With all the various brands of carbon foil for wing foiling now available, if price point was not an issue, what foil brand would or could be considered 'the best'? And why?

For wing foiling specifically? MikesLab.

+1 for Mikes lab.Ridden one once and its special.Heaps of speed, heaps of grip and glide.Downsides are there as well:tuttlebox sucks to get right on a board and working with a plate connector isnt just as sweet, waitinglist of 1year+, .the monobloc planes are harder to transport and more fragile as an woke ego.


So i went for the more available still freaking good AFS foils

The foil on which you have the most fun. I think foils are a bit like car seats, one particular set up really works for you, whatever the brand, at the beginning Takuma, Starboard and Axxis got a lot of people out on the water, now I think we are all watching what the brands will bring next

If money is not an issue, and you're not into racing, then go with a brand that innovates on a regular basis. Part of the fun is buying new stuff every year - new is always better . There's still plenty of room for improvement, as the most recent lines from Axis and Starboard (and probably a few other brands) show.

Choice will be dependent on style but I've ridden a ton of gear and really feel as though AFS is as good as it can get for me. Best surf foils in the world, awesome craftsmanship, excellent customer service. Hard to ask for much more!

Just had a look at the AFS foils, they look good and share a few things with Mikes Lab foils: fuze/mast connection, frontwing & fuze in 1 piece etc
But if you take the high end combo you come close to Mikes Lab prices (if you buy it in your own continent - from Stef if in Europe and from Mike if in the US)

I am riding Mikes Lab and couldn't go back. Rode Sabfoil, Takuma and briefly Axis before
Travelling with it is a pain though...

Best front wing? The one that puts a smile to my face!

Which front that is depends heavily on the conditions and (desired) riding style. With >25knots and >2m swell/waves on the North Sea I tend to like something else than on a supfoil session (usually 0,5m - 1m waves) or downwinder (freshwater and 0,5m bumps). The best foil system would then be the one on which I can easily change set-ups, with the minimum amount of kit and no over-engineering.

I currently ride Sabfoil. One Piuma mast (so I don't need a Quick release), 2 fuselages (due to different front wing connections) and 4 front wings (WRP825, WRP975, WL1150 and WLP1260). I like the WRP975 better than the WRP825 when winging, not sure why, If wind gets strong I will take the WRP825 to manage the wave-energy and speed better. For lightwind winging and downwinders with wing the WLP1260, or wrp 975. The WL1150 takes off earliest so seems to work better in our small and gutless waves. So I prefer that for supfoiling and supfoil-downwind attempts (on lake).

If I have to choose 1 front wing it would be the WRP975. I like the way it flys and I can use it in a wide range of conditions.

For travelling I can take apart everything, but if money was no issue I would have no problem with one-piece-planes and masts. I would drive a small campervan then as well :-).

Fortunately for us, on the user/consumer end, hydrofoil designers are very passionate about their work, to name a few, Starboard, Gong, Axis, Armstrong, GoFoil, Sab, KT.... There are so many factors, efficiency, longevity, user friendliness, performance for specific conditions, quality, speed, turning, reactivity, wind range, durability, ease of fitting, local availability, customer service, cost, wow factor, status factor etc etc, (apparently even colour is important for some people) what is important to the end user?

There isn't a "best foil on the market" and be wary of anyone saying so. Depends on a lot of factors - they all have their pros and cons even within the range within each brand let alone between the brands.

From what I hear Code are the best but out side my price range so I have Axis.

What type of foiling do you do most (freestyle, racing, cruising, aggressive riding)?
What conditions do you ride in (wind, waves, lake vs open ocean)?
What is your physical form (stamina, flexibility, core strength)?
How experienced are you (how is your pumping, are you efficient (getting up on foil), how are your tacks, riding backwinded)?
..you get the idea.

**For me** it is Axis brand as it covers most conditions and Axis Pro 1001 foil specifically as it is the best for my local spots. Is Axis the best for everyone? I don't think so.

It is a highly competitive market. Future foils will be better that what we ride now. The brand that innovates the most will have an edge in 2025, 2026 etc. So far, **I personally** like Axis' innovation (stabs, foils, masts, fuses, shims, how they try different foil parameters and bring their best to the market) so I will keep watching their progress and trying new Axis gear when it comes out.

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boardsurfr said..
go with a brand that innovates on a regular basis. Part of the fun is buying new stuff every year - new is always better

Well, you sure do not read how some people blow a gasket and post angry hate messages when a brand dares releasing a new model in what they consider too soon after they bought their gear. It is as if the new model announce suddenly made their gear less enjoyable.

So even for this, it is personal. Some people prefer brands that keep the same model for a long time, it kinds of reassure them.

