There is a lot of hype about narrow boards at the moment. Are narrow boards really easier to pump than wide ones? Wide boards are more stable in the water and therefore easier to pump. Narrow glide easier.
What do you all mean? All marketing?

Do you mean downwind boards? Yes they are outrageously better and easier to get going in lightwinds. I barely even bother pumping mine because it doesn't need speed to get up an over its own bow wave. It's a displacement hull so it starts flying immediately when the foil is ready. I consider it the biggest innovation in the sport, comparable in importance to how SLE (bow) kites changed kiting, or harnesses and footstraps changed windsurfing.

Yes, the downwind boards nearly don't need any wind to get going. Quite unbelievable actually. 1870 cm2 foil in the beginning and then quite a bit smaller one 834 cm2, 4.6 m2 wing, first day trying a 95 L downwind board.

There's no question for DW boards!
No, I am talking about normal wingboards. For example Armstrongs new FG is now much narrower. Naish for example choosing the other way. I'm talking about normal wind conditions. Not low wind!

It's not marketing hype.

I used to wing 5'0 x 27. Then went to 5'5 x 23.5, then went to 5'5 x 21.5. Huge improvement. Wide wing boards will go away.

I'm still yet to see anyone on a 5'6 x 19 wide or abouts board in choppy conditions.
all the vids are in glassy cross off waves where they are great. I'm super keen to try a 5'6 x 19 70L but not got any spare money at moment. I've asked on all the forums for feedback on this size board but no one has anything? if you have video using one in choppy confused sea state with waves please post ??

I am 200 lbs.. i use a 105 not so narrow board for when wind dies which happens a reasonable amount here in alaska.. I assume it could be trickier to stand on slogging back.. but maybe that is all made up for by the fact it is so much easier to get up on foil with? How many liters and what shape/board maker/model would be recommended for me as an all around board that also gets up easy in low wind.. best to wait a year or two for design changes?

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FrozenGamer said..
I am 200 lbs.. i use a 105 not so narrow board for when wind dies which happens a reasonable amount here in alaska.. I assume it could be trickier to stand on slogging back.. but maybe that is all made up for by the fact it is so much easier to get up on foil with? How many liters and what shape/board maker/model would be recommended for me as an all around board that also gets up easy in low wind.. best to wait a year or two for design changes?

I'm 93 kg and looking at a narrow around 70L board as a 1 board quiver instead of currently running a 5'3 x 23 83L & 4'9 x 22 65L much thinner. For sure you can replace your 105 with a 5'6 - 6' x 22 or 23 around 90- 100L which will definitely get going easier and still float enough to slog back. No need for any board to be over 23 wide but I'm really interested in going to 19 or 20 but worried about thickness as my thinner 65 is way more responsive than my thicker 83

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leepasty said..
I'm still yet to see anyone on a 5'6 x 19 wide or abouts board in choppy conditions.
all the vids are in glassy cross off waves where they are great. I'm super keen to try a 5'6 x 19 70L but not got any spare money at moment. I've asked on all the forums for feedback on this size board but no one has anything? if you have video using one in choppy confused sea state with waves please post ??

Not 5'6 but I've got a 6'6 by 18 3/4, 112L, 90kg. I've used it in surf with short chop running across fair swell, it works as you'd expect. The length pitches more often and the thickness looses a lot of the feel of what the foil is doing. Its not any harder to stand on in a given sea state than my small board once moving.

I've only kept hold of it for the very odd day where I'm down winding a stretch that has very few opt out points or very light winds with perfect conditions. I think the advantage of the low end is maybe 3 knots worth of wind with the same 850cm2 and 5m wing that id use on the 70. It does pump into waves/swell very early mind so will get you up earlier in that sense.


Your 100% right about thickness, its not ever mentioned from what I've read. It just kills it for me. Id rather be on my Rocket s 70 in almost all conditions.

I ride a 5'5" 17 inches wide as my main board, 75 liters with much earlier takeoff than my 75 liter Armstrong FG, but also much much less stable. Not an issue for me once I figured it out but probably a challenge for less experienced wingers. The jump down from 95 to 75 on DW style shapes is enormous.

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PointOmega said..
I ride a 5'5" 17 inches wide as my main board, 75 liters with much earlier takeoff than my 75 liter Armstrong FG, but also much much less stable. Not an issue for me once I figured it out but probably a challenge for less experienced wingers. The jump down from 95 to 75 on DW style shapes is enormous.

