It seem the trend is board makers moving their foil boxes forward compared to previous models. The latest Fanatic Sky Wing boards all have the boxes further forward. Some Appletrees like the Slice V2 are also following suit. North Seek 2022/23 seems the same as well. However, that only tells part of the story because on the 2023 Sky Wing boards, they've also moved the rear strap inserts forward, in relation to the boxes... but I suspect that overall, the boxes are still more forward in relation to the strap inserts than they used to be.

Point is, it seems Armstrong started this trend and others are following suit. I also wonder, what part of the foil's geometry results in the lift that makes it more suitable to have a more forward foil location? Also, what in a foil's geometry, like that of Axis foils makes it where those run better further back? I suspect it might be the amount of lift due to the combined angles. For example, I'm aware Axis normally uses 1 degree up front and 1.5 degree out back for a total of 2.5 degrees of positive angle for lift... but, what does Armstrong use? Is it less and that's why they're better further forward?

I just found this video showing how the 2023 Sky Wing has the box and inserts further forward when compared to 2022.

Used the 95 liter 2022 sky wing with the ART 899 and short fuse and carbon mast. I had it 1cm from the back of the tracks and the footstraps in the most forward position. The new board would not work for me unless the footstrap holes moved too. If they did then it would actually be fine since the board was a bit nose up trying to balance on it before I started moving.
I don't know but I think axis is the furthest back, so it will probably work with any setup if it also works with armie stuff that is the furthest forward.

Used the 95 liter 2022 sky wing with the ART 899 and short fuse and carbon mast. I had the mast bolts 1cm from their rear-most position in the back of the tracks and the footstraps in the most forward position. That's also about where the mikes lab stuff goes with an adapter.The new board would not work for me unless the footstrap holes moved too. If they did then it would actually be fine since the board was a bit nose up trying to balance on it before I started moving.
I don't know but I think axis is the furthest back, so it will probably work with any setup if it also works with armie stuff that is the furthest forward.

Im not sure why their board was so nose bouyant since I'm 77kg and in the front most foot position. You would think that an average weight person on an (regardless of foil) would be properly balanced in the middle footstrap position at slogging and preslogging speeds. I suspect this was part of the decision to move the tracks forward if they moved the footstraps the same amount.

I think that the front of track/rear of track or front foot/back foot foil come from the angle of attack of the foil wings. More upward angle of front wing and downward angle of stab create more lift and more front foot pressure. I have axis and after putting a negative shim on my stab (on axis this makes the stab leading edge point down less while foiling), I found this created less front foot pressure amongst other things ( increased speed, more maneuverability and increased pumping efficiently). I haven't played with flattening the angle of attack of the front wing (haven't felt the need) but it would be interesting the try.

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JohnnyTsunami said..
Used the 95 liter 2022 sky wing with the ART 899 and short fuse and carbon mast. I had it 1cm from the back of the tracks and the footstraps in the most forward position. The new board would not work for me unless the footstrap holes moved too. If they did then it would actually be fine since the board was a bit nose up trying to balance on it before I started moving.
I don't know but I think axis is the furthest back, so it will probably work with any setup if it also works with armie stuff that is the furthest forward.

Agree, I have Axis ART 799 and 899.
However, spend more money and get the advanced fuselage as apparently 40mm difference so can move mast forward, my head hurts.

I think there is a trend towards smaller rear stabs like the axis 325p and 300p and shorter fuses. This reduces front foot pressure and results in people moving foils further forward.

Smaller tails /tail angle / shorter fuses = less drag more speed and efficiency ,but less front foot pressure so the need to slide the rig further and longer boxes needed. Also less swing weights of boards with foil mounted forward.Armstrong/ Unifoil/ Lift to begin with ,the rest following.

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JohnnyTsunami said..
Used the 95 liter 2022 sky wing with the ART 899 and short fuse and carbon mast. I had it 1cm from the back of the tracks and the footstraps in the most forward position. The new board would not work for me unless the footstrap holes moved too. If they did then it would actually be fine since the board was a bit nose up trying to balance on it before I started moving.
I don't know but I think axis is the furthest back, so it will probably work with any setup if it also works with armie stuff that is the furthest forward.

Yep, that's been my experience. I love my Axis rig and expect to stick with them. It does mean I have to be careful with my board choice. I was waiting for Fanatic to drop new boards, but it looks like I'll be skipping them for this very reason. I might go Axis for my new board, or Appletree.

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Gustenzo said..
I think that the front of track/rear of track or front foot/back foot foil come from the angle of attack of the foil wings. More upward angle of front wing and downward angle of stab create more lift and more front foot pressure. I have axis and after putting a negative shim on my stab (on axis this makes the stab leading edge point down less while foiling), I found this created less front foot pressure amongst other things ( increased speed, more maneuverability and increased pumping efficiently). I haven't played with flattening the angle of attack of the front wing (haven't felt the need) but it would be interesting the try.