There is not a foil "best" for everybody. And as you progress, what is "best" for you may not be what was best for you 6 months ago, nor in 6 months...

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colas said..

There is not a foil "best" for everybody. And as you progress, what is "best" for you may not be what was best for you 6 months ago, nor in 6 months...

This is the best answer I've yet read on this topic. I rode Armstrong foils for the first 4 years of my journey. Updated every time something new came out and found, ultimately, my favorite foils were the HA lines. I mostly (99% of the time) was focused only on riding waves and the newer HA are great for that. Last summer I started dabbling in racing and wanting to go as fast as possible AND still ride waves. The newer HA line simply wasn't fast enough to compete with some of the wings like FOne Eagles etc. I switched foils to the Mikeslab, but could have easily been happy on the FOne. These two are a good combination of fast and surfy (certain sizes) but not overly demanding to ride which suits me now.

This said, if I had tried to ride these foils during my learning phase, I would have been really stretching myself and probably been more frustrated than stoked.

Mike's lab 700 for wave/freeriding and Chubanga V4 for going fast.

My experience is that the best foil is the one you are currently riding on. Once you are on it, it is brilliant.

Omen, Armstrong, AFS, Mike's Lab, Code, Axis, Lift

Mike's Lab

I recently moved from Axis to the ML700. Here are my findings:
- there may be foils that have the same top end but the acceleration of the ML is amazing
- I have yet to find the top end and at no point does the foil feel sketchy
- not sure if it's the foil, the monoblock, the mast or the tuttle connection but I can make the ML700 work in wind down to 12kts (5.5m wing)
- it handles breaches very well- Had some hesitation around the tuttle box but now I love it. Two screws and I'm ready to ride.
- build quality is top notch
- haven't travelled yet but I'll deal with that when the time comes

After riding the ML700 for a while, this foil can do it all. From 12-30kts, flat water to waves, I no longer need any of my Axis gear (ART799, ART999, ART1099, HPS1050)

All I hear about MikesLab is how they don't work well for carving hard in waves. They want to go straight (and are great at that), but they lack the roll looseness of a good surf foil. I haven't ridden them, so this isn't firsthand, but how do others feel about that?

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ruberoid said..
My experience is that the best foil is the one you are currently riding on. Once you are on it, it is brilliant.

Exactly this! For now Sabfoil's Razor Pro is simply the best hahaa.

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colas said..

boardsurfr said..
go with a brand that innovates on a regular basis. Part of the fun is buying new stuff every year - new is always better

Well, you sure do not read how some people blow a gasket and post angry hate messages when a brand dares releasing a new model in what they consider too soon after they bought their gear. It is as if the new model announce suddenly made their gear less enjoyable.

So even for this, it is personal. Some people prefer brands that keep the same model for a long time, it kinds of reassure them.

There is not a foil "best" for everybody. And as you progress, what is "best" for you may not be what was best for you 6 months ago, nor in 6 months...

Yep . although i kinda said this a long way back in this thread. And added - beware of those touting they have or know of the "best" foil.

That being said those mikelab thingies do look and sound bloody nice

Im also intrigued by KTs new line and think AFS have some interesting stuff. Love the f one gear, think the new fireball from axis is a a fine wing, North are bringing some good stuff using UHM carbon on their wings . Code foils (and system) rock .. and I ride Armstrong!! it never ends man, it never ends.

All brands have good foils now, but some are victims of their own success and are stuck with bad connections.

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Faff said..
All brands have good foils now, but some are victims of their own success and are stuck with bad connections.

I think Axis are seen as having a legacy thick connection. They used to have an even thicker system (red fuselage) and now almost completely superceded onto the black fuselage for a few years... perhaps they will go again soon to a slimmer attachment if they continue their trend. At least it is considered stiff and the drag may be compensated by the slim alu fuse (carbon systems like Code seem to be thicker to achieve same stiffness in fuselage)?

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eppo said..
Im also intrigued by KTs new line and think AFS have some interesting stuff. Love the f one gear, think the new fireball from axis is a a fine wing, North are bringing some good stuff using UHM carbon on their wings . Code foils (and system) rock .. and I ride Armstrong!! it never ends man, it never ends.

Did you try the fireball? Interested in what you liked, from someone who has tried a lot of foils? The armstrong HA v2 seems to be an excellent versatile line from what I've seen from local riders. I know fireball is another step up in aspect ratio but I wonder if it is somewhat of an answer (or catching up) to those other highly rated foils. Would demo if I could..

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Velocicraptor said..
All I hear about MikesLab is how they don't work well for carving hard in waves. They want to go straight (and are great at that), but they lack the roll looseness of a good surf foil. I haven't ridden them, so this isn't firsthand, but how do others feel about that?

