Sorry for bringing up a likely controversial subject - rail shape - but the amount of times people are talking **** about other designs and products they clearly don't use themselves and/or have enough experience with is astonishing in the winging world. I am sure it's the same in other sports too.



Like in the video above (the relevant part starts at 21:20), talking about KT shapes without showing the clip they both are referring to there. A cutback is a move where you are still turning. If a hard edged shape touches down during a turn the rail would track and the board would want to start going straight, while the rider at the same time is still relying on the board to continue turning. That's why some foil board designs have these special and more bevelled rail shapes that would not track that much while touching down. Yes, if not careful you would lose some speed and that could take you off balance, but you very quickly learn to overcome that feeling and can still pull off the move with no issues. The guy whose hard railed board suddenly starts tracking and going straight in the middle of a committed turn will end up in the drink for sure.

Here, a double concave bottom, very bevelled rails with a concave on the bevel, specially designed to support you while touching down while the board is at an angle (like it happens during making a turn), and zero issues. The board just bounces back and lets you finish the turn the way you wanted, without making changes to the line you intended to draw, and that's largely thanks to the rail shape.



And with some KT shapes you don't even feel any drag while touching down, not even a flinch. And that's the first 5 min try of this shape, not after an extensive getting used to period.



I'd encourage people to try different shapes, put some time in and learn to appreciate the design features and the reasons why something works in some situations and why it perhaps does not in some other. And overgeneralisation and plain talking **** at a brand level is never a good idea and does not do good for the sport / hobby / however we call it.

Looking at the Jimmy Lewis video, it seems you very much disagree with his opinion about edge shapes. And then you bash him. He is talking about a specific instance of a round edge catching in waves. That board happens to be a KT board. He is not "talking ****" about KT boards, he's giving an example of where he observed limitations of rounded shapes, and where he thinks the shapes he prefers are better. As he points out a few times, he has physics and fluid dynamics on his side.

The two example videos you show are both on very flat water, not in Maui waves. Obviously, board shapes will behave very different in flat water. I got a couple of boards which are just about perfect on flat water, where they accelerate nicely and bounce back well from touch downs. But in serious chop or closely spaced swell, they can be a pain to get going, and have a strong tendency to do full-stops leading to crashes, and the "sucking down on touchdowns" certainly rings a bell.

A lot of the design decisions are based on theories which are basically all unproven. They tend to have some reasonable justification, but sometimes they are in direct contrast. In this example, where Jimmy Lewis disagrees with Keith Teboul, it's quite interesting to see that their current preferences match their background - with Jimmy Lewis well know for shaping very fast boards (which require hard edges) decades ago, and Keith Teboul shaping radical wave boards with lots of rocker and soft edges. Confirmation bias rears it's ugly head...

@boardsurfr No, I think I was pretty clear about what I was disagreeing with. All we know is somebody fell in while doing cutback with a KT board. Big deal. There are so many things that can go wrong in a cut back. Would love to see that video they were talking about.

I am using a board with bevelled rails in the waves as well. And this may come as a surprise to few, but foiling on flat water and riding in waves are not actually that different. The same principle applies - you feel the slow down in deeper touchdowns, but when prepared for the feeling it does not affect your ability to continue with the turn. Did not perhaps find the best example clip, but there are a few touchdowns here, at 00:30, 00:33 and 01:44. No issues whatsoever. I'd really want to see what kind of cutback they were talking about.




Oh, here is maybe a better example. Same thing - no issues at all, you bounce right up from the touchdown.

I hated deep double concave and bevel rails on a wingboard they were quite sticky. I don't know the latest models of kt, but the 21-22 I've tried, they were quite sticky and if you listen to KT in different podcast, he admits it, there was too much work on the bottom for nothing. Then I've rode f-one rocket wing s...that is also double concave and bevel rail..maybe not as rad...but for a reason I don't know I like the Rocket S a lot.

Personally I find hard railed boards tend to "pull" you into the wave/chop face if you catch an edge. Much like slalom windsurf boards with hard edges can feel catchy. I had a custom board made with good sized "chines" on the rails. Still a reasonably hard edge between base and chine to allow good water release, but enough chine that the water tends to catch that first and just keeps trucking along. Far easier to recover from a rail catch.

I really didn't pick up on a vibe of talking $h!t about other brands. It just seemed like a design conversation. I'm also super confused by your comments. They mentioned a sticky rounded hull, which I would assume refers to the dragonfly, and then you posted a couple videos of boards with chined rails not sticking, which seems to support the video you were complaining about?