Cool how thick is it? any video of riding in choppy waves? thanks

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PointOmega said..
I ride a 5'5" 17 inches wide as my main board, 75 liters with much earlier takeoff than my 75 liter Armstrong FG, but also much much less stable. Not an issue for me once I figured it out but probably a challenge for less experienced wingers. The jump down from 95 to 75 on DW style shapes is enormous.

Which board are you riding?

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Glide Pilot said..

leepasty said..
I'm still yet to see anyone on a 5'6 x 19 wide or abouts board in choppy conditions.
all the vids are in glassy cross off waves where they are great. I'm super keen to try a 5'6 x 19 70L but not got any spare money at moment. I've asked on all the forums for feedback on this size board but no one has anything? if you have video using one in choppy confused sea state with waves please post ??

Not 5'6 but I've got a 6'6 by 18 3/4, 112L, 90kg. I've used it in surf with short chop running across fair swell, it works as you'd expect. The length pitches more often and the thickness looses a lot of the feel of what the foil is doing. Its not any harder to stand on in a given sea state than my small board once moving.

I've only kept hold of it for the very odd day where I'm down winding a stretch that has very few opt out points or very light winds with perfect conditions. I think the advantage of the low end is maybe 3 knots worth of wind with the same 850cm2 and 5m wing that id use on the 70. It does pump into waves/swell very early mind so will get you up earlier in that sense.


Your 100% right about thickness, its not ever mentioned from what I've read. It just kills it for me. Id rather be on my Rocket s 70 in almost all conditions.

thickness of the board you loose the Feelmof what the foil is doing.

never heard that one but it does kind of make sense.

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leepasty said..
I'm still yet to see anyone on a 5'6 x 19 wide or abouts board in choppy conditions.
all the vids are in glassy cross off waves where they are great. I'm super keen to try a 5'6 x 19 70L but not got any spare money at moment. I've asked on all the forums for feedback on this size board but no one has anything? if you have video using one in choppy confused sea state with waves please post ??

I have a 5'10" x 20.5" and it's fantastic in choppy wave conditions, easier to get up and less nose digging in on takeoff. The only thing I have found that's a little more difficult is slogging while kneeling, everything else is easier or the same as a 5' board of the same volume.

Don't overlook that being narrow is just one aspect of the much-liked downwind boards. Many downwind boards also have a very "pointy", wave-piercing nose, and very similar tail. That's a very important part why the downwind boards can pick up speed much more easily than short, fat shapes.

Think of this as pushing the board through the water from the back, with someone standing on it. Basically, you need to push the water around, and the effort required will depend on (a) the projected area, as seen from the front, and (b) the "aerodynamics" of the shape - basically, a friction coefficient. Making the board narrower reduces the projected area proportionally, so you may need about 1/4 to 1/2 less "push" from that alone, depending on which widths you compare. The nose and tail shape reduce the friction coefficient, probably by at least a similar amount. So to get the board to accelerate to, say, 3 or 4 knots, you need only a fraction of the power than a short, fat board requires. Once you get into this speed range, the shape difference comes into place in an additional way, since you are approaching the hull speed (which depends only on board length). A "classical" shape at hull speed has to climb up the bow wave, going into semi-planing and then planing mode. This is literally an uphill battle that requires a lot of energy. The wave-piercing shape of the nose of a downwind board instead pierces the wave, allowing the board to gain more speed much more easily.

One way to feel the difference is by driving on a highway, rolling the window down, and putting your hand out of the window. Have it vertically first (thumb up), then turn it sideways (thumb forward). You'll feel a difference in how much the induced wind pushes on your hand that's similar to the difference between a classical and a downwind foil board shape.

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leepasty said..
I'm still yet to see anyone on a 5'6 x 19 wide or abouts board in choppy conditions.
all the vids are in glassy cross off waves where they are great. I'm super keen to try a 5'6 x 19 70L but not got any spare money at moment. I've asked on all the forums for feedback on this size board but no one has anything? if you have video using one in choppy confused sea state with waves please post ??

You do the stink bug thing to avoid falling off. Once standing, the boards glide so fast, they are stable right away.

