Can a 83kg guy jump from a 93 to a 50l board, or should there be a semi-sinker first?
What's the general skill level required to jump to a semi-sinker and a sinker?

50L is a semi sinker. Go for it.

I'll say yes. I just went from an 80 something litre to a 48, 44, and sub 40 in the space of a couple of days. I'm 73kg. I knee start all of them btw.

Once you are up on the foil size is irrelevant. The challenge is getting up on the foil to start with.

I am assuming a knee start and not foot strap start:

You maybe highly skilled and able to simply hop onto the board on your knees and lift your wing up off the water and get going. I wing with a few folks that are able to do this. For me (110kg) on 45L and 51L boards I had to learn the stinkbug method to be able to mount the board and get the wing into a position to fly the wing. This is the first of three important steps you need to sort out.

The second is that your board will be somewhat submerged after you are on your knees and have the wing set. You need to get some forward movement to get your board to the surface so it begins skimming on the water surface. The challenge is not burying the front of your wing when you are lifting it and pumping it to move your board to the water surface. Maintaining your balance while you are pumping can be challenging when you are first learning. You do improve your kneeling balance with time and multiple starts. You will get some good forward speed once you get the board to the water surface and this is super important to assist in the pop-up.

The third is the pop up to your feet. I generally pop up onto my feet right foot first. Heading to my right, no dramas. When I head to my left, my right foot becomes the rear foot and popping up on such a small board becomes problematic. You need to practice popping up on the "leading foot first", it will make a world of difference. It also heaps to make it snappy (bit like a one movement surface board take off). Use the power of the wing to lift you up.

When I was learning, I used a larger than necessary wing to make it all happen and I already use a very large foil (2100cm2).
The surface area of your sinker/semi-sinker does make huge a difference getting to the water surface.

IMHO ... I think allot depends on wind consistency. With the 90liter you can slog around off foil & unless the wind is zero, you won't have to paddle/swim in... With say 45-60liters you will need some power in your wing to slog - even if not quite enough to get up on foil, but if the wind really drops you are paddling. If you have enough to get up on foil with the 90liter you will have enough for the 50liter, with good technique maybe less due to ease of pumping. With a true sinker you need not only enough to get on foil but enough to get the board to the surface from a sink start so generally just more consistent & stronger wind.

At 68kg i use a 5.0 75l , i started using the stink bug but ended up finding it way easier just to get straight onto my knees with the wing next to in the water to help balance then just pick the wing up and start from there.
I found for me with the stink bug in really choppy water my board was really tippy and if i started tipping i couldn't always stop it.
Would a lesser volume board actually be easier , less float and slightly under the water line?
Would i lose much low end?

Select to expand quote

UkWinger said..
At 68kg i use a 5.0 75l , i started using the stink bug but ended up finding it way easier just to get straight onto my knees with the wing next to in the water to help balance then just pick the wing up and start from there.
I found for me with the stink bug in really choppy water my board was really tippy and if i started tipping i couldn't always stop it.
Would a lesser volume board actually be easier , less float and slightly under the water line?
Would i lose much low end?

Based on your weight, the stinkbug method would work better on a board that would be below ~60L.

I have a 125L board and all that floatiness makes an old style knee start easier.

Select to expand quote

UkWinger said..
At 68kg i use a 5.0 75l , i started using the stink bug but ended up finding it way easier just to get straight onto my knees with the wing next to in the water to help balance then just pick the wing up and start from there.
I found for me with the stink bug in really choppy water my board was really tippy and if i started tipping i couldn't always stop it.
Would a lesser volume board actually be easier , less float and slightly under the water line?
Would i lose much low end?

stink bud works best when board submerged. Even slightly.

Select to expand quote

bigtone667 said..

UkWinger said..
At 68kg i use a 5.0 75l , i started using the stink bug but ended up finding it way easier just to get straight onto my knees with the wing next to in the water to help balance then just pick the wing up and start from there.
I found for me with the stink bug in really choppy water my board was really tippy and if i started tipping i couldn't always stop it.
Would a lesser volume board actually be easier , less float and slightly under the water line?
Would i lose much low end?

Based on your weight, the stinkbug method would work better on a board that would be below ~60L.

I have a 125L board and all that floatiness makes an old style knee start easier.