For what it's worth I both paddled and winged the Kalama barracuda and KT dragonfly back to back and the KT was an immediate no for me. I took it straight back to the shop and said "no, this feels really sticky to me" and ended up with the barracuda. I also have a Kalama e3 prone/dw board and it has a rounded nose with chines in the back. I have been tossed over the handlebars on that board many times over when the rounded hull "grabbed" the water and chucked me.

Right now I'm 13 sessions into my Sunova Carver and all of my touchdowns have been the smoothest I've had. No feeling of "sticky" or "grabby" and there's chined rails the whole length.

Last, all the videos you shared seem to be from a KT vendor. I doubt they care much about an interview that casually mentions a rider falling on a KT board. I think if they had shown the clip and then told everyone to not buy KT that would be an issue for sure, but this really seemed quite innocent to me.

@bwalnut I think I clearly heard them mentioning double concaves, and round rails, while discussing this. The dragonfly does not have double concaves, and the example clips I sent are with a board with round rails and double concaves, and with an additional concave on the rails. Except the board in the clip behind a boat. So at the end it's confusing to me too. BTW, it is me riding there in these example clips.

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BWalnut said..

Taavi said..
@bwalnut I think I clearly heard them mentioning double concaves, and round rails, while discussing this. The dragonfly does not have double concaves, and the example clips I sent are with a board with round rails and double concaves, and with an additional concave on the rails. Except the board in the clip behind a boat. So at the end it's confusing to me too. BTW, it is me riding there in these example clips.

Ah, gotcha.

So, you're a KT vendor? Either way, I think your post might impact people differently than you hoped. You said you don't like talking $h!t at a brand level but this kind of feels like a KT vendor lashing out at Jimmy Lewis just because an unknown KT board was mentioned in an obscure youtube video. Which, is the exact opposite of what you wanted right?

Yesterday in Hood River I saw a KT dw rider screaming at a fallen winger. "Get the **** out of my way you ****ing *****!" Obviously it's not KT's fault who rides his boards, but when I see that kind of thing on the river, and then see posts like this on the web, it doesn't make me think "I want to join the KT family."

But, I could be wrong about how this looks to other people. I make plenty of mistakes in life myself.

I think you are reading too much into it. Was not lashing out on anybody, or any brand, and for sure not on anybody specifically. I was "lashing out" (as you say) on overgeneralisation, which is a widespread thing, and I think it's not great. I just merely pointed out how in my experience the hard railed shapes tend to track and want to go straight, and some other pretty round railed shapes do that less, despite all the concaves and what not. And that kind of tracking in the middle of a turn is not actually what you'd want. They talked specifically about touching down in a cutback as I understood, a move where rider is not on top of the board but is leaning into the turn a lot. Quite different from a regular touching down while going in a straight line. I think video examples of your own riding always help, provide more context, but looks like it's not always the case : )

Are you a KT vendor or affiliated with them?

I didn't listen to this podcast, but I did listen to another and I distinctly remember 2 hours in Jimmy declaring he's never foiled.

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Faff said..
I didn't listen to this podcast, but I did listen to another and I distinctly remember 2 hours in Jimmy declaring he's never foiled.

Yes I was about to mention this. I want to give him the benefit of the doubt but I believe he said he hasn't even walked to the beach to watch how they perform, as soon as they were out of the shop that seemed to be where the interest for foiling boards ended . From the same podcast I believe he based a lot of his shaping upon an old friends hydro analysis.

I've been around enough shapers & kayak builders & listened to enough podacsts from Foil designers to know that they have their own opinions & hold quite strong views. Nowadays I take it all with a grain of salt & whatever seems to fit with my experience or makes sense is what I follow.

Taavi you obviously feel strongly about KT. I'm sure he appreciates your loyalty.

Anyway this is a timely thread. I'm about to build a new DW board & was wondering what people prefer in top rails & chines? My current one has very hard rails & Kalama style chines. I love it however I do get battered by side chop a bit. Does the rounder rails help with this?

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Microsurfer said..
that they have their own opinions & hold quite strong views.

That's very common in sports.
People having no scientific background will fall easily into the bias of confirmation.

They have an idea, and then look only for things (arguments or experience) that go their way and ignore the rest.
What is funny is seeing them fiercely defending a feature one year and another one the year after, handpicking different justifications.

Boards are getting narrower only need a bevel in the tail. Bevels in the centre are only relevant for wide sups. Bit of history really.

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colas said..

Microsurfer said..
that they have their own opinions & hold quite strong views.

That's very common in sports.
People having no scientific background will fall easily into the bias of confirmation.