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leepasty said..
I'm still yet to see anyone on a 5'6 x 19 wide or abouts board in choppy conditions.
all the vids are in glassy cross off waves where they are great. I'm super keen to try a 5'6 x 19 70L but not got any spare money at moment. I've asked on all the forums for feedback on this size board but no one has anything? if you have video using one in choppy confused sea state with waves please post ??

In my spot - open ocean with a lot of chop and confused swell - most transitioned to narrow boards for all conditions. I am heavy - 94kg - so I am on "wider" boards. For light wind 6'2x20 for stronger winds 5'4x21.5. Lighter (and better guys) are on 17-19 wide boards of various lengths (5-6) no matter how messy the water surface is.

I have many wing boards 93L 5'4" x 27.5", 74L 5' x 25.5" 25.5", and 72L 4'9" x 24.8" The narrower is easier to take off in light wind regardless of the volume. My weight is 74kg.

I have DW board 103L 7'2" x 18" this one is mind-blowing. the first time I tried it in about 10kt in a choppy sea, the balance in a choppy sea is not that hard for winging. You have the wing to assist. It took me less than 5 minutes to get familiar with the starting process. It takes little wind to get moving so in 10kt you really don't need to pump to take off. And you can paddle 2x faster when the wind drops.

And in choppy conditions with light wind. DW board can cut through chop with less braking effect and less fall from the swell hitting you so you can take off faster in that condition.

I will never buy a board wider than 20".

So any video of someone riding a negative volume something like 5'6 x 19 70L for 90 kg guy in choppy confused water? still only seen big plus volume boards in smooth water, if they are do good someone must have video of how easy to get on and take off

My 5'5" 17 wide is 6 1/8' thick. Amos Sultan wing, stock. I don't have video of myself on it but, honestly, I haven't noticed any issues in confused choppy conditions due to shape itself beyond inherent instability of the narrow width. Once up on foil it doesn't make a difference to me.

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PointOmega said..
My 5'5" 17 wide is 6 1/8' thick. Amos Sultan wing, stock. I don't have video of myself on it but, honestly, I haven't noticed any issues in confused choppy conditions due to shape itself beyond inherent instability of the narrow width. Once up on foil it doesn't make a difference to me.

Very interested in that board...if I had to buy something right now, that would be my pick (but still not sure what size to go for)...

Can you say more about why you chose it and what you think of it?

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PointOmega said..
My 5'5" 17 wide is 6 1/8' thick. Amos Sultan wing, stock. I don't have video of myself on it but, honestly, I haven't noticed any issues in confused choppy conditions due to shape itself beyond inherent instability of the narrow width. Once up on foil it doesn't make a difference to me.

Saw Tom Earls one couple weeks ago, really light but very thick, he likes it for winging but he is light about 62kg and only wings a spot with not much chop,
still yet to see any vid or pics of one in messy chop mixed with big waves like we ride ?

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leepasty said..
So any video of someone riding a negative volume something like 5'6 x 19 70L for 90 kg guy in choppy confused water? still only seen big plus volume boards in smooth water, if they are do good someone must have video of how easy to get on and take off

If you can use sinker so it means you have pretty good power so the board efficiency is not that important.
But I still think narrower and longer wing board still has some advantage but not as much as in light condition. And the cons may outweighs the pros in this situation for some use case.

I don't see the point anyone will riding long DW sinker in powered up condition. But I guess it is not harder than traditional sinker.

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boardsurfr said..
Don't overlook that being narrow is just one aspect of the much-liked downwind boards. Many downwind boards also have a very "pointy", wave-piercing nose, and very similar tail. That's a very important part why the downwind boards can pick up speed much more easily than short, fat shapes.

Think of this as pushing the board through the water from the back, with someone standing on it. Basically, you need to push the water around, and the effort required will depend on (a) the projected area, as seen from the front, and (b) the "aerodynamics" of the shape - basically, a friction coefficient. Making the board narrower reduces the projected area proportionally, so you may need about 1/4 to 1/2 less "push" from that alone, depending on which widths you compare. The nose and tail shape reduce the friction coefficient, probably by at least a similar amount. So to get the board to accelerate to, say, 3 or 4 knots, you need only a fraction of the power than a short, fat board requires. Once you get into this speed range, the shape difference comes into place in an additional way, since you are approaching the hull speed (which depends only on board length). A "classical" shape at hull speed has to climb up the bow wave, going into semi-planing and then planing mode. This is literally an uphill battle that requires a lot of energy. The wave-piercing shape of the nose of a downwind board instead pierces the wave, allowing the board to gain more speed much more easily.

