I just watched an official video on Ensis wings where the guy says to use low pressure for light winds and high for strong winds. Someone has asked isn't that the wrong way round. Is it?

I'm not sure as I always pump to max pressure , there's so much range on my Ensis spins I've never felt that I wanted more or less power when riding unless I'm crazy overpowered or the wind dies either way I would just change wings and not mess about with slight pressure change as I don't think that would make a great deal of difference?

It does sound the wrong way round though as you think lower pressure would give a little more etc

From memory of my windsurf days, low down haul for light winds and hard down haul for strong.
Same with ?? sailing boats.
So seems correct as they state.

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warwickl said..
From memory of my windsurf days, low down haul for light winds and hard down haul for strong.
Same with ?? sailing boats.
So seems correct as they state.

Low PSI is floppy and spongy. You need rigidity to pump up with a gust, allowing you to translate a gust into power, drive and when on foil, ultimately height. You can spill off PSI to reduce being overpowered when up pressure. With yachting you're trimming head stay length more in the light. Giving more length and straightening the rig for more power, you'll still be using Cunningham to until you're getting prebend wrinkles upwind.

I'd say someone got their concepts backwards.

I agree with Kingcrash. I've had one of my wings slowly leak when I've been out in light conditions. It started off firm and I could easy pump the wing to get up and going. After 1/2 hr, the wing pressure was noticably softer (dropped from 6psi to about 4) and there was no way I could even get close to getting up and going. Slogged back in and pumped it back up to 6psi and got going again.

Hard for any wind. Less pressure = less stable & less power.

They would be windsurfers wrongly applying their knowledge of a different sport.

I don't think wings have evolved enough that there are different options on how to rig it up. One way suits all.
Contrast to windsurfing, more downhaul = loose leech which allows the sail to spill wind in strong conditions. And in kiting, longer front lines = larger angle of attack, so more power.

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martyj4 said..
I agree with Kingcrash. I've had one of my wings slowly leak when I've been out in light conditions. It started off firm and I could easy pump the wing to get up and going. After 1/2 hr, the wing pressure was noticably softer (dropped from 6psi to about 4) and there was no way I could even get close to getting up and going. Slogged back in and pumped it back up to 6psi and got going again.

Have had this happen before to me too. I think this simply solidifies the point. And for anyone who thinks otherwise, go put a pin prick in a non load bearing spot in a bladder and over a session you'll see it get harder and harder until you either won't get on foil, or won't get height.

You need a stiff luff to transfer power, the more spongy, the less power.

Possible exception are the first duotone echoes, not less pressure but less outhaul to bag out the wing for light air.
Kind of red herring, you ethier will be foiling, or if not enough wind or you're not a tech ace, you'll be slogging.

Balz Muller was in the video. In another forum a winger had used loads of makes and found in some pumping was more effective with lower pressures and with others less effective,

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patronus said..
Balz Muller was in the video. In another forum a winger had used loads of makes and found in some pumping was more effective with lower pressures and with others less effective,

I think the word 'lower' is quite representative here. Lower of 12 PSI to what? 7? Yeah - that'll still work well enough. 7 into 3? Nah no chance.
Again. Go put a pin prick or don't fully tighten the bladder value. Let me know how you go!

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King Crash said..

patronus said..
Balz Muller was in the video. In another forum a winger had used loads of makes and found in some pumping was more effective with lower pressures and with others less effective,

I think the word 'lower' is quite representative here. Lower of 12 PSI to what? 7? Yeah - that'll still work well enough. 7 into 3? Nah no chance.
Again. Go put a pin prick or don't fully tighten the bladder value. Let me know how you go!

He said 1 psi lower, so not a lot.

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warwickl said..
From memory of my windsurf days, low down haul for light winds and hard down haul for strong.
Same with ?? sailing boats.
So seems correct as they state.

Low down haul in a sail TIGHTENS the leach. Less wind spilled. A more punchy sail.

Less air pressure spills wind in a wing by allowing it to fold.

Aluula wings pump way, way, better because they are STIFFER.

Problem might be unique to that brand.

Pretty grey area lower pressure, size of rider etc,and how the heck are you going to get exact PSI pressure with all crappy gauges out there a under inflated wing is going to handle like crap too spongy no power back wind special IMO.Have a cpl of V2 Ensis and for me at 100 kg no way they are working better under inflated maybe for lighter rider but still doubt this good luck

Suggest the pressure range referred to is not that much.. My 6m s26 naish says 7-9 psi range.
In higher winds I pump to 9psi as this stops it flying fwd as much. At 7psi it can be a PITA when it flys over my head in higher gusty conditions. My conclusion is higher pressure holds more washout.. So moves centre of lift backwhich suits the hand positions better..
Skill level is low still in learning phase so I am sensitive to getting balance chucked out by wing..
Cheers AP

How about the pressure gauge is the outhaul.