They have an idea, and then look only for things (arguments or experience) that go their way and ignore the rest.
What is funny is seeing them fiercely defending a feature one year and another one the year after, handpicking different justifications.

Jimmy says repeatedly "It's not my opinion it's science". Whenever somebody says that I wholeheartedly believe everything they say.

Lot of newer boards have prominent chine to help clear the wave and effectively reduce the width even more when the board is moving.

If you want to hit whitewater hard rails are much better as chine/bevel will push the board in unpredictable directions.

I have been riding the Jimmy VM board for the last year in high winds and large swell (no waves) . The board does Not stick in touch downs just pops back up with ease. Have not had any issues on turns. Downside of the board is that it does take some wind or pumping to get off the water. It's probably more to do with rocker and bottom shape though.

I rode the KT Wing Drifter 62 liter for 18 months as my go to wing board and travelled twice around the pacific rim with it from California getting experience in a wide variety of reefs and conditions. The board was very forgiving on touchdowns, and I can attest to the ease of use. While it was very good at all-around performance, it was too wide when really grinding out turns in real waves. My current board is a hard railed 19" wide 63 liter board that added thickness to accommodate the narrowness. The hard rails the length of the board are different, and they add to performance in ways that compensate for areas that the soft or beveled rails diminish performance. My board is designed to generate boardspeed and work when its on the water to help get smaller high aspect foils flying. My experience is that the soft edge boards are designed for release to break surface tension, and I think they put too much emphasis on design around flying and ignore too much of the design for when they are on the water. Basically, my hard railed board took a little time to master, but once I got the swing I can only say that it does not make me fall. If you are physical and 'surf' the board when you need to on touchdowns there is no negative and there is no 'tracking'. The contradictions in board designs really come down to the rider adjusting the technique to ride through touchdowns and other situations. My opinion based on my experience is that the soft, rolled, beveled rails are not necessary and kind of a gimmick. I recommend anyone that develops a strong opinion on the matter be sure to really ride (for many sessions) other design types before forming too strong an opinion. You only hold yourself back if you 'think' you know the answer (not a shot at anyone one commenting here). This is a great discussion that does need to happen since designers are trying to wow us since day one with designs that completely contradict each other.

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SoloPelican said..
... The contradictions in board designs really come down to the rider adjusting the technique to ride through touchdowns and other situations.
... I recommend anyone that develops a strong opinion on the matter be sure to really ride (for many sessions) other design types before forming too strong an opinion.

Excellent points. The only problem is that testing new gear is often limited to one session, for example at a demo day. When buying new gear, there's a lot more time and incentive to figure out how to use it.

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SoloPelican said..
I rode the KT Wing Drifter 62 liter for 18 months as my go to wing board and travelled twice around the pacific rim with it from California getting experience in a wide variety of reefs and conditions. The board was very forgiving on touchdowns, and I can attest to the ease of use. While it was very good at all-around performance, it was too wide when really grinding out turns in real waves. My current board is a hard railed 19" wide 63 liter board that added thickness to accommodate the narrowness. The hard rails the length of the board are different, and they add to performance in ways that compensate for areas that the soft or beveled rails diminish performance. My board is designed to generate boardspeed and work when its on the water to help get smaller high aspect foils flying. My experience is that the soft edge boards are designed for release to break surface tension, and I think they put too much emphasis on design around flying and ignore too much of the design for when they are on the water. Basically, my hard railed board took a little time to master, but once I got the swing I can only say that it does not make me fall. If you are physical and 'surf' the board when you need to on touchdowns there is no negative and there is no 'tracking'. The contradictions in board designs really come down to the rider adjusting the technique to ride through touchdowns and other situations. My opinion based on my experience is that the soft, rolled, beveled rails are not necessary and kind of a gimmick. I recommend anyone that develops a strong opinion on the matter be sure to really ride (for many sessions) other design types before forming too strong an opinion. You only hold yourself back if you 'think' you know the answer (not a shot at anyone one commenting here). This is a great discussion that does need to happen since designers are trying to wow us since day one with designs that completely contradict each other.

I tried and owned a bunch of boards. Fanatic with flat bottom, for me it was the worst board I owned, felt super sticky on touch downs. Good board to learn, very stable and easy but soon I started to suffer it, the width and I thought flat bottom.Also owned a few Amos with concave complex bottoms but pretty wide. They were better than the fanatic but at some point the width got in the way. Also had an Armstrong 60l for a few months until my my custom was done (borrowed from team rider) it was good on foil, but many things I didn't care for. The deck had all weird concaves that were always under my heel, the footstraps location wasn't great for me, and because the tail sunk quite a bit, it needed more wind to get up than my 75- it was also pretty heavy The picture below is my current board, I absolutely love it, 60l by 4?11 x 22. 3kg. Goes on foil easier than the Amos 75l, the nose area has a single concave, it doesn't feel sticky on touch downs at all. I like to jump so I wanted a bit more nose area for landing, footstraps and boxes very forward, board is ?small? but feels tiny when on foil. It is the easiest and most comfortable board I ever tried. I don't know the science behind any of my statements, only my personal experience.