One way to feel the difference is by driving on a highway, rolling the window down, and putting your hand out of the window. Have it vertically first (thumb up), then turn it sideways (thumb forward). You'll feel a difference in how much the induced wind pushes on your hand that's similar to the difference between a classical and a downwind foil board shape.

One thing with the pointy nose I hadn't considered is how it touches down. If I'm going fast and nose down (by error) the nose penetrates so deep into the water. My wider flatter nose won't go in and I can recover. How a board crashes is not a primary concern but it sure is a new and magnificent way to wipe out.

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Taeyeony said..

leepasty said..
So any video of someone riding a negative volume something like 5'6 x 19 70L for 90 kg guy in choppy confused water? still only seen big plus volume boards in smooth water, if they are do good someone must have video of how easy to get on and take off

If you can use sinker so it means you have pretty good power so the board efficiency is not that important.
But I still think narrower and longer wing board still has some advantage but not as much as in light condition. And the cons may outweighs the pros in this situation for some use case.

I don't see the point anyone will riding long DW sinker in powered up condition. But I guess it is not harder than traditional sinker.

I'm not meaning full sinker thinking going 5'6 or 5'8 x 19 or 20, 70-80L instead of having a 5'3 x 23 83L and a 4'9 x 22 65L. narrow is so much better in waves but also I really notice the improved feeling when I drop down to my 65L which is a inch thinner than my 83. my custom 83 is pretty good but wondering if can somehow get a 1 board quiver by going bit longer and narrower ?

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Seastudent said..
One thing with the pointy nose I hadn't considered is how it touches down. If I'm going fast and nose down (by error) the nose penetrates so deep into the water. My wider flatter nose won't go in and I can recover. How a board crashes is not a primary concern but it sure is a new and magnificent way to wipe out.

I just switched foils, and was quite disappointed that when any overfoiling led to a nose-dive crash. On the foils I had used before switching, I was able to recover from most overfoils. But then, I remembered that it had taken quite a while to reach this point on the old foils. And sure enough, in the 3rd or 4th session on the new foil, I started to recover from overfoiling, too. Unless you're one the few who learn and adapt very quickly, it takes a few sessions to adjust to new gear. Regression is an essential part of learning...

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leepasty said..
So any video of someone riding a negative volume something like 5'6 x 19 70L for 90 kg guy in choppy confused water? still only seen big plus volume boards in smooth water, if they are do good someone must have video of how easy to get on and take off

Lee, you live in Cornwall, on a bad day its still cleaner as in the netherlands where I live. To giveyou an idea, we call 6sec a long swell period and often its easier to watch at the waveperiod in meters between them instead of secconds. There is reason I have been dozens at times to
Cornwall.But back on topic: This is shot by a friend of me earlier this year:

www.facebook.com/edwin.vansanten/videos/600716924819062
Im the one with the white/green cabrinha.

I,m 95-100kg depending on time of the year and riding most of the time a KT5.4x22x56lThat isnt 19 wide but I rode a custom from a buddy that is 20 wide and doesnt start balance wise really differently as the KT.
imo a LOT of stability comes from the length of these boards and for me personally that is way more helpfull as width.To get started I do,nt need more wind as with my 90l 5.6x27 so I use it with 5.5 to 3m wings.The biggest difference is that because of the low volume I can,t slog on the KT. So i have to stand up, give a few pumps and get on the foil (or sink ) where I can slog a bit on the 90l.A friend of me has the yellow Fanatic 75l 4ft something and we both agreed that the KT was uicker on the plane and easier to start as his yellow thick wide but short board while he was running a bigger foil.

If My 5.6x27x90l ever give up I replaced with something alike the Sunova Carver: 6.2x20x95l.

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Jeroensurf said..

leepasty said..
So any video of someone riding a negative volume something like 5'6 x 19 70L for 90 kg guy in choppy confused water? still only seen big plus volume boards in smooth water, if they are do good someone must have video of how easy to get on and take off

Lee, you live in Cornwall, on a bad day its still more clean as in the netherlands where I live.This is shot by a friend of me earlier this year:

www.facebook.com/edwin.vansanten/videos/600716924819062
Im the one with the white/green cabrinha.