I use stink bug on everything now unless the water is dead flat & I'm already kneeling. To me the whole point is to stabilize the board with the wing on the water & then being able to quickly power up the wing before you can lose your balance...

Thanks all, looking forward to try it!
What's the stink bug? Is it the second technique in this video (turn on subtitles): ?
A friend gave me leftover foam to shape a small foil board. I've done a 150cmx52 cm 44l prone board with a boxy outline, beveled rails and pretty big tail kick (a bit to big probably, but I wanted to compare it to my no tail kick boards). Personally I'm more of the natural flow outline, simple round to straight rails and no tailkick school, but these boards are different and you can't be sure until you've tried it all!
what are the features you like and don't like in those +-50l boards?

Select to expand quote

NicoDC said..
Thanks all, looking forward to try it!
What's the stink bug? Is it the second technique in this video (turn on subtitles):

?
A friend gave me leftover foam to shape a small foil board. I've done a 150cmx52 cm 44l prone board with a boxy outline, beveled rails and pretty big tail kick (a bit to big probably, but I wanted to compare it to my no tail kick boards). Personally I'm more of the natural flow outline, simple round to straight rails and no tailkick school, but these boards are different and you can't be sure until you've tried it all!
what are the features you like and don't like in those +-50l boards?

I have the same board as him but in 85 & 55liter - Takuma TK ... so similar in proportion to my weight - 78kg. The 2nd technique is a stink bug start, though I do not kneel parallel as he does but more across the width.

Bahahahahaha

I would have swapped hands for that

whats the benefit of a sinker compared with a short neutral board?

The sinker I am mostly using is 51L 5'10" and my neutral board is 95L 5'4" .... Even though the 51L is longer, it is about half the weight and lot more fun to ride, turn, pump.

I am also using a 45L 4'10" and the fun level once up on the foil is even more so than the 51L or 95L boards.

Select to expand quote

bigtone667 said..



Bahahahahaha

Gold! Hahahaa

Select to expand quote

Clamsmasha said..
I'll say yes. I just went from an 80 something litre to a 48, 44, and sub 40 in the space of a couple of days. I'm 73kg. I knee start all of them btw.

Any good videos on knee starting a sinker? Also, assuming the real benefit of a small board / sinker is aerials, or is it more than this?

Select to expand quote

Sputnik11 said..

Clamsmasha said..
I'll say yes. I just went from an 80 something litre to a 48, 44, and sub 40 in the space of a couple of days. I'm 73kg. I knee start all of them btw.

Any good videos on knee starting a sinker? Also, assuming the real benefit of a small board / sinker is aerials, or is it more than this?

This is pretty much how do it. I use the depower handle the really lean on vertically to set myself up on the board though...then start reaching for the handles. I can launch toeside or heelside...(goofy no switcheroo)

My board is entirely below waterline when stationary. It starts to semi plane at a low speed and heads for the surface.If you can fluidly jump to your feet when you get a gust and pump the board and wing, I found I don't need as much wind and time as a sinkerBeside airtime, I found that even a small difference in dims on paper (especially weight) let me turn the foil like I've never turned before. Like I could really rail it. I was on a 950cm foil, so it was fast and easy to roll over without having to mediate the inertia of the board.

One thing I hated when I started winging, was going from a prone board to a "sup" style board. No matter how good you are, a big board is never going to have the performance of a small board. So if you can suffer the odd indignity of not getting a gust...smaller is better.

Select to expand quote

Clamsmasha said..

Sputnik11 said..

Clamsmasha said..
I'll say yes. I just went from an 80 something litre to a 48, 44, and sub 40 in the space of a couple of days. I'm 73kg. I knee start all of them btw.

Any good videos on knee starting a sinker? Also, assuming the real benefit of a small board / sinker is aerials, or is it more than this?

This is pretty much how do it. I use the depower handle the really lean on vertically to set myself up on the board though...then start reaching for the handles. I can launch toeside or heelside...(goofy no switcheroo)

My board is entirely below waterline when stationary. It starts to semi plane at a low speed and heads for the surface.If you can fluidly jump to your feet when you get a gust and pump the board and wing, I found I don't need as much wind and time as a sinkerBeside airtime, I found that even a small difference in dims on paper (especially weight) let me turn the foil like I've never turned before. Like I could really rail it. I was on a 950cm foil, so it was fast and easy to roll over without having to mediate the inertia of the board.