Soft edge vs hard edge - which is stickier. Simple test you can do at home:

?feature=share

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bolocom said..

SoloPelican said..
I rode the KT Wing Drifter 62 liter for 18 months as my go to wing board and travelled twice around the pacific rim with it from California getting experience in a wide variety of reefs and conditions. The board was very forgiving on touchdowns, and I can attest to the ease of use. While it was very good at all-around performance, it was too wide when really grinding out turns in real waves. My current board is a hard railed 19" wide 63 liter board that added thickness to accommodate the narrowness. The hard rails the length of the board are different, and they add to performance in ways that compensate for areas that the soft or beveled rails diminish performance. My board is designed to generate boardspeed and work when its on the water to help get smaller high aspect foils flying. My experience is that the soft edge boards are designed for release to break surface tension, and I think they put too much emphasis on design around flying and ignore too much of the design for when they are on the water. Basically, my hard railed board took a little time to master, but once I got the swing I can only say that it does not make me fall. If you are physical and 'surf' the board when you need to on touchdowns there is no negative and there is no 'tracking'. The contradictions in board designs really come down to the rider adjusting the technique to ride through touchdowns and other situations. My opinion based on my experience is that the soft, rolled, beveled rails are not necessary and kind of a gimmick. I recommend anyone that develops a strong opinion on the matter be sure to really ride (for many sessions) other design types before forming too strong an opinion. You only hold yourself back if you 'think' you know the answer (not a shot at anyone one commenting here). This is a great discussion that does need to happen since designers are trying to wow us since day one with designs that completely contradict each other.

I tried and owned a bunch of boards. Fanatic with flat bottom, for me it was the worst board I owned, felt super sticky on touch downs. Good board to learn, very stable and easy but soon I started to suffer it, the width and I thought flat bottom.Also owned a few Amos with concave complex bottoms but pretty wide. They were better than the fanatic but at some point the width got in the way. Also had an Armstrong 60l for a few months until my my custom was done (borrowed from team rider) it was good on foil, but many things I didn't care for. The deck had all weird concaves that were always under my heel, the footstraps location wasn't great for me, and because the tail sunk quite a bit, it needed more wind to get up than my 75- it was also pretty heavy The picture below is my current board, I absolutely love it, 60l by 4?11 x 22. 3kg. Goes on foil easier than the Amos 75l, the nose area has a single concave, it doesn't feel sticky on touch downs at all. I like to jump so I wanted a bit more nose area for landing, footstraps and boxes very forward, board is ?small? but feels tiny when on foil. It is the easiest and most comfortable board I ever tried. I don't know the science behind any of my statements, only my personal experience.

cool looking board... who made that? shares some design elements with the AFS Blackbird (I have the 6'2")... would be interesting to try something like this... especially at only 3kg

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sunsetsailboards said..

bolocom said..

SoloPelican said..
I rode the KT Wing Drifter 62 liter for 18 months as my go to wing board and travelled twice around the pacific rim with it from California getting experience in a wide variety of reefs and conditions. The board was very forgiving on touchdowns, and I can attest to the ease of use. While it was very good at all-around performance, it was too wide when really grinding out turns in real waves. My current board is a hard railed 19" wide 63 liter board that added thickness to accommodate the narrowness. The hard rails the length of the board are different, and they add to performance in ways that compensate for areas that the soft or beveled rails diminish performance. My board is designed to generate boardspeed and work when its on the water to help get smaller high aspect foils flying. My experience is that the soft edge boards are designed for release to break surface tension, and I think they put too much emphasis on design around flying and ignore too much of the design for when they are on the water. Basically, my hard railed board took a little time to master, but once I got the swing I can only say that it does not make me fall. If you are physical and 'surf' the board when you need to on touchdowns there is no negative and there is no 'tracking'. The contradictions in board designs really come down to the rider adjusting the technique to ride through touchdowns and other situations. My opinion based on my experience is that the soft, rolled, beveled rails are not necessary and kind of a gimmick. I recommend anyone that develops a strong opinion on the matter be sure to really ride (for many sessions) other design types before forming too strong an opinion. You only hold yourself back if you 'think' you know the answer (not a shot at anyone one commenting here). This is a great discussion that does need to happen since designers are trying to wow us since day one with designs that completely contradict each other.