I was thinking the same thing. However, after looking closely at specs, it appears the Armstrong stuff generally uses the same total angles as Axis: 1 degree up in the front, 1.5 degrees down in the back, for a total of 2.5 positive. So, I think there might be more to the geometry than just that.

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warwickl said..

JohnnyTsunami said..
Used the 95 liter 2022 sky wing with the ART 899 and short fuse and carbon mast. I had it 1cm from the back of the tracks and the footstraps in the most forward position. The new board would not work for me unless the footstrap holes moved too. If they did then it would actually be fine since the board was a bit nose up trying to balance on it before I started moving.
I don't know but I think axis is the furthest back, so it will probably work with any setup if it also works with armie stuff that is the furthest forward.

Agree, I have Axis ART 799 and 899.
However, spend more money and get the advanced fuselage as apparently 40mm difference so can move mast forward, my head hurts.

Yes ^^^ I got my mast 1cm forward of the back of the tracks with an HPS980 / 375p and the Advance Crazy Short fuse on a 2022 Fanatic Sky Wing 5'2" 85L. That's kinda how I know the new Fanatic boards might not work, unless they ALSO moved the inserts forward. I can get away with an HPS980/400p Standard Ultrashort at the very back, but I'm still standing just a bit too forward of the strap position. I'd need to have a lot of weight forward to make that work. I'm 82kg BTW.

Foil design is becoming more focused on glide with higher aspect foils, smaller stabs and shorter fuses. As a result foils are becoming more neutral allowing a more nuanced foot/body position to manage pitch. This indeed obliged some brands to redesign their mast tracks forward. F-One boards had their mast tracks forward from the start and others including Armstrong followed suit.

My theory is it's half trend and half foils getting lighter. On the same board I run my reedin foil 1cm from the front of the box with the carbon mast and slammed all the way back with the aluminum. Both ride about the same. Gofoil also runs all the way back. All these foils are ridden with neutral to slightly front footed tail tuning.
lighter foil = farther forwards = less swing weight from the board.

Simplisticly I am theorizing that axis (compared to other more forward brands) has a larger distance from the front foil to the mast attachment. Their advance fuselage simply shortens this distance which means the mast is more forward for the same foil position, which is probably more aligned with armstrong etc. This achieves a more surfy effect at the cost of upwind ability (apparently).

Otherwise it could be that axis is generally more lifty, but you would need to analyze the comfortable feet position relative to front wing position (not mast position) to understand that. IMO

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Powis said..
Simplisticly I am theorizing that axis (compared to other more forward brands) has a larger distance from the front foil to the mast attachment. Their advance fuselage simply shortens this distance which means the mast is more forward for the same foil position, which is probably more aligned with armstrong etc. This achieves a more surfy effect at the cost of upwind ability (apparently).

Otherwise it could be that axis is generally more lifty, but you would need to analyze the comfortable feet position relative to front wing position (not mast position) to understand that. IMO

Since starting this thread about 10 days ago I've put in about 5 sessions at 3+ hours each. I've tested the Advanced Crazyshort against the Standard Ultrashort both with various combinations of HPS 880 and HPS 980 with either 375P and 400P stabs.The advanced fuse does have me move the mast forward about 1.5" or so. Pretty consistent. If I run the HPS 980 with the 400p, the Advance fuse works just fine, but the standard one has the foil all the way back and almost wanting to go back a tad more. It's hard for me to compare it with Armstrong, because I only have a huge HS1850 there. The chord of that is so long that it makes the entire thing feel longer. I'll need to fine someone with a HA front foil and take some measurements.With all configurations, I preferred the smaller 375p stab. Either way, it looks that if you underfoil a bit, the reduced lift has you wanting to move the foil a bit forward... but still not much.My setup does appear to work well on the 2022 Fanatic so long as you don't go too big on the setup and use smaller stabs (for my 82kg at least). However, having to be careful on choosing your board is something that still stands... specially if planning to use straps. In this case, seeing how much more forward the boxes are on the 2023 Fanatics, I personally wouldn't consider ordering one. I'd have to test first because I do not expect them to work well with my setup.

It's the board shape that dictates where would be the best place to stand on that particular board. Armstrong boards just seem to be designed the way that favors standing more forward. The same does not apply for all boards though, so I'd say it would not make sense to just force yourself to mimic where the foil is placed on Armstrong boards.

Below is a random picture of an Armstrong board. The rider is standing pretty far forward on that board, but as you see, relative to the foil it's nothing out of ordinary.


And on my board the tracks are not particularly too far forward, or too long either, yet as I am standing further in the back on that board (more on top of the foil), it all still works wonderfully with all very different foil sets that I have.


