Does the benefit of a carbon mast outweigh the cost???

Are they fragile ???Or would a mug like me not notice any real improvement????thx

It depends on what carbon mast and what you are comparing it to.. But it's my experience that you will notice a slight increase in stiffness and they are not fragile at all.. In my opinion they are worth the benefit if you can afford the extra cost..

yep

oops

Thanks for your time and effort in replying

I need to try and borrow a carbon or a composite mast to really tell.

I'ma self funded retiree,so I need to make an informed choice

Does anyone know if Naish are bringing out new gear soon????DJ.

For me by far the greatest benefit of carbon is the lack of corrosion. I started foiling in 2015 and spent a lot of time and effort dealing with corrosion and seized bolts and all the rest. There were even some warranty replacements.

Admittedly the newer aluminium masts have much better coatings and Tefgel makes a difference (although that can be messy too). I was surprised to look back on my records and see I only did 70 hours on my aluminium foil. There was a lot of messing around sealing it and cleaning off corrosion and painting and stuff.

I switched to carbon in 2016 and have had zero problems since. My most used mast has just under 900 hours on it. It's still pristine.

I've never had to repair a mast. I regularly ride into the sandy bottom with no damage. Not so good running into reefs.

I've done a fair bit of repairing to foils, particularly the tips and a few chips in the leading edge. Apart from using epoxy and carbon doing repairs is almost as easy a repairing polyester surfboards. You just have to prepare it properly and weigh the epoxy and hardener accurately. Epoxy paste will fill/fix even quite serious damage.

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Dick Tatta said..
Thanks for your time and effort in replying

I need to try and borrow a carbon or a composite mast to really tell.

I'ma self funded retiree,so I need to make an informed choice

Does anyone know if Naish are bringing out new gear soon????DJ.

Not all carbon are stiff, my Armstrong is flexible, so you can't always transfer conclusions between brands or between models of same brand. My previous Naish ally was stiff but corroded to break as did everyone else's here

Topic pops-up now and then.
It's all about trade-offs, imho. If you look at the high end carbon masts there's no doubt they perform better at their disciplin then the standard aluminium masts. But you can buy 10 alu-mast and some beers for the prize of 1 high end carbon.
If you're light weight and just into mowing the lawn at 15 knots on a mid aspect 1000/1200 front wing there's probably not much difference. If your > 100kg and want to ride large wingspan, pump and jump, there's not many aluminium mast that'll last you 1 season.

Some shapes requires a lot of carbon to reach similar properties compared to aluminium (check project Cedrus for mast / mastbase and interview with balz muller on Sabfoil's choice to keep fuselages aluminium)

i think the answer about cost vs benefit is a debatable one

- Someone i ride with has bent 4 Alu masts, so carbon makes sense for him
- Light riders who are just blasting back forth with med wings might not have the same challenges

And all carbon masts are not the same....i know a few people who bought carbon masts (v1) and felt they were too bendy...lighter riders may not notice this.

People are typically always very positive about their recent purchases - recency bias and spend guilt, haha
I am going to go slightly against that grain here a little....i have ridden Axis 90cm Alu for 2 years and recently bought their HM carbon
its only 50g lighter than the Alu...but looks beautiful and no doodad adapter etc.
BUT did it feel 15 x better than the Alu? Was it a game changer?
No - it feels solid. But it didnt blow my mind / make me ride like Titouan ....Sadly it doesn matter how much money i spend on carbon its not a substitute for time on water or talent!

i need to ride the Alu again to see if i can feel any difference - could be that it feels terrible now!

Northy1 raises a lot of good points that I agree with. Depending on your weight, style, and skill, and on the particular masts your comparing, the answer could go either way. My (light weight) wife is perfectly happy on a carbon mast that many heavier wingers have complained about (to the point of switching brands). I'm perfectly happy winging on an alu mast. I'm on a huge fat foil and going slow. I liked the same mast when I started windfoiling, but once I switched to faster foils (with a sail), that mast clearly became a limiting factor. A decent (but not top end) carbon mast made a huge difference with the faster foils for me. With winging, I'm just approaching the point were faster wings become interesting, and I won't be surprised if that a carbon mast will work better.

Point worth mentioning is safety. I bought a 90cm (94cm with adapter) Cedrus Alu mast for high winds usage.
The mast is hollow and takes water which is exactly why I bought it. when it blowing 30+ I will usually be on that mast
for the only reason that my board doesn't flip on its belly when I crash. Never having to worry about the foil hitting your head
or slicing your wing makes a big difference.