I tried and owned a bunch of boards. Fanatic with flat bottom, for me it was the worst board I owned, felt super sticky on touch downs. Good board to learn, very stable and easy but soon I started to suffer it, the width and I thought flat bottom.Also owned a few Amos with concave complex bottoms but pretty wide. They were better than the fanatic but at some point the width got in the way. Also had an Armstrong 60l for a few months until my my custom was done (borrowed from team rider) it was good on foil, but many things I didn't care for. The deck had all weird concaves that were always under my heel, the footstraps location wasn't great for me, and because the tail sunk quite a bit, it needed more wind to get up than my 75- it was also pretty heavy The picture below is my current board, I absolutely love it, 60l by 4?11 x 22. 3kg. Goes on foil easier than the Amos 75l, the nose area has a single concave, it doesn't feel sticky on touch downs at all. I like to jump so I wanted a bit more nose area for landing, footstraps and boxes very forward, board is ?small? but feels tiny when on foil. It is the easiest and most comfortable board I ever tried. I don't know the science behind any of my statements, only my personal experience.

cool looking board... who made that? shares some design elements with the AFS Blackbird (I have the 6'2")... would be interesting to try something like this... especially at only 3kg

Jason Pyke, he came out with a super strong and incredibly light construction, using basalt, carbon, cork and some special sauce.
Didnt know the Blackbird, but yes they do have things in common.

Not sure the spoon thing works. Have ridden lots of E3 Kalama boards with hard edges. But my Code boards pop up way easier. More to it than edges - length, weight, width, pilot skill, mast position, etc.




V

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hilly said..
Not sure the spoon thing works. Have ridden lots of E3 Kalama boards with hard edges. But my Code boards pop up way easier. More to it than edges - length, weight, width, pilot skill, mast position, etc.




V

Sorry for the daft question but Code do production boards eg outside of Australia??

Ben Tardrew does custom boards in Oz. Not sure about overseas. Contact him through FB. www.facebook.com/btardrew?mibextid=PtKPJ9

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boardsurfr said..

SoloPelican said..
... The contradictions in board designs really come down to the rider adjusting the technique to ride through touchdowns and other situations.
... I recommend anyone that develops a strong opinion on the matter be sure to really ride (for many sessions) other design types before forming too strong an opinion.

Excellent points. The only problem is that testing new gear is often limited to one session, for example at a demo day. When buying new gear, there's a lot more time and incentive to figure out how to use it.

So true. It takes longer than a session or two to really start appreciating a shape that's different. And of course it would be strange to demo a board until you master all what it can teach you. A tricky situation for sure.

Speaking of touchdowns during the cutbacks - I have noticed that with this particular shape it's very OK to stand a bit further back on the board, with a narrower stance (while already foiling and going with good speed). This helps to trim the board such a way that when it touches during a turn the nose area stays clear of the water, and then the center part touching is not a big deal. At least when winging it's super easy to recover from such touchdowns. And yes, the board feels balanced with such a stance, you don't need to stand too far forward.


Here in this clip is a good example of the same - having a narrower stance, standing quite a bit further back on the board, and it behaves pretty well during that kind of touchdowns that happen in the middle of the turn, while the board is banked to its side (second turn in the clip).

Another marvel with rounded rails. The ones who say it does not work (because of physics), and say their board with hard rails is somehow superior, will need to go and get the physics classes again. Plenty of touchdowns (while turning), to convince anyone that rounded rails are not your enemy. Lighten up people, every design has their positives and negatives. and if you can't enjoy the variety then so be it. No need to be so close minded.

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Taavi said..
Another marvel with rounded rails. The ones who say it does not work (because of physics), and say their board with hard rails is somehow superior, will need to go and get the physics classes again. Plenty of touchdowns (while turning), to convince anyone that rounded rails are not your enemy. Lighten up people, every design has their positives and negatives. and if you can't enjoy the variety then so be it. No need to be so close minded.

Well stated.
I will note that your videos show the most groomed conditions I've ever seen. You could glass up a piece of dock foam and I bet it'd work in those conditions!
Great reviews, keep em coming!

On the same exact topic. The Generic Foiling Podcasts no 91 with Franks Foiliboards explains it well @ 58:00 minutes. He covers there the mid-turn touchdowns beautifully and clearly, and this is what this thread was all about - touchdowns while doing a cutback.

open.spotify.com/episode/4qmYIf3cBdlqFcjrlARmNO