My Black series came with a +2 shim.
I have installed it in conjunction with my 1050 front wing and 370 rear wing.
All good until towards 30 kph speed when I have breached a few time despite moving feet and weight forward plus slightly moving the mast back.
Advice please.

Select to expand quote

warwickl said..
My Black series came with a +2 shim.
I have installed it in conjunction with my 1050 front wing and 370 rear wing.
All good until towards 30 kph speed when I have breached a few time despite moving feet and weight forward plus slightly moving the mast back.
Advice please.

Have you tried it without the shim?

Select to expand quote

bigtone667 said..

warwickl said..
My Black series came with a +2 shim.
I have installed it in conjunction with my 1050 front wing and 370 rear wing.
All good until towards 30 kph speed when I have breached a few time despite moving feet and weight forward plus slightly moving the mast back.
Advice please.

Have you tried it without the shim?

U know my restrictions for getting on the water.
As such asking for others experience to get me ready for when I get on the water.

Select to expand quote

warwickl said..

bigtone667 said..

warwickl said..
My Black series came with a +2 shim.
I have installed it in conjunction with my 1050 front wing and 370 rear wing.
All good until towards 30 kph speed when I have breached a few time despite moving feet and weight forward plus slightly moving the mast back.
Advice please.

Have you tried it without the shim?

U know my restrictions for getting on the water.
As such asking for others experience to get me ready for when I get on the water.

Cold water and sand?

That is a 1500cm2 foil?.
Unless you are really heavy around 30kph is probably close to the top speed of that foil before you run into control problems.

Faster you go the less AOA you need to create the same lift.But at a certain AOA (and below) the foil will become supersensitive in pitch.

Close to the speed limit:
-Tiny increase in AOA=Big lift surge and breach.
-Tiny decrease in AOA=foil tips create negative lift (due to twist) and you get a total lift dump and drop.Feels like a stall but it is not.

You can wear ballast or ride a smaller foil to go faster.Or became superskilled at riding in the twitchy zone.

With a kite you should be able to push that same foil faster by creating a sideload and leaning the foil over.Same effect as carrying more weight.

The smaller stabs shimmed to low negative lift angles will let you get to the limits of the front foil with less drag and front foot pressure,but even stabless you will eventually run into this low AOA limit.

Wow thanks for that and it makes sense.
I now have a 420 rear wing yet to try and will remove the shim.
Stay tuned.

Select to expand quote

mcrt said..
That is a 1500cm2 foil?.
Unless you are really heavy around 30kph is probably close to the top speed of that foil before you run into control problems.

Faster you go the less AOA you need to create the same lift.But at a certain AOA (and below) the foil will become supersensitive in pitch.

Close to the speed limit:
-Tiny increase in AOA=Big lift surge and breach.
-Tiny decrease in AOA=foil tips create negative lift (due to twist) and you get a total lift dump and drop.Feels like a stall but it is not.

You can wear ballast or ride a smaller foil to go faster.Or became superskilled at riding in the twitchy zone.

With a kite you should be able to push that same foil faster by creating a sideload and leaning the foil over.Same effect as carrying more weight.

The smaller stabs shimmed to low negative lift angles will let you get to the limits of the front foil with less drag and front foot pressure,but even stabless you will eventually run into this low AOA limit.

Thanks mcrt. The concept of the foil having a speed limit makes sense now.

I'm new to foiling.

I use a Axis HPS 980 and find it easily gets to 15knots (28km/h) and the I don't feel confident pushing it faster.

Have changed from a 400mm rear wing to a 400mm High aspect rear wing. But maximum speed has not yet increased. (still testing)

The 400mm rear wing with no shim had a speed dependent front foot pressure that increased as the board went faster.
The 400mm HA has no speed dependent front foot pressure and the foil is now at front of track and even drilled out the threaded holes to move foil further forward. Board feels balanced, loose and easily gets to 15knots, but have not managed to go faster, as I feel 15knots is the speed limit/ skill limit.

When shimming what feel are you looking for?
Should you be aiming to shim to eliminate speed dependent front foot pressure, or to reduce it to a small amount?
Currently I have none and I suspect I would benefit by having a little bit more... will try a thin shim next sail.

Will get a smaller front foil eventually. But loving the HSP 980 goes up wind and down wind like a formula board...

Also suspect a smaller foil will just go faster and hit a new limit, have to get use to not focusing on speed but playing on waves which I think wing foiling is all about...

Select to expand quote

warwickl said..
My Black series came with a +2 shim.
I have installed it in conjunction with my 1050 front wing and 370 rear wing.
All good until towards 30 kph speed when I have breached a few time despite moving feet and weight forward plus slightly moving the mast back.
Advice please.