One thing I hated when I started winging, was going from a prone board to a "sup" style board. No matter how good you are, a big board is never going to have the performance of a small board. So if you can suffer the odd indignity of not getting a gust...smaller is better.

Muchas gracias.

Select to expand quote

Sputnik11 said..

Clamsmasha said..

Sputnik11 said..

Clamsmasha said..
I'll say yes. I just went from an 80 something litre to a 48, 44, and sub 40 in the space of a couple of days. I'm 73kg. I knee start all of them btw.

Any good videos on knee starting a sinker? Also, assuming the real benefit of a small board / sinker is aerials, or is it more than this?

This is pretty much how do it. I use the depower handle the really lean on vertically to set myself up on the board though...then start reaching for the handles. I can launch toeside or heelside...(goofy no switcheroo)

My board is entirely below waterline when stationary. It starts to semi plane at a low speed and heads for the surface.If you can fluidly jump to your feet when you get a gust and pump the board and wing, I found I don't need as much wind and time as a sinkerBeside airtime, I found that even a small difference in dims on paper (especially weight) let me turn the foil like I've never turned before. Like I could really rail it. I was on a 950cm foil, so it was fast and easy to roll over without having to mediate the inertia of the board.

One thing I hated when I started winging, was going from a prone board to a "sup" style board. No matter how good you are, a big board is never going to have the performance of a small board. So if you can suffer the odd indignity of not getting a gust...smaller is better.

Muchas gracias.

De nada, amigo.

Select to expand quote

bigtone667 said..



Bahahahahaha

That's the best way sometimes lol

Select to expand quote

bigtone667 said..



Bahahahahaha

"When it's bloody choppy and you get tossed off while kneeling on the board for the 3rd time in a row"

I tried my 42.5 L board last weekend for the first time.

I'm about 80 kg and normally use an 89 L board.

All in all it went well. Got up and going second attempt and thought "what's all the fuss about?(maybe I'm just super skilled!)", did a few runs over and back then when I finally fell in, it took about 15 attempt to get going again! Lots of falling, but got several more runs. Went out again the next day with a little bit more wind and it was much easier (but still a lot of false starts).

My main advice:
1. Get the stink bug start nailed on your normal board first. It's fairly easy once you just commit to it a few times. Don't know how I would have done it any other way. Granted I was at the beach with lots of onshore wind chop - not the best learning conditions. There's a good thread on this forum with lots of videos. I start with knees across the board so the board is already pointing the right way.
2. You need plenty of wind or a bigger wing than you would normally use for the conditions, even if only for the first session or two. Helps you balance by using the wing to lift your weight and helps get the board moving and on top of the water.
3. Prepare to be humbled / frustrated like your first few sessions.

Hope this helps.

This is the stink bug thread. Lots of good advice any videos:

www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Wing-Foiling/Wind-Wings/StinkBug-Wingfoil-Start-maybe-the-only-start-you-need-

To the folks who haven't embraced the stink bug start method, try this: instead of using the leading edge handle, just use the front power handle. Having the front power handle in your hand before you get on your knees (whether sitting or laying across the board) eliminates one step where you are the most unstable. It has sped up my take-offs immeasurably. Just pretend you no longer have a leading edge handle. It's so efficient.

Select to expand quote

radair said..
To the folks who haven't embraced the stink bug start method, try this: instead of using the leading edge handle, just use the front power handle. Having the front power handle in your hand before you get on your knees (whether sitting or laying across the board) eliminates one step where you are the most unstable. It has sped up my take-offs immeasurably. Just pretend you no longer have a leading edge handle. It's so efficient.

gear helps too: F-One Strike for instance has big soft handles and a "V" shape. This helps to get between board and wing holding the front handle and board rail

I got the sinker bug now only took me a couple of sessions to get the hand of knee water starts.

Couple of lessons learnt:
* It's easier than you think it is. Just need to commit !
* DON'T use a 4m when you think you can.... 99% you won't have enough power to get going even though everyone else is on 4/5m. Always assume 6m unless hopelessly overpowered.
* Use the wing floating to lean your hands on top when positioning your knees
* Turn around your harness hook before mounting the sinker then turn back in front when kneeing on it
* You need a full traction pad. I kept slipping off where I don't have a pad between front and back
* You crash a lot less with a sinker. Not sure whether it's because you're more focused not to crash and/or a sinker touches the water less.
* Pumping is next level with a sinker
* Forget the waist leash, a calf leash is heaps better. And yes you'll get some sore skin marks from it initially at the bottom of the thigh from the kneeing.

