Hi guys
I'm looking for advise on foil position in the board.
I was out today on a new to me board
I did the usual basic position where if I lift the board from the foil it balanced nice and leavel
So consider that to be good place to start
The board is a 4.10 takon comet 85l paired with a phantasm 926ptm foil wind was around 15mph with a 6m duotone echo wing
I saild for over a hour but couldn't get flying I couldn't pick up any speed so couldn't get any lift from the foil
Having a chat back at the beach it was suggested
My foil was to far forwards in the track
Is this a possibility I thought more forward means more lift
Any advice ideas would be much appreciated
Thanks

I base my foil position off the balance point of the board. Do you have a board that works well for you already that you could check this from?Using the board that you know where the foil goes:
1. Put a piece of tape on the board at the middle of the mast location on the board that you know works.
2. Remove the mast and find the balance point of the board (I balance my board on my paddle).
3. Place a piece of tape at the balance point.
4. Measure from the balance point to the previously placed piece of tape from the center of the mast. Save this measurement.
5. Find the balance point on your 4'10" and mark it with a piece of tape.
6. Place the center of the mast the same measurement back from the balance point of your other board.

For my foils, the center of the mast is always about 12" back from the balance point no matter what board I put the foil on.

Good luck!

I have been through a similar experience with my amudmundon 4'10 65l board. Struggled for lift so had been shifting the mast forward with no improvement, just meant my foot positions were off once flying. I could get foiling, just seemed hard. Eventually trialled it way further back and getting going has improved drastically. Ive since moved it slighty further forward gor better in flight balance and changed my strap postions to suit. Must be either down to the board waterline length relative to mast, prehaps exagerqted on short boards or how I distribute my weight when off the foil.

Hi @seaanchor,

Please share your skill level and weight.

Look at the bottom shape and the volume distribution first. This dictates where you should stand on the board for it to have the chance to get going easily. Then position the foil according to where you stand.

I am surprised someone suggested your foil might be too much forward. I would think it is too much backward if you cannot get flying. That was my problem when I started wingfoiling. Your front wing should be just between your feet.

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FranP said..
Hi @seaanchor,

Please share your skill level and weight.

Hi Fran
I have been wind foiling for 4 years at a good standard
And wing foil for a year on a slingshot wizard 114
Not very well although my light wind performance
Was reasonable
This is my first dedicated wing board
My weight is around 78kg dry
My priority yesterday was to try and trim the board level and build enough speed for take of.
Whatever I tried with wing pumping bare away didant seem to engage the foil and give me any feed back to work on increasing bord speed and gradually bouncing the board of the water

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RolfB said..
I am surprised someone suggested your foil might be too much forward. I would think it is too much backward if you cannot get flying. That was my problem when I started wingfoiling. Your front wing should be just between your feet.

Rolf the theory was it starts to lift you at a slow speed and tip you backwards diging the tail and staling you start to move forwards to compensate
And Bury the nose as soon as you lose trim

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seaanchor said..

FranP said..
Hi @seaanchor,

Please share your skill level and weight.

Hi Fran
I have been wind foiling for 4 years at a good standard
And wing foil for a year on a slingshot wizard 114
Not very well although my light wind performance
Was reasonable
This is my first dedicated wing board
My weight is around 78kg dry
My priority yesterday was to try and trim the board level and build enough speed for take of.
Whatever I tried with wing pumping bare away didant seem to engage the foil and give me any feed back to work on increasing bord speed and gradually bouncing the board of the water

Since you are experienced rider, your weight is ok for the foil you have, and assuming you mounted all parts properly, the only possible factor I see is an unusual rake. Either the foil or the takoon are not "standard" flat so you might need to angle the base plate.

Select to expand quote

FranP said..

seaanchor said..

FranP said..
Hi @seaanchor,

Please share your skill level and weight.

Hi Fran
I have been wind foiling for 4 years at a good standard
And wing foil for a year on a slingshot wizard 114
Not very well although my light wind performance
Was reasonable
This is my first dedicated wing board
My weight is around 78kg dry
My priority yesterday was to try and trim the board level and build enough speed for take of.
Whatever I tried with wing pumping bare away didant seem to engage the foil and give me any feed back to work on increasing bord speed and gradually bouncing the board of the water

Since you are experienced rider, your weight is ok for the foil you have, and assuming you mounted all parts properly, the only possible factor I see is an unusual rake. Either the foil or the takoon are not "standard" flat so you might need to angle the base plate.