That said, there's definitely a difference between riding this mast to some carbon masts but not all. Recently I had a chance to
get the f-one HM 14.5mm in exchange for my delaminated NoLimitz. Used it a couple of times and my high efficiency foils did not
feel lively as they did with the NM. I sold the f-one carbon mast. Nolimitz V2 and Cedrus V2 are just around the corner. I'm pretty
sure those will deliver.

Side note: Back in the day, when I used to race road bikes, the debate around Alu Vs Carbon frames was the same.
I don't know if that applies here but the Alu frames used to drain the life out of me on a long rides. The carbon was much easier
on the body and definitely worth the price.

Someone smart I know said it might have something to do with the way those materials carry vibrations which make sense to me
given the the fact that most of my issues with screws loosening during a session happened while using Alu masts or mast with alu
base plate/adapters (Cedrus, NoLimitz)

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Dick Tatta said..
Thanks for your time and effort in replying

I need to try and borrow a carbon or a composite mast to really tell.

I'ma self funded retiree,so I need to make an informed choice

Does anyone know if Naish are bringing out new gear soon????DJ.

New Naish S28 will arrive in September, some Oz retailers have a bit of gear already. I don't think you will see a change in the mast/fuselage attach point, the S27 is really good, one of the best out there. I rode the S26 composite mast for a season and it was great but upgraded to the S27 carbon last season as a treat.
I did get a glimpse of the new foil wings, huge upgrade from the current range.

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airsail said..

Dick Tatta said..
Thanks for your time and effort in replying

I need to try and borrow a carbon or a composite mast to really tell.

I'ma self funded retiree,so I need to make an informed choice

Does anyone know if Naish are bringing out new gear soon????DJ.

New Naish S28 will arrive in September, some Oz retailers have a bit of gear already. I don't think you will see a change in the mast/fuselage attach point, the S27 is really good, one of the best out there. I rode the S26 composite mast for a season and it was great but upgraded to the S27 carbon last season as a treat.
I did get a glimpse of the new foil wings, huge upgrade from the current range.

Can you spill the beans on specs?

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MilesH said..

airsail said..

Dick Tatta said..
Thanks for your time and effort in replying

I need to try and borrow a carbon or a composite mast to really tell.

I'ma self funded retiree,so I need to make an informed choice

Does anyone know if Naish are bringing out new gear soon????DJ.

New Naish S28 will arrive in September, some Oz retailers have a bit of gear already. I don't think you will see a change in the mast/fuselage attach point, the S27 is really good, one of the best out there. I rode the S26 composite mast for a season and it was great but upgraded to the S27 carbon last season as a treat.
I did get a glimpse of the new foil wings, huge upgrade from the current range.

Can you spill the beans on specs?

No specs released, I did ask but it seems no one has them and all hush hush at the moment.

I just took my baseplate off of an Axis 19mm Aluminum mast and was surprised to see about a cup of water come out of the screw holes and gaps. The mast is sealed but there is still a large gap at the top and bottom where water collects. Can't imagine how it gets in there with the screws all gummed up with tef-gel.

I'd call it 1/2 a pound, another good reason to go carbon.

That said, just noticed that Kane (KDMaui) had done a Maliko run using an Axis 19mm mast in (about 32:30, don't quote me but it's close). His best on a carbon mast was (again approx...) 29:30. That is about 10% faster but in my world it's an irrelevant drag increase. Doesn't account for conditions and general improvement in technique/skills etc.

Another good reason to stick with aluminum

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northy1 said..
i think the answer about cost vs benefit is a debatable one

- Someone i ride with has bent 4 Alu masts, so carbon makes sense for him
- Light riders who are just blasting back forth with med wings might not have the same challenges

And all carbon masts are not the same....i know a few people who bought carbon masts (v1) and felt they were too bendy...lighter riders may not notice this.

People are typically always very positive about their recent purchases - recency bias and spend guilt, haha
I am going to go slightly against that grain here a little....i have ridden Axis 90cm Alu for 2 years and recently bought their HM carbon
its only 50g lighter than the Alu...but looks beautiful and no doodad adapter etc.
BUT did it feel 15 x better than the Alu? Was it a game changer?
No - it feels solid. But it didnt blow my mind / make me ride like Titouan ....Sadly it doesn matter how much money i spend on carbon its not a substitute for time on water or talent!

i need to ride the Alu again to see if i can feel any difference - could be that it feels terrible now!

Well said. I've gone from the crazy floppy 16mm converted kitefoil masts back in 2019 (you could feel those suckers wobble all over at any speed!) to the 19mm Axis Al, to Moses beefed up carbon surf masts (pre Krachen), to the Gong V2 carbon, to the Gong High Modulus V2 (85 cm spec but closer to 90cm actual). I also have the Gong V2 aluminum in 75cm length which I rarely use.