I've been riding the 700 and 340 in surf for the last several days, anyone saying that hasn't tried them.

Im new to the mikeslab foils, switched over from Armstrong 680 and 580. This week we've had solid 15-20+ winds and some overhead swell, the ML take some getting used to but are amazing on a wave. I just got the 340 and two sessions in I can't believe how user friendly it is and fun on steep or fast moving swell. As long as the wave has enough juice, it even has some glide to it when flagging and can turn tight and fast. I honestly expected the 340 to be a speed only wing.

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Powis said..

Faff said..
All brands have good foils now, but some are victims of their own success and are stuck with bad connections.

I think Axis are seen as having a legacy thick connection. They used to have an even thicker system (red fuselage) and now almost completely superceded onto the black fuselage for a few years... perhaps they will go again soon to a slimmer attachment if they continue their trend. At least it is considered stiff and the drag may be compensated by the slim alu fuse (carbon systems like Code seem to be thicker to achieve same stiffness in fuselage)?

eppo said..
Im also intrigued by KTs new line and think AFS have some interesting stuff. Love the f one gear, think the new fireball from axis is a a fine wing, North are bringing some good stuff using UHM carbon on their wings . Code foils (and system) rock .. and I ride Armstrong!! it never ends man, it never ends.

Did you try the fireball? Interested in what you liked, from someone who has tried a lot of foils? The armstrong HA v2 seems to be an excellent versatile line from what I've seen from local riders. I know fireball is another step up in aspect ratio but I wonder if it is somewhat of an answer (or catching up) to those other highly rated foils. Would demo if I could..

nah i never did get the chance but watched Shannon stent make it sing prone and DW plus had convos with him about it. It all checked out what he was saying.

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Powis said..

Faff said..
All brands have good foils now, but some are victims of their own success and are stuck with bad connections.

I think Axis are seen as having a legacy thick connection. They used to have an even thicker system (red fuselage) and now almost completely superceded onto the black fuselage for a few years... perhaps they will go again soon to a slimmer attachment if they continue their trend. At least it is considered stiff and the drag may be compensated by the slim alu fuse (carbon systems like Code seem to be thicker to achieve same stiffness in fuselage)?

All foils where the mast is inserted into the fuse suffer from carbon wear. And the fewer connections the better. Only a few brands have this right.

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Oahuwaterwalker said..

Velocicraptor said..
All I hear about MikesLab is how they don't work well for carving hard in waves. They want to go straight (and are great at that), but they lack the roll looseness of a good surf foil. I haven't ridden them, so this isn't firsthand, but how do others feel about that?

I've been riding the 700 and 340 in surf for the last several days, anyone saying that hasn't tried them.

Im new to the mikeslab foils, switched over from Armstrong 680 and 580. This week we've had solid 15-20+ winds and some overhead swell, the ML take some getting used to but are amazing on a wave. I just got the 340 and two sessions in I can't believe how user friendly it is and fun on steep or fast moving swell. As long as the wave has enough juice, it even has some glide to it when flagging and can turn tight and fast. I honestly expected the 340 to be a speed only wing.

Sorry, tired brain edit on first line.

"I've been riding the 700 and 340 in surf for the last several days, anyone saying that hasn't tried them."

Supposed to read, "I've tried a few (340, 600, 700, 800) in big rollers and breaking surf and anyone saying they only go straight hasn't tried them"

The standouts i'm surf so far are the 700, 600, and 340. The 800 is still fun but it's more of a glider than a ripper. Any of the there smaller can be ridden hard on a wave.

I

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Faff said..

Powis said..

Faff said..
All brands have good foils now, but some are victims of their own success and are stuck with bad connections.

I think Axis are seen as having a legacy thick connection. They used to have an even thicker system (red fuselage) and now almost completely superceded onto the black fuselage for a few years... perhaps they will go again soon to a slimmer attachment if they continue their trend. At least it is considered stiff and the drag may be compensated by the slim alu fuse (carbon systems like Code seem to be thicker to achieve same stiffness in fuselage)?

All foils where the mast is inserted into the fuse suffer from carbon wear. And the fewer connections the better. Only a few brands have this right.

In theory i agree. Some excellent "systems" out there now. That being said we have done 100s of hours on such a system with no wear whatsoever so I am still waiting for the theory to match reality. One day maybe.

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eppo said..

Faff said..

Powis said..

Faff said..
All brands have good foils now, but some are victims of their own success and are stuck with bad connections.

I think Axis are seen as having a legacy thick connection. They used to have an even thicker system (red fuselage) and now almost completely superceded onto the black fuselage for a few years... perhaps they will go again soon to a slimmer attachment if they continue their trend. At least it is considered stiff and the drag may be compensated by the slim alu fuse (carbon systems like Code seem to be thicker to achieve same stiffness in fuselage)?