Thanks Franp
I will use my angle finder on my phone to check my alignment
And report back

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BWalnut said..
I base my foil position off the balance point of the board. Do you have a board that works well for you already that you could check this from?Using the board that you know where the foil goes:
1. Put a piece of tape on the board at the middle of the mast location on the board that you know works.
2. Remove the mast and find the balance point of the board (I balance my board on my paddle).
3. Place a piece of tape at the balance point.
4. Measure from the balance point to the previously placed piece of tape from the center of the mast. Save this measurement.
5. Find the balance point on your 4'10" and mark it with a piece of tape.
6. Place the center of the mast the same measurement back from the balance point of your other board.

For my foils, the center of the mast is always about 12" back from the balance point no matter what board I put the foil on.

Good luck!

BWalnut when you are finding the balance point of the new board (and assuming you use footstraps) do you keep them installed?

Select to expand quote

MilesH said..

BWalnut said..
I base my foil position off the balance point of the board. Do you have a board that works well for you already that you could check this from?Using the board that you know where the foil goes:
1. Put a piece of tape on the board at the middle of the mast location on the board that you know works.
2. Remove the mast and find the balance point of the board (I balance my board on my paddle).
3. Place a piece of tape at the balance point.
4. Measure from the balance point to the previously placed piece of tape from the center of the mast. Save this measurement.
5. Find the balance point on your 4'10" and mark it with a piece of tape.
6. Place the center of the mast the same measurement back from the balance point of your other board.

For my foils, the center of the mast is always about 12" back from the balance point no matter what board I put the foil on.

Good luck!

BWalnut when you are finding the balance point of the new board (and assuming you use footstraps) do you keep them installed?

No footstraps for me, I'd take them off when you are looking for the balance point. Essentially the balance point you are seeking is the volume balance point where 50% of the volume is in front of that point and 50% is behind. The straps would throw that off a bit.

Doing it this way optimizes and coordinates the natural balance and float position of the board when standing in the water and aligns it with your bodies centerline. You may find that your footstraps naturally fall into place, or are at times out of place depending on the manufacturers insert pattern.

I think the Wizard is 5'8" - it's going to accelerate a lot easier than the 4'10" so it might just take some getting used to. It is also possible that there's a mis-match with the rake of the slingshot foil and the board but I'm not familiar with those foils. It is a wing/surf foil setup right? not a windsurf fuselage?

I'll chip in my 2c worth to all the suggestions
- foil forward gives more lift but as BWalnut says having the foil in a balanced position is much more important on short small boards
- you can get more lift with a larger lower aspect front foil, of course you know this already
- so I would suggest you place a positive shim block under the foil base plate about 2mm at the fat end, fat end facing rear of board
(you get nose down but more lift)
- you can also try adding a slightly longer wider tail this should make pumping up a little easier
- you could go bigger on your wind wing to get even more acceleration
maybe it was one of those days that seems windy but the wind doesn't blow well over the water surface

Never got why the balance method should give a good foil placement.

You want to get center of buoyancy (for when off foil) and center of lift (for when on foil) not too far apart. Which isn't necessarily the same as the the board balancing flat when lifting the front foil, for one thing the mast/fuse weighs a lot but doesn't add buoyancy.

It sounds like your foil placement is too far back. I guess you would be standing with the board trimmed correctly when off the foil but this would be too far forwards when on foil, which would make it super hard to take off - so moving the foil forward will fix, but ultimately you just have to play with some different positions and see how it feels.

Sometimes, misplaced foils behave differently than we expect, and in a quite un-intuitive way. In windfoiling, we can compensate quite a bit for small errors in foil placement by changing mast foot pressure, and by sailing backfoot-heavy. In winging, your stance will be more balanced, so the placement is more important. I wing without straps, and when I started, I often found that I could not get going if my feet were just a few cm too far forward. They'd often move a bit forward without me noticing when I pumped.

The other issue is that you are on a very short board, which may be reluctant to build up enough speed to feel the foil push up, even if the foil is in the right position. It may require a bit of a different start than what you're used to: whip the board out of the water at relatively low speed, then build speed pumping when the board has at least partially released. When starting on a downwind angle (which you usually want to do due to chop), you also have to turn upwind (to a beam reach) right away when the board pops out of the water, or your apparent wind will drop too much when you pick up speed.

But first, try moving the foil backward in 3 cm increments (no mast foot pressure means the foil can be back further than it would be with a sail on the same board). If that does not help, try moving it forward from your current position.

Thanks for all your great suggestions I have a small update of sort
I got out the other day completely different conditions flat water wind speed 30mph gusting to over 40 4.2m wing
So not realy a good comparison from my first attempt
I have moved the foil back about 30mm
And the board seemed to pick up speed easier
With less force in the wing (not sheeting in hard)
Managed plenty of foiling runs and even some flying gybes so a good session although the light wind performance is yet to be tested
Thanks for everyone's input so far