Benefit compared to my aluminum? Weight and corrosion, definitely, especially since water always gets into my Al masts. Speed/drag improvement due to thinner profile at fuselage end? yes I actually do notice as I've been adding new moves to the feeble bag-o-tricks. The whole rig is just dead silent and perfectly stable at higher speeds. Placebo benefit? Absolutely! I ride the same mast Malo rides in competition

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northy1 said..
i think the answer about cost vs benefit is a debatable one

- Someone i ride with has bent 4 Alu masts, so carbon makes sense for him
- Light riders who are just blasting back forth with med wings might not have the same challenges

And all carbon masts are not the same....i know a few people who bought carbon masts (v1) and felt they were too bendy...lighter riders may not notice this.

People are typically always very positive about their recent purchases - recency bias and spend guilt, haha
I am going to go slightly against that grain here a little....i have ridden Axis 90cm Alu for 2 years and recently bought their HM carbon
its only 50g lighter than the Alu...but looks beautiful and no doodad adapter etc.
BUT did it feel 15 x better than the Alu? Was it a game changer?
No - it feels solid. But it didnt blow my mind / make me ride like Titouan ....Sadly it doesn matter how much money i spend on carbon its not a substitute for time on water or talent!

i need to ride the Alu again to see if i can feel any difference - could be that it feels terrible now!

Northy, very interested in more on this comparison. I would consider an Axis carbon to replace my 19mm as well but the cost/benefit analysis doesn't make sense in my head. I'm particularly interested in any perceived difference in drag, 16.5 vs 19mm etc.

I still have an original Axis carbon 86cm which I haven't used for over a year but at 14.5mm and that very short chord down low should "feel" very slippery. I recall a noticeable difference in stiffness between it and the 19mm alu but found it still perfectly useable, particularly for shorter span foils.

The difference is massive!! Yes alloy masts work and do the job and the price point is great so as a way to get on the water I'm all for the alloy mast but when it comes to performance then the carbon mast CAN be just so much better. I say CAN as not all carbon masts are made equal and getting a noddle mast is not something I would like to ride either or if they just make it so fat or add to much cord to get the stiffness is also a sacrifice that can kill the performance and maybe not worth the update.

I have done alot of comparisons between the 19mm Axis mast and our new 1 foils mast www.oneoceansportsaustralia.com/one-foils/hm-foil-mast which fits directly into the same fuse join which makes it very easy to compare both off these and the differences are crazy. The carbon is so much faster easier to pump stiffer and lighter, when I ride the Alloy it kind of just feels like I have a limiter on my foil where it works but just keeps the learner key in. When I put the carbon on it just comes to life and it wants to faster.
This of course is just MO but we are also happy to demo out the carbon mast to anyone that wants to feel the difference and make their own judgement.

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paul.j said..
I have done alot of comparisons between the 19mm Axis mast and our new 1 foils mast www.oneoceansportsaustralia.com/one-foils/hm-foil-mast which fits directly into the same fuse join which makes it very easy to compare both off these and the differences are crazy. The carbon is so much faster easier to pump stiffer and lighter, when I ride the Alloy it kind of just feels like I have a limiter on my foil where it works but just keeps the learner key in.

Thanks for giving us the link.

Was wondering whether the new masts and front wings are both compatible with Axis black series fuselages?

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Pat WA 1965 said..

paul.j said..
I have done alot of comparisons between the 19mm Axis mast and our new 1 foils mast www.oneoceansportsaustralia.com/one-foils/hm-foil-mast which fits directly into the same fuse join which makes it very easy to compare both off these and the differences are crazy. The carbon is so much faster easier to pump stiffer and lighter, when I ride the Alloy it kind of just feels like I have a limiter on my foil where it works but just keeps the learner key in.

Thanks for giving us the link.

Was wondering whether the new masts and front wings are both compatible with Axis black series fuselages?

Yes they are compatible.

Thanks everyone for your time effort and advice

I'm convinced about buying a carbon mast.

the cost to return was a a concern I had.

Hopefully It will help/improve my foiling.

Even if it doesn't at least I'll look as though I know what I'm doing.

I have Axis 19 mm Alu and 16 mm HM. After 6 months of riding HM I feel the difference is very big. The difference in speed is quite significant. The stiffness of it and the connection to the foil gives me a lot more confidence in turns. The best way to describe it is when I am riding the HM mast, my Axis HA foils feel a size smaller in turns.