It's a one degree shim and it's main use is for the 420 and 380 ultra thin fast stabs. Not the chunky monkey draggy old tails like the 370.

Select to expand quote

Steven F said..


Thanks mcrt. The concept of the foil having a speed limit makes sense now.

I'm new to foiling.

I use a Axis HPS 980 and find it easily gets to 15knots (28km/h) and the I don't feel confident pushing it faster.

Have changed from a 400mm rear wing to a 400mm High aspect rear wing. But maximum speed has not yet increased. (still testing)

The 400mm rear wing with no shim had a speed dependent front foot pressure that increased as the board went faster.
The 400mm HA has no speed dependent front foot pressure and the foil is now at front of track and even drilled out the threaded holes to move foil further forward. Board feels balanced, loose and easily gets to 15knots, but have not managed to go faster, as I feel 15knots is the speed limit/ skill limit.

When shimming what feel are you looking for?
Should you be aiming to shim to eliminate speed dependent front foot pressure, or to reduce it to a small amount?
Currently I have none and I suspect I would benefit by having a little bit more... will try a thin shim next sail.

Will get a smaller front foil eventually. But loving the HSP 980 goes up wind and down wind like a formula board...

Also suspect a smaller foil will just go faster and hit a new limit, have to get use to not focusing on speed but playing on waves which I think wing foiling is all about...

I am also more interested in the general playfulness of the wingfoil and not the max speed.

As for shims/stabs i ride a Takuma Kujira and they are on the front footed side.Recently i have chopped the stab to 31cm span and it has become super surfy ,even in ridiculous chop it turns with such zip and exit speed.I have not measured a speed run yet.Front foot pressure is reduced but still there,which i like.

I have ridden Armstrong HS and they were very neutral ,even backfooted,at all speeds.
I prefer increasing front foot pressure because it "tells" how fast i am going just by feel.Kind of personal taste.

I have done 18kt on the Kujira 1210cm2 so your Axis 980 should get up to that (in very flat water!!!) no poblem,just give it time for you to get in tune with the foil and can anticipate the pitch corrections without overdoing.
Skill+Conditions+Gear=Performance

I think most riders go to smaller stabs,shorter fuses and less down angle shims as they get better overall and more used to their foil.

Stabs are a bit like a "training wheel", they tame the front wing making it less responsive in pitch at the cost of drag ,front foot pressure and playfulness.

PS: When i say that foils have a speed limited by surface+rider weight(wing loading) i am talking about our typical modern med HA ,med thin section foils with some twist.
Foil design can change in span,chord ,thickness,camber,curve,sweep,twist etc...at every section of the foil so a dedicated speed foil design can be way faster than what we ride.

There recently was a guy on Insta who hit 30kt (!!) but i cannot remember who or what gear.

Armstrong need setting up - they are not back footed once you get the mast position and shimming right. More dead neutral at all speeds with slight front foot increase at max.

Select to expand quote

DWF said..

warwickl said..
My Black series came with a +2 shim.
I have installed it in conjunction with my 1050 front wing and 370 rear wing.
All good until towards 30 kph speed when I have breached a few time despite moving feet and weight forward plus slightly moving the mast back.
Advice please.

It's a one degree shim and it's main use is for the 420 and 380 ultra thin fast stabs. Not the chunky monkey draggy old tails like the 370.

My Axis shim has + 2 on it.
I also have Moses and do not require shims and no breaching issues even with the 1100.
I have added Axis to my quiver as Moses now SAB new wings etc don't meet my requirements however, I still like my current Moses gear mostly for kitefoiling and some windwing.

You don't need the shims on the Axis , it's not an Armstrong. They run great straight out of the box. Adding a +2 gives you even more tail lift that increases chances of breaching at speed . Throw the Shim away. You'll get the best benefits from using the new tails if you want to play around with something , the new 420 you now have & the 410 are absolute crackers, the 1050 will handle much higher speed than 30kph it's built for speed but still does create tons of lift, the 980 might be a better candidate for you requiring less down force to ride at higher speeds but it's a Black series fuse. ( definitely worth getting )

On all my Axis rigs tails stay flat no shim. Towing , Prone , Sup & Ding . Armstrong or Takuma I shim for all those. Towing gives a great insight to what tail wings can and can't do . We are whipping in at 40+kph and you notice very quickly what the shim does , get it wrong and you are face planting at Mach 1 , get it right and the tail sticks like sh!t to a blanket in big carving high velocity turns. My Golden rule with all new foils I ride is I start with no shims and then go from there.