My point is, that some boards do not have as much volume in the nose and the rocker just has not made the way that would make sense to stand too far forward on that board. Hence the tracks do not extend that far forward either.

That said, with some older boards the tracks are indeed limiting what kind of foils you can use.

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FoilAddict said..
My theory is it's half trend and half foils getting lighter. On the same board I run my reedin foil 1cm from the front of the box with the carbon mast and slammed all the way back with the aluminum. Both ride about the same. Gofoil also runs all the way back. All these foils are ridden with neutral to slightly front footed tail tuning.
lighter foil = farther forwards = less swing weight from the board.

Don't understand how the weight of the foil effects lift ? Mast position on fuse makes sense and also different foil sections on front or tail wings of the same size produce different amounts of lift needing different track positions.

I have a different theory behind the trend of moving foil-boxes and footsteps forward... With my 210lbs of dry-weight, I can not slog in both footstraps with a lot of boards. On my latest diy board, I have put the straps and boxes in a comparable position as Armstrong. I can slog in both footstraps with equal pressure in both feet.
The second point is swing-weight. By moving the foil and the rider further forward on the same board, you reduce the swing-weight and get a lighter/smaller feeling board. With the new 40cm foil-boxes it shouldn't be too big of a problem to find the right tuning for every foil.

BR, David

maybe the added tail rocker puts the foil more back relative to the board

example:
I ride Takuma Kujira foils on a 0deg tail rocker board so I had to put a 2,3deg rake plate to get the board flat.
So the angle board / mast is >90deg and the angle mast / fuselage is <90deg
The foil sits more at the back and I need to put it more forward in the rails to compensate.
hope you guys understand what I mean

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FoilAddict said..
My theory is it's half trend and half foils getting lighter. On the same board I run my reedin foil 1cm from the front of the box with the carbon mast and slammed all the way back with the aluminum. Both ride about the same. Gofoil also runs all the way back. All these foils are ridden with neutral to slightly front footed tail tuning.
lighter foil = farther forwards = less swing weight from the board.

Completely lost me on this one ,but very interested.

Heavier mast will shift CG of setup more to the rear at same position...so why move it even further back?.

And if you happen to read/answer this...how does the wing-to-mast distance affect foil behaviour?

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JohnnyTsunami said..
Used the 95 liter 2022 sky wing with the ART 899 and short fuse and carbon mast. I had it 1cm from the back of the tracks and the footstraps in the most forward position. The new board would not work for me unless the footstrap holes moved too. If they did then it would actually be fine since the board was a bit nose up trying to balance on it before I started moving.
I don't know but I think axis is the furthest back, so it will probably work with any setup if it also works with armie stuff that is the furthest forward.

holes moved - stance is told to be shorter though ..

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DB2 said..
I have a different theory behind the trend of moving foil-boxes and footsteps forward... With my 210lbs of dry-weight, I can not slog in both footstraps with a lot of boards. On my latest diy board, I have put the straps and boxes in a comparable position as Armstrong. I can slog in both footstraps with equal pressure in both feet.
The second point is swing-weight. By moving the foil and the rider further forward on the same board, you reduce the swing-weight and get a lighter/smaller feeling board. With the new 40cm foil-boxes it shouldn't be too big of a problem to find the right tuning for every foil.

BR, David

Completely agree. Armie previously noted--in an interview somewhere--that this is what Forward Geometry (FG)is all about. I ride the 60L FG, which is a sinker for me at 82kg, but maintain the same foot position (in straps)throughout. The shape of the board and volume distribution play a critical role but neither can be isolated to yield the same effect were the mast tracks not positioned so far forward.

Not sure if I'm weird but I use a axis HPS 930 and HPS 1050 right in the middle of the box on a 2022 fanatic 95....not the rear. My front straps I think are at front or middle...no rear straps on... and it feels good to me at 95kg. Maybe I should move them back to see what I'm missing!?!

In my experience foils ride best when the center of gravity of board+foil is in close to being in line with the front wing.

My theory is that since foils are very sensitive to pitch changes, the additional nose or tail weight added due to centripetal force when you turn will throw off the balance of the foil. A heavy mast adds tail weight, which must be countered by nose weight in the form of moving the foil back. This is a turn-centric theory and doesn't apply if you don't care about turning (pumping).

Sometimes when the box isn't forward/back enough I will add weight to the nose or tail of the board to balance it out.

Try it yourself! If you tend to breach in turns only, move the foil back. if you tend to touch the board or dig rail in turns only, move the foil forwards.

Thanks for clarifying , I understand what you are saying now. I find that when I initially get up on foil I have a comfortable amount of front foot pressure, then when I drop down a steep section and get a speed spike the front foot pressure goes up mostly peaking at the bottom of the wave then it evens out again even at the higher speed on the flats and generally stays constant throughout any turns. Therefore the front foot pressure stays pretty much the same throughout the speed range ,so my theory is the only time it should increase is when the relative water flow angle changes and that's mostly find at the bottom section of a steep/ bigger drop when the angles change the most. This appears to hold true ,because when tow foiling onto larger rolling swells that aren't that steep , I'm traveling fast but the foot pressure remains constant. Interested in others experience?