Hi everyone

Well, I've ridden an aluminium foil for a very very long time. It was a great Axis foil with a very stiff 19mm aluminium mast. It was stiff, it was smooth, it was well build and I was a happy man in the world of waves and failed jumps.

Honestly, I didn't see the point of carbon at all until I tried it out. Then I read a couple of articles (including this one : it's in French but you can translate it if interested, go to the carbon or aliminium mast section : foilandco.fr/categorie-produit/foiling/wing-foil/#guide, which helped me understand the main advantage of carbon: reducing thickness. You also have a little video in French with EN subtitles).

So, in order not to die a fool, I decided to try it out (not to buy at first, just to make a few tacks with a friend's foil that had an equivalent surface and programme).

Honestly, I'll never go back to aluminium again. Yes, carbon is more expensive (although the difference in price is minimal compared with my AFS...). Yes, there are carbon masts that are built by marketing teams and are as flexible as my grandmother's spaghetti. But a well-built mast will have almost the same rigidity for several mm less.

I finally bought a complete set up, I've got the same stiffness and 15mm of rope at the bottom... the glide is just crazy in comparison. I still do the rinsing stuff because I'm a maniac, but my mate has never taken it apart and no worries.

The nice thing is that the carbon deforms very slightly at the end of curves but not on the big straight speed runs. Like a surf fin, it gives you a really nice and smooth boost when you come out of a jibe or a wave. So yes, it's worth it, 200% if you have the budget. If not, you'll be happy with an aluminium one, don't worry. The best solution is to try one (and to select a good brand with real know how : AFS, Axis, Levistaz, Mikes Lab...). Cedrus mast can also make a custom mast for your fuselage if you really love your actual set up exept the mast as some Takuma riders did : projectcedrus.com/

Hope it helps, have good rides with your - aluminium or carbon foil ;)

Good question, good carbon mast are very rare....so pick carefully...some alu are stiffer than their carbone version.Point of view of performance, if you are on small thin...not draggy foil, everything part count. If you go above a certain speed...depend of brand...some lower some higher...their alu mast are too tick...and will create bubbles and you will breach...and that is super annoying...but I'm talking about some GPS tracks that I don't see often!!on a thin....gliddy foil...even a thicker stab fill really draggy once you stop pumping...or if you wing....take your wing out of the wind...and mast is surely draggy when you can go a lot more thinner...it realease some drag for sure!!! But you need the stiffness....soft mast for me is a deal breaker...even if they feel more slippery.So...for a vast majority of sailor...performance wise...NO. Sea Water...I can see why if you keep everything mounted....but even carbon...if you don't unscrew...you will be screwed and will go for a mallet.

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paul.j said..
The difference is massive!! Yes alloy masts work and do the job and the price point is great so as a way to get on the water I'm all for the alloy mast but when it comes to performance then the carbon mast CAN be just so much better. I say CAN as not all carbon masts are made equal and getting a noddle mast is not something I would like to ride either or if they just make it so fat or add to much cord to get the stiffness is also a sacrifice that can kill the performance and maybe not worth the update.

I have done alot of comparisons between the 19mm Axis mast and our new 1 foils mast www.oneoceansportsaustralia.com/one-foils/hm-foil-mast which fits directly into the same fuse join which makes it very easy to compare both off these and the differences are crazy. The carbon is so much faster easier to pump stiffer and lighter, when I ride the Alloy it kind of just feels like I have a limiter on my foil where it works but just keeps the learner key in. When I put the carbon on it just comes to life and it wants to faster.
This of course is just MO but we are also happy to demo out the carbon mast to anyone that wants to feel the difference and make their own judgement.

hey Jacko - Simon here in whistler... thought i'd offer my .02 after a few days on your new 1Foil 80 mast linked above... in summary, it shreds :0)

while i'm no foil designer, here's my .02 comparing the 1Foil 80cm UHM mast (3 days riding) to the AXIS 90cm HM mast (10 days riding)..., both on ART1099/1Foil1049/sillyshort.adv/350p:

-axis includes fuse depth in 90cm so actual difference in mast height vs. 1Foil 80 is only 6cm;
-axis is approx 250g heavier 2.2kg vs. 2.45kg;
-1Foil is WAY more tapered (first 10 cm from base is bigger cord and volume/thickness) but after 30cm from base, the 1Foil is approx 10mm less cord for the duration of mast height (30cm -80cm from base). while someone needs to do a stillness/flex test to know, i personally feel the 1Foil mast rides slightly stiffer and faster;
- both are awesome masts and i'll keep both (FWIW, i'm unbiased as a customer of both axis and ONE). if i had to choose one, i'd prolly choose the 1Foil 80 over the AXIS HM 90 for my conditions/use....