All foils where the mast is inserted into the fuse suffer from carbon wear. And the fewer connections the better. Only a few brands have this right.

In theory i agree. Some excellent "systems" out there now. That being said we have done 100s of hours on such a system with no wear whatsoever so I am still waiting for the theory to match reality. One day maybe.

Do you jump?

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Faff said..

eppo said..

Faff said..

Powis said..

Faff said..
All brands have good foils now, but some are victims of their own success and are stuck with bad connections.

I think Axis are seen as having a legacy thick connection. They used to have an even thicker system (red fuselage) and now almost completely superceded onto the black fuselage for a few years... perhaps they will go again soon to a slimmer attachment if they continue their trend. At least it is considered stiff and the drag may be compensated by the slim alu fuse (carbon systems like Code seem to be thicker to achieve same stiffness in fuselage)?

All foils where the mast is inserted into the fuse suffer from carbon wear. And the fewer connections the better. Only a few brands have this right.

In theory i agree. Some excellent "systems" out there now. That being said we have done 100s of hours on such a system with no wear whatsoever so I am still waiting for the theory to match reality. One day maybe.

Do you jump?

My son does and probably a lot higher and harder than most.

Im not discounting completely your theory - and there are examples of such wear - you when you compare this to the tens of thousands of units sold world wide - it's hard to make a definitive case for this theory.

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Faff said..

Powis said..

Faff said..
All brands have good foils now, but some are victims of their own success and are stuck with bad connections.

I think Axis are seen as having a legacy thick connection. They used to have an even thicker system (red fuselage) and now almost completely superceded onto the black fuselage for a few years... perhaps they will go again soon to a slimmer attachment if they continue their trend. At least it is considered stiff and the drag may be compensated by the slim alu fuse (carbon systems like Code seem to be thicker to achieve same stiffness in fuselage)?

All foils where the mast is inserted into the fuse suffer from carbon wear. And the fewer connections the better. Only a few brands have this right.

Only if you ever disassemble your foil...I find the bolt torque i need to get a foil where i want it in terms of connection stiffness is so high taking apart a foil isn't practical. My foil goes together with a torque wrench and marine sealant when i buy it and comes apart when i sell it.

For me, riding prone in alot of challenging conditions, i find stiffness to be super critical. We've thankly solved the mast stiffness side of things but connection stiffness and fuse stiffness are still areas for improvement. The socket connection specifically, with a carbon molded mast component(not an aluminum adapter for corroion reasons) in a metal fuse socket (stainless or aluminum) is FANTASTIC. I'm running absolutely 0 connection movement right now with some HIGHLY loaded testing - testing that would make you very unhappy if i handled your foil like that - and thats just my on the beach about to grab a session want to feel my foil to make sure its OK testing.

I don't think what i'm running is the best for everyone but its the best for me - North SF 930 front, aluminum fuse(kicks the carbon fuses ass), and a broken high end mast that i custom fit to the fuse(made stainelsshardware inserts and poured thickend epoxy around the mast in the fuse cavity). I've got about $700 total invested in the setup and the stiffness is incredible. One clever thing that north did for the front wing connection thats really clever is the fuse has a concave surface and the wing is flat at the connection so the fasteners are flexing the wing at the connection and pre-loading the fibers which seems like it makes for a super stiff front wing conneciton despite being a rather simplistic design.

Same mast fuse socket design in carbon is garbage. Not stiff for use and/or crack in agressive use. Carbon is just not as good for that socket connection. Maybe the connections like the AFS are better in carbon than the socket but i find even independent of the connection movement there is a noticable increase in stiffness of the aluminum fuse vs the carbon.

For me, there's some subjective measures on wing shape etc. but i think those are up for opinion and, frankly, alot of brands are making a GOOD wing and having a good wing that hits the nail on the head in terms of size, AR, span, etc beats having the best wing design and its not the right size so don't be afraid to get a brand that suits you. To answer the original question if money were no object i'd be riding an omen 850. Metal fuse, tight socket, stiff mast, wings look good, carbon rear fuse (bonus - metal where you need it carbon where you don't)

Honestly thought i think the real answer is Mikes Lab mostly because this is the winging forum and having a nice foil only matters in winging when your racing! I wing on my surf foil these days only because i'm too lazy to switch my winging rig onto my prone board and not carrying it around saves room in my car. All things being equal i'd be winging on this piece of garbage Uni Vyper 150 ($150) on a 80cm scratched cedrus aluminum ($150) just to save wear and tear on my "nice" surf foil.

Also out of all the connection systems Armstrong is the worst!