I've had the Ensis 6.2m for a few months and at 85kg find towards the higher pressure end pumps up earlier

I've been riding Reedin (same designer same recommendations) since Dec 2021. I'm probably averaging 5-10 sessions a month. In light to moderate wind I inflate to 6.5-7lbs, as the wind gets stronger I go to 7.5. At 6.5-7 I have better low end at 7.5 the wing is more stable, points better, and feels faster at the high end.

Prior to this, I owned 2 Armstrong wings and the low end performance improved a bit on both after the canopy stretched a little. I mention this because I think a baggier wing (up to a point) makes getting on foil easier.

I agree that the concept appears to be similar to downhaul from windsurfing. Rigged this way, at 75kg, I can get on foil with a 4.7, HA925, and 69l board in 10-12kts of wind. While it may sound counterintuitive, when you have one of Damien's wings in your hands for a while, it's pretty clear to me that the lower pressure is the preferred for light wind.

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Oahuwaterwalker said..
I've been riding Reedin (same designer same recommendations) since Dec 2021. I'm probably averaging 5-10 sessions a month. In light to moderate wind I inflate to 6.5-7lbs, as the wind gets stronger I go to 7.5. At 6.5-7 I have better low end at 7.5 the wing is more stable, points better, and feels faster at the high end.

Prior to this, I owned 2 Armstrong wings and the low end performance improved a bit on both after the canopy stretched a little. I mention this because I think a baggier wing (up to a point) makes getting on foil easier.

I agree that the concept appears to be similar to downhaul from windsurfing. Rigged this way, at 75kg, I can get on foil with a 4.7, HA925, and 69l board in 10-12kts of wind. While it may sound counterintuitive, when you have one of Damien's wings in your hands for a while, it's pretty clear to me that the lower pressure is the preferred for light wind.

Why does it work like that? With Ensus 6.2m at low pressure all that pumping energy ends up in deforming the wing rather than lift and forward drive. Is there a change in technique?

Hi patronus,
Can you maybe post the link to the video discussed here?

I found it, should have searched before asking..


Thanks

I'll add before we close the book and get all certain about this that we are just a couple of years into this and most of us have not ridden more than 2-3 brands of wings and few have ridden them side by side in the same conditions with varying pressures. Most of the input here seems to be "I always do this one thing and it works." Or, "one time my wing broke."

I'll gently and respectfully add that maybe we could learn from the people who designed thes things and test them for months in various forms and conditions. This is actually what manufacturers do.

Or they could be wrong and just idiots. But I'll say that when I listen to the designers and industry people I've been lucky enough to meet and talk to, I learn things.

I still don't understand The Dart and yet it's some people's favorite wing. Some things are old evolutions we will grow out of of course but some things like "dropping one PSI in light wind on certain designs" might be worth investigating. What the hell do I know? But keep these threads going and we tend to learn. I thank you all for the input. I'm about to go ride a borrowed Ensis in light wind next week. If I get a chance I'll try this.

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surfcowboy said..
I'll add before we close the book and get all certain about this that we are just a couple of years into this and most of us have not ridden more than 2-3 brands of wings and few have ridden them side by side in the same conditions with varying pressures. Most of the input here seems to be "I always do this one thing and it works." Or, "one time my wing broke."

I'll gently and respectfully add that maybe we could learn from the people who designed thes things and test them for months in various forms and conditions. This is actually what manufacturers do.

Or they could be wrong and just idiots. But I'll say that when I listen to the designers and industry people I've been lucky enough to meet and talk to, I learn things.

I still don't understand The Dart and yet it's some people's favorite wing. Some things are old evolutions we will grow out of of course but some things like "dropping one PSI in light wind on certain designs" might be worth investigating. What the hell do I know? But keep these threads going and we tend to learn. I thank you all for the input. I'm about to go ride a borrowed Ensis in light wind next week. If I get a chance I'll try this.

I have tried 6.2m Ensis ant low pressure and find it pumps worse, as has a friend who has one and is far better than me. So maybe the relevant question is what is it in Balz's pump technique that makes a softer wing better?

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patronus said..

Oahuwaterwalker said..
I've been riding Reedin (same designer same recommendations) since Dec 2021. I'm probably averaging 5-10 sessions a month. In light to moderate wind I inflate to 6.5-7lbs, as the wind gets stronger I go to 7.5. At 6.5-7 I have better low end at 7.5 the wing is more stable, points better, and feels faster at the high end.

Prior to this, I owned 2 Armstrong wings and the low end performance improved a bit on both after the canopy stretched a little. I mention this because I think a baggier wing (up to a point) makes getting on foil easier.