I,m 95-100kg depending on time of the year and riding most of the time a KT5.4x22x56lThat isnt 19 wide but I rode a custom from a buddy that is 20 wide and doesnt start balance wise really differently as the KT.
imo a LOT of stability comes from the length of these boards and for me personally that is way more helpfull as width.To get started I do,nt need more wind as with my 90l 5.6x27 so I use it with 5.5 to 3m wings.The biggest difference is that because of the low volume I can,t slog on the KT. So i have to stand up, give a few pumps and get on the foil (or sink ) where I can slog a bit on the 90l.A friend of me has the yellow Fanatic 75l 4ft something and we both agreed that the KT was uicker on the plane and easier to start as his yellow thick wide but short board while he was running a bigger foil.
S
If My 5.6x27x90l ever give up I replaced with something alike the Sunova Carver: 6.2x20x95l.

Yeah your vid is more like I'm looking to see on these skinny boards but never seen anyone riding one in that sea state. My main wing spot is similar chop to that also bigger waves mixed in and our main problem is ****ty wind so need some float as gusts are small patches so if take too long to get board to surface gust has gone before get on foil which is what would happen if I only had the 65L on 70% of days as I sink past my waist. I might just get one made, almost went bit longer and narrower on my green 83 but chickened out last min as this was before all the talk of longer boards and before the downwind craze

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leepasty said..

Taeyeony said..

leepasty said..
So any video of someone riding a negative volume something like 5'6 x 19 70L for 90 kg guy in choppy confused water? still only seen big plus volume boards in smooth water, if they are do good someone must have video of how easy to get on and take off

If you can use sinker so it means you have pretty good power so the board efficiency is not that important.
But I still think narrower and longer wing board still has some advantage but not as much as in light condition. And the cons may outweighs the pros in this situation for some use case.

I don't see the point anyone will riding long DW sinker in powered up condition. But I guess it is not harder than traditional sinker.

I'm not meaning full sinker thinking going 5'6 or 5'8 x 19 or 20, 70-80L instead of having a 5'3 x 23 83L and a 4'9 x 22 65L. narrow is so much better in waves but also I really notice the improved feeling when I drop down to my 65L which is a inch thinner than my 83. my custom 83 is pretty good but wondering if can somehow get a 1 board quiver by going bit longer and narrower ?

My board is 80L, I'm 94kg so it's a semi-sinker for me. If I have any breeze at all, it's at the surface, but if it's totally dead, wing dropping I sink past my knees. I went with boxy hard rails to maximize planing surface and volume forward, I really like how this works both on takeoff and hard splashdowns/recoveries. In the past my boards have all had bevel or soft rails forward, the hard edges make a lot less fuss and still don't catch.

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leepasty said..
Yeah your vid is more like I'm looking to see on these skinny boards but never seen anyone riding one in that sea state. My main wing spot is similar chop to that also bigger waves mixed in and our main problem is ****ty wind so need some float as gusts are small patches so if take too long to get board to surface gust has gone before get on foil which is what would happen if I only had the 65L on 70% of days as I sink past my waist. I might just get one made, almost went bit longer and narrower on my green 83 but chickened out last min as this was before all the talk of longer boards and before the downwind craze

That is the condition I ride in Phuket in the rainy season. Choppy sea with light and inconsistent wind.

In that condition, I think a chopped DW board (Wing specific) like Amos Sultan Wing or Sunova Carver with volume about your kg will do the magic.

Don't worry too much about the board length. the foil track is moved forward and the board length in front of you is not too long and partially counter-weighted by the board volume in the back of the mast.

This kind of board accelerates to take off speed very fast and doesn't slow down as much as the wider board when hitting the wave while still on the water. So you can take off in short gusts with less pumping. There will be a little roll instability when the board is not moving due to its width but with little forward speed, the foil will stabilize the board. You will get used to it in no time.

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Taeyeony said..
I don't see the point anyone will riding long DW sinker in powered up condition. But I guess it is not harder than traditional sinker.

I have read some riders saying that it allows them to reduce a lots the wing (sail) and wing (foil) sizes, they do not need anymore the extra bit of power and lift to take off, and can focus on performance in flight.