Google bike countersteer.

Is strange on a bike even though you don't realise you are doing it you are. Once you learn about it you do it on purpose and turn better.

I think this works on foil as well. You yaw ( twist) the board left board banks right and you turn right.

Works great with wider wings to turn tighter.

Thoughts?

On aircraft, and with foils you get an effect called "Adverse Yaw", where an attempt to roll induces a yaw in the opposite direction. I'm not sure if it's exactly what goes on when foiling, as with aircraft it's caused by the ailerons used to roll the aircraft.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adverse_yaw

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Steven F said..
Is strange on a bike even though you don't realise you are doing it you are. Once you learn about it you do it on purpose and turn better. I think this works on foil as well. You yaw (twist) the board left board banks right and you turn right.

You are right about the counter-stirring and this this is the same thing as on the bike... everyone is already doing it even if they do not notice. This has 3 implications on the material if you want a lively foil:
1 - You do not want any vertical rudder at the back of your foil, e.g. old naish foils and to some extent current axis foils
2 - You want the fuselage as short as possible and the stab as small as possible
3 - You want the mast as close as possible to the front wing; ideally right on top of it :)

All these aspect affect your capacity to yaw (twist) and if you cannot twist you are stuck on a straight line.

In aviation it's referred to as overbanking tendency. The wing on the outside of the turn is prescribing a larger arc and therefore moving faster than the inside wing. Since it's moving faster it has more lift and wants to roll more. You have to counteract with opposite control. Ailerons in a plane and body lean on foil. It is as goofy as countersteer on a bike but just as necessary. Like you said we just do it but the why can help it click. I fall off a lot to the inside of a jibe because I didn't correct enough.

In aviation it's referred to as overbanking tendency. The wing on the outside of the turn is prescribing a larger arc and therefore moving faster than the inside wing. Since it's moving faster it has more lift and wants to roll more. You have to counteract with opposite control. Ailerons in a plane and body lean on foil. It is as goofy as countersteer on a bike but just as necessary. Like you said we just do it but the why can help it click. I fall off a lot to the inside of a jibe because I didn't correct enough.

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Seastudent said..
I fall off a lot to the inside of a jibe because I didn't correct enough.

whaaaaat.? I do this a lot, too, so can you please elaborate on the correction? It sounds like I should be trying to slide the tail?

Oho yeah! On wing my counter steer before gybe is almost comically exaggerated, its part of my signature.

This is its own style though, really demands a less stable foil that you can pivot to kick out, start falling into the turn, then steer the foil to catch yourself before you hit the water. I feel like a flat tail with no "rudder" is important but 2nd to mast position. I like my mast forward, like really forward in a specific spot. It can't be anywhere else, going so far as to tune my foil for mast position. For foils like GoFoil (and i presume axis - never ridden) it requires some massive shimming to turn them into a "forward placement" foil.

The opposite style is "leading with the body", kind of reaching out forward to initiate turns, really tight, composed, telegraphing things farther ahead. I think for big, powerful, clean conditions this is better, more controlled. If i'm being critical of myself Iprobablyend up here when the heat is on, its kind of a safety stance i revert to when it gets heavy and I'm on a kind of twitchy foil that doesn't want to accommodate which isn't ideal.

For wing i think its valuable from a tune perspective - in order to get those foils farther forward you usually end up tuning to a faster more efficient tail shim, leading with footwork keeps the upper body more independent for what your doing with the wing. I think its amazing in those bumpy lumpy choppy conditions cause you can just bounce from chop to chop and play with that energy in a really dynamic way. I think it maybe lets me leech a bit of extra energy out of those conditions vs just plowing through it all. Also that more efficient tune is valuable in the weak stuff.

Maybe a downside to the tune - you've got this faster more efficient tune so speed builds faster forcing you to revert to that "safety" style earlier. I don't know just spit balling here.

In realty i think we're all on a spectrum between these two approaches, i tend to lean towards the one side. Nothing wrong with the other.

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TooMuchEpoxy said..
Oho yeah! On wing my counter steer before gybe is almost comically exaggerated, its part of my signature.