I agree that the concept appears to be similar to downhaul from windsurfing. Rigged this way, at 75kg, I can get on foil with a 4.7, HA925, and 69l board in 10-12kts of wind. While it may sound counterintuitive, when you have one of Damien's wings in your hands for a while, it's pretty clear to me that the lower pressure is the preferred for light wind.

Why does it work like that? With Ensus 6.2m at low pressure all that pumping energy ends up in deforming the wing rather than lift and forward drive. Is there a change in technique?

I reached out to Damien and here's what he said, "My idea of getting lightly lower inflation pressure for light wind is because our wings are quite stiff. Having a little less pressure allows for more flex and reflex when you pump and, in light wind, the reduced stiffness won't impact your ride once you're on foil. This really only works with stiff wings. At 6psi, our wings are already a lot stiffer than some other wings at full pressure."

(I wrote this before hearing back from Damien) Personal and anecdotally, I was also of the understanding that a stiffer wing would = better low end. I started winging on an Armstrong 4.5 V1 and after a few months picked up a V2 (stiffer) and was disappointed that it didn't have the same low end as my slightly bagged out V1. When I switched to Reedin Wings, like others, I wondered why they recommended less pressure for better low end. After riding these wings a lot over the last 9 months, all I can say is that there is a noticeable difference between higher pressure and lower pressure when it comes to getting on foil. Low being better. Once on foil or in higher wind, I think the wing performs better with more pressure. If you look at the guys windsurf foiling, they are doing this with their sails by adding cleats and rigging lines that they can tighten once up on foil. I'm guessing its the same principle at work. I've windsurfed for 40 years and can definitely attest that a baggier sail is what you want when the winds are light.

Now, I'll add this... the difference isn't huge, but IMHO its there.

Windfoilers use less downhaul in light wind which tightens the top of the sail. So I'm unsure if it really is equivalent unless you can adjust strut and LE separately.

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Grantmac said..
Windfoilers use less downhaul in light wind which tightens the top of the sail. So I'm unsure if it really is equivalent unless you can adjust strut and LE separately.

100% and it also deepens the pocket around the boom area. The way the windsurf sail analogy applies in my mind is that you rig a baggier sail (with tight leach) to grab more wind. To your point, with wing foiling all you do with a softer wing is add more "pocket." Perhaps the leech factor makes this analogy not quite the right one...

All this said, I trust Damien's experience and intention as a designer and I know that my personal experience with Reedin wings (Superwing v1, v2, and Superwing X)supports what he claims. If it helps for others to understand my wind/water sport experience, I'm 51 and have been windsurfing since I was 7, also kited for 15+ years (I've also done a number of other surf sports for decades). For a period of time I had several sponsors for both sports. I've lived in hawaii for 25 years and that has given me the opportunity to spend a lot of time on the water. Like most of us, I'm relatively new to winging (started in Feb 2021 so 19-20 months). Living where I do, I've averaged 5-10 sessions per month over that time (sometimes more). I share this because someone mentioned often we don't know the actual experience of the people posting. It is not my intention to imply in any way that this negates the experience of other people who don't share my experience. I'm guessing weight of rider and other factors could have an influence on this.

At the end of the day, my perspective is just one persons experience.

I agree. I just think that it's going to be very wing specific (as was discussed) and maybe specific to how that wing is designed to manage it's draft.
Having some spring does seem like it would help pumping. I also think that rigid handles are a huge deal for pumping although the CWC would make that seem irrelevant. Maybe only for wings that require a high pumping cadence?

I do recommended pressure in light and medium winds, and go a pound or so lower in strong winds to dampen the wing and lessen the chances of blowing my leading edge.

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Oahuwaterwalker said..

I reached out to Damien and here's what he said, "My idea of getting lightly lower inflation pressure for light wind is because our wings are quite stiff. Having a little less pressure allows for more flex and reflex when you pump and,

Interesting, but I still don't understand why flex and reflex are a good thing when pumping Is it the wing gets into a rythym of tips going out when pulled towards you then spring inwards increasing camber/draft?

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patronus said..

Oahuwaterwalker said..

I reached out to Damien and here's what he said, "My idea of getting lightly lower inflation pressure for light wind is because our wings are quite stiff. Having a little less pressure allows for more flex and reflex when you pump and,

Interesting, but I still don't understand why flex and reflex are a good thing when pumping Is it the wing gets into a rythym of tips going out when pulled towards you then spring inwards increasing camber/draft?

I had not thought of the "rhythm" but I think you may have captured it. Specifically when I get a pump going that builds apparent wind there is something of a rhythm that gets going. In addition, the stiff handles (as mentioned earlier) allow you to work the wing without loosing power from handles flopping.