I'm 72-75kg, using 34L Armstrong FG as sinker and 60L as my big board.
After getting used to my sinker, there is no desire to ride a "giant" 60L board, the more time you spend with the sinker the less wind you need to get it up. As long as there is 15knots (gusting 17 once in a while), 34L is plenty with 5m wing.

Select to expand quote

ArtemN said..
I'm 72-75kg, using 34L Armstrong FG as sinker and 60L as my big board.
After getting used to my sinker, there is no desire to ride a "giant" 60L board, the more time you spend with the sinker the less wind you need to get it up. As long as there is 15knots (gusting 17 once in a while), 34L is plenty with 5m wing.

I'm 68- 70kgs and would prefer to be on my 3.5 wing in over 15kts , this is part of the reason I don't won't to rush to sinker boards. Currently on a 75l but do have a 18l slingshot 4.10ish wakefoil board that I would like to try (might be a step to far!).

Select to expand quote

UkWinger said..

ArtemN said..
I'm 72-75kg, using 34L Armstrong FG as sinker and 60L as my big board.
After getting used to my sinker, there is no desire to ride a "giant" 60L board, the more time you spend with the sinker the less wind you need to get it up. As long as there is 15knots (gusting 17 once in a while), 34L is plenty with 5m wing.

I'm 68- 70kgs and would prefer to be on my 3.5 wing in over 15kts , this is part of the reason I don't won't to rush to sinker boards. Currently on a 75l but do have a 18l slingshot 4.10ish wakefoil board that I would like to try (might be a step to far!).

Well said, same here, 5m is my marginal wind wing size.
I have tried the sinker a few times but the added livelines does not compensate the royal PITA of getting up and going again.

A light ,well balanced 70-85l board is just a lot less tiring in the inconsistent conditions i have.Much more so when i am learning maneuvers and falling a lot.

This rush towards 30l boards reminds me of surfing, when everybody was determined to ride a potato chip comp board no matter what.

In a 2020 interview Balz Muller said that his most used wing board size was a 58l.

Select to expand quote

mcrt said..

UkWinger said..

ArtemN said..
I'm 72-75kg, using 34L Armstrong FG as sinker and 60L as my big board.
After getting used to my sinker, there is no desire to ride a "giant" 60L board, the more time you spend with the sinker the less wind you need to get it up. As long as there is 15knots (gusting 17 once in a while), 34L is plenty with 5m wing.

I'm 68- 70kgs and would prefer to be on my 3.5 wing in over 15kts , this is part of the reason I don't won't to rush to sinker boards. Currently on a 75l but do have a 18l slingshot 4.10ish wakefoil board that I would like to try (might be a step to far!).

Well said, same here, 5m is my marginal wind wing size.
I have tried the sinker a few times but the added livelines does not compensate the royal PITA of getting up and going again.

A light ,well balanced 70-85l board is just a lot less tiring in the inconsistent conditions i have.Much more so when i am learning maneuvers and falling a lot.

This rush towards 30l boards reminds me of surfing, when everybody was determined to ride a potato chip comp board no matter what.

In a 2020 interview Balz Muller said that his most used wing board size was a 58l.

Balz Muller does freestyle jumps so he crashes after almost every trick hence he needs more volume than a proper sinker....

Trust me after 1+and years of wing experience, you're ready to give the sinker board a try. The board is surprisingly stable under water. It's not as corky as a floater on top of messy choppy waters.

What's the verdict on size guys? Sometimes a read half the weight, the half the weight+ 5% or +10%.I,m between 95-99kg, now having lots of fun with my AK5.8x90l but thinking about going sinker for the more agile feel.I can try lots of gear, but sinkers aren,t one of them :( so have to order and buy before without a demo.So tips for a big fella wingfoil sinker are welcome. I don,t prone or jump so it is exclusively Wingfoil wave riding but got a bit lost in all the choices. Fanatic, Naish, AK, Smik, Takuma, they all look good but wich one and what size?