This is its own style though, really demands a less stable foil that you can pivot to kick out, start falling into the turn, then steer the foil to catch yourself before you hit the water. I feel like a flat tail with no "rudder" is important but 2nd to mast position. I like my mast forward, like really forward in a specific spot. It can't be anywhere else, going so far as to tune my foil for mast position. For foils like GoFoil (and i presume axis - never ridden) it requires some massive shimming to turn them into a "forward placement" foil.

The opposite style is "leading with the body", kind of reaching out forward to initiate turns, really tight, composed, telegraphing things farther ahead. I think for big, powerful, clean conditions this is better, more controlled. If i'm being critical of myself Iprobablyend up here when the heat is on, its kind of a safety stance i revert to when it gets heavy and I'm on a kind of twitchy foil that doesn't want to accommodate which isn't ideal.

For wing i think its valuable from a tune perspective - in order to get those foils farther forward you usually end up tuning to a faster more efficient tail shim, leading with footwork keeps the upper body more independent for what your doing with the wing. I think its amazing in those bumpy lumpy choppy conditions cause you can just bounce from chop to chop and play with that energy in a really dynamic way. I think it maybe lets me leech a bit of extra energy out of those conditions vs just plowing through it all. Also that more efficient tune is valuable in the weak stuff.

Maybe a downside to the tune - you've got this faster more efficient tune so speed builds faster forcing you to revert to that "safety" style earlier. I don't know just spit balling here.

In realty i think we're all on a spectrum between these two approaches, i tend to lean towards the one side. Nothing wrong with the other.

Do you have a video showing what you are doing?

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tangogeoff said..

Seastudent said..
I fall off a lot to the inside of a jibe because I didn't correct enough.

whaaaaat.? I do this a lot, too, so can you please elaborate on the correction? It sounds like I should be trying to slide the tail?

I don't think about trying to slide the tail. I think the yaw seems to work itself out. I try to initiate some roll to start the turn. Once the turn is established you reduce the roll or put in opposite lean to keep it from overbanking. I kind of think of it is starting the roll out portion of the maneuver almost the second you achieve you're desired bank angle. If you just keep the input constant it will want to bank more and voila, you're in the drink on the inside of the turn.

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Rodskeg said..

TooMuchEpoxy said..
Oho yeah! On wing my counter steer before gybe is almost comically exaggerated, its part of my signature.

This is its own style though, really demands a less stable foil that you can pivot to kick out, start falling into the turn, then steer the foil to catch yourself before you hit the water. I feel like a flat tail with no "rudder" is important but 2nd to mast position. I like my mast forward, like really forward in a specific spot. It can't be anywhere else, going so far as to tune my foil for mast position. For foils like GoFoil (and i presume axis - never ridden) it requires some massive shimming to turn them into a "forward placement" foil.

The opposite style is "leading with the body", kind of reaching out forward to initiate turns, really tight, composed, telegraphing things farther ahead. I think for big, powerful, clean conditions this is better, more controlled. If i'm being critical of myself Iprobablyend up here when the heat is on, its kind of a safety stance i revert to when it gets heavy and I'm on a kind of twitchy foil that doesn't want to accommodate which isn't ideal.

For wing i think its valuable from a tune perspective - in order to get those foils farther forward you usually end up tuning to a faster more efficient tail shim, leading with footwork keeps the upper body more independent for what your doing with the wing. I think its amazing in those bumpy lumpy choppy conditions cause you can just bounce from chop to chop and play with that energy in a really dynamic way. I think it maybe lets me leech a bit of extra energy out of those conditions vs just plowing through it all. Also that more efficient tune is valuable in the weak stuff.

Maybe a downside to the tune - you've got this faster more efficient tune so speed builds faster forcing you to revert to that "safety" style earlier. I don't know just spit balling here.

In realty i think we're all on a spectrum between these two approaches, i tend to lean towards the one side. Nothing wrong with the other.

Do you have a video showing what you are doing?

Is this what y'all are talking about? Pretty established in the prone world. Watch the first turn here, he initiates the turn in the opposite direction, 'setting the foil' in the correct bank angle.
www.instagram.com/reel/ChCy1TvAKWM/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==