That's a separate discussion to the box location and the mast position relative to the foil. For any position of anything you will have issues of too much / too little lift at different speeds. Especially as you fine tune your gear.
Manufacturers should have the average rider with the same brand foil in the middle of the box and have the board balanced at slog in the middle footstrap position, as well as on foil at the average speed. If they don't, they screwed up or they're making room for other brands to use the other end of the box, etc. I.e. if you have your feet all the way forward on a slog with all your weight on your front foot to keep the board from sinking on the tail and then on foil you are balanced they messed up.

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JohnnyTsunami said..
if you have your feet all the way forward on a slog with all your weight on your front foot to keep the board from sinking on the tail and then on foil you are balanced they messed up.

Funnily, in this last sentence you described one of the most fabulous boards out there. Nothing messed up there.

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northy1 said..
Not sure if I'm weird but I use a axis HPS 930 and HPS 1050 right in the middle of the box on a 2022 fanatic 95....not the rear. My front straps I think are at front or middle...no rear straps on... and it feels good to me at 95kg. Maybe I should move them back to see what I'm missing!?!

I think this makes sense. I'm 82kg. It's the weight difference for sure. You shouldn't have to move it all back. Likely this is why it feels perfect to you there. If I put that setup in the middle of the box on this board (95 or 85 - similar enough) I have to put my front well in front of the front strap inserts to keep the foil balanced. I've tried.

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northy1 said..
Not sure if I'm weird but I use a axis HPS 930 and HPS 1050 right in the middle of the box on a 2022 fanatic 95....not the rear. My front straps I think are at front or middle...no rear straps on... and it feels good to me at 95kg. Maybe I should move them back to see what I'm missing!?!

Exactly where I have the same however, ART 799 and 899 are at the back .

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JohnnyTsunami said..
That's a separate discussion to the box location and the mast position relative to the foil. For any position of anything you will have issues of too much / too little lift at different speeds. Especially as you fine tune your gear.
Manufacturers should have the average rider with the same brand foil in the middle of the box and have the board balanced at slog in the middle footstrap position, as well as on foil at the average speed. If they don't, they screwed up or they're making room for other brands to use the other end of the box, etc. I.e. if you have your feet all the way forward on a slog with all your weight on your front foot to keep the board from sinking on the tail and then on foil you are balanced they messed up.

By the way... I saw a North Seek board at our local beach with a Fanatic/Duotone foil on it. I took the time to measure it as I was interested in that board for myself... but looking at the photos, I felt the box was too far forward in relation to the rear strap inserts to work with my Axis foil. I proved that with the measurements I did. I would not be happy with that board as I wouldn't be able to put my foil far back enough.

Anyway, my point is THAT board has a new Fanatic/Duotone foil it. If it's riding well with that it tells me that for 2023, that's why they've changed the position of the boxes... to better accommodate the geometry of their own foils.

It seems a lot of brands and manufacturers have been following the trend set by Armstrong (and I think also F-One) and are designing their foils around a more forward geometry. Now I've found that North and Fanatic are doing the same. Axis is different and I wonder about Sabfoil?

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warwickl said..

northy1 said..
Not sure if I'm weird but I use a axis HPS 930 and HPS 1050 right in the middle of the box on a 2022 fanatic 95....not the rear. My front straps I think are at front or middle...no rear straps on... and it feels good to me at 95kg. Maybe I should move them back to see what I'm missing!?!

Exactly where I have the same however, ART 799 and 899 are at the back .

What's your weight though?
And... same board?

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FoilWays said..

Gustenzo said..
I think that the front of track/rear of track or front foot/back foot foil come from the angle of attack of the foil wings. More upward angle of front wing and downward angle of stab create more lift and more front foot pressure. I have axis and after putting a negative shim on my stab (on axis this makes the stab leading edge point down less while foiling), I found this created less front foot pressure amongst other things ( increased speed, more maneuverability and increased pumping efficiently). I haven't played with flattening the angle of attack of the front wing (haven't felt the need) but it would be interesting the try.

I was thinking the same thing. However, after looking closely at specs, it appears the Armstrong stuff generally uses the same total angles as Axis: 1 degree up in the front, 1.5 degrees down in the back, for a total of 2.5 positive. So, I think there might be more to the geometry than just that.

Hear what your saying. Only one very small correction: Axis is 2 deg up AoA on front wing and 1.5 deg AoA down on stab. But still not too different from Armstrong if they have 2.5 deg difference between front and rear. Maybe the parallel line of AoA of front and rear compared to fuse and base plate create the front/back foot feel too.