

choosywinger said..
Which front wing in the Armstrong series makes for the best light wind sessions? HS1850? MA1750? HA1180? Of these three, I already own the HS1850. I'm 87Kg, intermediate rider. My everyday board is the Armstrong 88L but I have the Sultan Wing on order.

Most of the winds I ride in from Nov to May here in the tropics are 6 to 8 knots, and u need a large wing if you want to have fun and power. The MA1750 with red shim and 220 glide tail works well with my Sultan wing board, 95Litre, this combo at 84kg using a 8m wing still requires pumping to get going, foil and wing. But once up has good power, have tried smaller wings but that requires too much pumping, and in 35C water and sun would soon be suffering from heat exhaustion.??

If you aren't having much fun with some of your equipment it's good that you are looking for improvements, however you may be missing out, as some posters have suggested, yes the 7m wing may be cumbersome, but with the 5m wing you may struggle to enjoy those very light wind sessions. My main wings are 6.0m being it's light to handle, jybe and pump and I like to be overpowered, where I wing is very gusty, with the winds dropping to zero and we often have to sit in the water for 10_15 minutes to wait for the next good wind cycle, so 6m is my sweet spot. Of course more efficient gear is going to mean you can downsize your hand wing. (also one brand's 5m is nearly the same size as another brand's 6m so you need to do a bit of homework)

Select to expand quote

MilesH said..

Gencion said..

MilesH said..

Gencion said..
I still use old Duotone Echo 7.0. It is amazing wing with very good low end. I also use Sabfoil W1250. Very big compared with my other HA wings. But I wingfoil on the inland lakes where wind can suddenly disappear, there are also some islands and steep scarps which makes wind gusty and unpredictable. For this year I just bought Takoon Escape SW 6'8 DW board. I am curious to see how all this kit will work. To be honest, I am not interested in light wind winging. But I want to have gear to be able to ride when I come to the spot. I have a possibility to wingfoil for a few hours every one or two weeks. So if I come to the place after driving for an hour and find that the wind conditions differs from the forecast, I have to pack, go home and wait another week or so.
So take the equipment according to your local conditions. Be judge yourself.

p.s. I like small HA foils and wingfoiling in big winds with small wing and board. But such conditions usually we have in late autumn when it is cold. And if I count, I get max 10 such sessions a year.

Can I ask why you went for the Takoon 6'8 Escape SW instead of the 6'8 Ultra Glide? I'm currently considering one or the other?

Escape SW due to its shape should have better low end, better glide and should get speed more quickly: boxy end vs. "modern" kalama shape, slightly narrower. And as I bought it used, the price was reasonable, slightly more expensive than new gong cruzader V1.
I hope it will be my one board solution for all the conditions. Time will show. In a few weeks I will open my season, then I will be able to tell more about trhe board.

Thanks that's really useful to know.

Would be great if you could let me know how you get on

I had my first ride with Takoon Escape SW and I really loved it.
The wind was 6-14m/s, gusty wing conditions.
Sabfoil Leviathan 1150 - used for the first time
S483 stab
Ensis wing 6m2 (5m wing would be enough)
183 cm height, weight 78kg + winter wetsuit

This was my first experience with long and relatively (according to today standards) narrow board. Before my narrowest board was Reeding Feather 63 cm wide. Takoon felt amazingly stable on the water and very nice feels on the flight. Touchdowns are smooth. You even do not pay attention to them. Board just slices the water, accelerates and flies again. On gybes I always step on the rail. I need to get used to the width.
Some points to investigate: It looks like the holes for the footstraps are too far to the front. Foil was places at the middle of the tracks. And my front feet was behind the last holes. It also looks like that the foil track is too far to the back (?). I will check it with my other HA foils.
Also the volume for me felt more like 90L board, like I ride my AK Phazer 90L.

When I have more sessions, I could give more informative feedback. But at the moment I think this board will be my one board solution.

Select to expand quote

Gencion said..

MilesH said..

Gencion said..

MilesH said..

Gencion said..
I still use old Duotone Echo 7.0. It is amazing wing with very good low end. I also use Sabfoil W1250. Very big compared with my other HA wings. But I wingfoil on the inland lakes where wind can suddenly disappear, there are also some islands and steep scarps which makes wind gusty and unpredictable. For this year I just bought Takoon Escape SW 6'8 DW board. I am curious to see how all this kit will work. To be honest, I am not interested in light wind winging. But I want to have gear to be able to ride when I come to the spot. I have a possibility to wingfoil for a few hours every one or two weeks. So if I come to the place after driving for an hour and find that the wind conditions differs from the forecast, I have to pack, go home and wait another week or so.
So take the equipment according to your local conditions. Be judge yourself.

p.s. I like small HA foils and wingfoiling in big winds with small wing and board. But such conditions usually we have in late autumn when it is cold. And if I count, I get max 10 such sessions a year.

Can I ask why you went for the Takoon 6'8 Escape SW instead of the 6'8 Ultra Glide? I'm currently considering one or the other?

Escape SW due to its shape should have better low end, better glide and should get speed more quickly: boxy end vs. "modern" kalama shape, slightly narrower. And as I bought it used, the price was reasonable, slightly more expensive than new gong cruzader V1.
I hope it will be my one board solution for all the conditions. Time will show. In a few weeks I will open my season, then I will be able to tell more about trhe board.

Thanks that's really useful to know.

Would be great if you could let me know how you get on

I had my first ride with Takoon Escape SW and I really loved it.
The wind was 6-14m/s, gusty wing conditions.
Sabfoil Leviathan 1150 - used for the first time
S483 stab
Ensis wing 6m2 (5m wing would be enough)
183 cm height, weight 78kg + winter wetsuit

This was my first experience with long and relatively (according to today standards) narrow board. Before my narrowest board was Reeding Feather 63 cm wide. Takoon felt amazingly stable on the water and very nice feels on the flight. Touchdowns are smooth. You even do not pay attention to them. Board just slices the water, accelerates and flies again. On gybes I always step on the rail. I need to get used to the width.
Some points to investigate: It looks like the holes for the footstraps are too far to the front. Foil was places at the middle of the tracks. And my front feet was behind the last holes. It also looks like that the foil track is too far to the back (?). I will check it with my other HA foils.
Also the volume for me felt more like 90L board, like I ride my AK Phazer 90L.

When I have more sessions, I could give more informative feedback. But at the moment I think this board will be my one board solution.

Thanks for that really useful and sounds like you are happy with it

I have the Takoon Glide v2 and the footstrap holes are too far forward as well (I had to add a couple of extra holes).

Has your board got the newer 13/14 inch foil tracks? Surprised if they are too far back, but I know the newer tracks allow more forward adjustment.

Keep the updates coming, as you're the only person I know with a DW Takoon board and I am about to order the Ultra Glide. Or feel free to PM if it's easier