Select to expand quote

Piros said..
You don't need the shims on the Axis , it's not an Armstrong. They run great straight out of the box. Adding a +2 gives you even more tail lift that increases chances of breaching at speed . Throw the Shim away. You'll get the best benefits from using the new tails if you want to play around with something , the new 420 you now have & the 410 are absolute crackers, the 1050 will handle much higher speed than 30kph it's built for speed but still does create tons of lift, the 980 might be a better candidate for you requiring less down force to ride at higher speeds but it's a Black series fuse. ( definitely worth getting )

On all my Axis rigs tails stay flat no shim. Towing , Prone , Sup & Ding . Armstrong or Takuma I shim for all those. Towing gives a great insight to what tail wings can and can't do . We are whipping in at 40+kph and you notice very quickly what the shim does , get it wrong and you are face planting at Mach 1 , get it right and the tail sticks like sh!t to a blanket in big carving high velocity turns. My Golden rule with all new foils I ride is I start with no shims and then go from there.

Piros,out of curiosity.
What size foils are you hitting +40kph on and aprox how much rider weight (wet&wetsuited)?

I think you had the Kujiras in 980 and 1210 size, do you notice a big difference in top end control?

We are all 75 ,80 to 90 kg , riding Kujira 750 & 980 but we reverse wedge the mast on the 980 for less lift and same on tail . We use a KD Maui 13" tail or 750 Kujira tail. Axis is the 670 with a KD Maui tail 13" . Unifoil 150 Votex . It's 3 tow crews , boards play a big part , North 3-11 , J-S 4-2 . Duotone 4-2 . All seasoned big wave tow crew used to going fast in really ****ty conditions, we genuinely break 40kph every session multiple times. We also use a combo of carbon 76 and 82 Ali & carbon mast. This is because of mast twisting not flexing under load on high speed turns. Re the 1210 it doesn't come into the equation against the 980. It's a fun small wave prone wing and very good ding wing , especially in DW dinging , maintains great speed through the bumps and super forgiving but it turns nothing like the 980 and way off it's top speed as well. Don't tow on it.

We also ran the Armstrong 980 & 1050 but because we tow in sh!t conditions alot , they both have a pretty high stall speed and getting towed around in a 15+ knot onshore breeze they would drop down behind the jetski because it couldn't go fast enough in the slop foiling back out against the swell. Unfortunately for us when it gets really big it's windy on the Goldie . So none of us tow on the Army , not saying it's not good but in all conditions it has it's limits.

Select to expand quote

Piros said..
We are all 75 ,80 to 90 kg , riding Kujira 750 & 980 but we reverse wedge the mast on the 980 for less lift and same on tail . We use a KD Maui 13" tail or 750 Kujira tail. Axis is the 670 with a KD Maui tail 13" . Unifoil 150 Votex . It's 3 tow crews , boards play a big part , North 3-11 , J-S 4-2 . Duotone 4-2 . All seasoned big wave tow crew used to going fast in really ****ty conditions, we genuinely break 40kph every session multiple times. We also use a combo of carbon 76 and 82 Ali & carbon mast. This is because of mast twisting not flexing under load on high speed turns. Re the 1210 it doesn't come into the equation against the 980. It's a fun small wave prone wing and very good ding wing , especially in DW dinging , maintains great speed through the bumps and super forgiving but it turns nothing like the 980 and way off it's top speed as well. Don't tow on it.

We also ran the Armstrong 980 & 1050 but because we tow in sh!t conditions alot , they both have a pretty high stall speed and getting towed around in a 15+ knot onshore breeze they would drop down behind the jetski because it couldn't go fast enough in the slop foiling back out against the swell. Unfortunately for us when it gets really big it's windy on the Goldie . So none of us tow on the Army , not saying it's not good but in all conditions it has it's limits.

Thx!

Hello,

I like my ultra short black fuselage with the 390GAP stab combined with the:
- HPS 1050
- HPS 980
- BSC 810

I recently bought the 380 stab but I experienced, with the 1050 & the 980 (did not try with the 810 yet), a lack of front foot pressure / was "foiling on the back foot" and did not like it.
Tried to move the mast forward and shimmed the stab (rise the back of the stab) > was a little bit better but not good enough, I did not experience the good balance I like with the 390 GAP.

PS: I am an experienced kite foiler (using a micro stab on my Ketos foil) and know that a smaller stab will modify the balance but the 380 makes everything harder and limits my progression.

Any hints? What is your feedback with the 380 stab?

Cheers

R?gis

Select to expand quote

regisurf said..
Hello,

I like my ultra short black fuselage with the 390GAP stab combined with the:
- HPS 1050
- HPS 980
- BSC 810

I recently bought the 380 stab but I experienced, with the 1050 & the 980 (did not try with the 810 yet), a lack of front foot pressure / was "foiling on the back foot" and did not like it.
Tried to move the mast forward and shimmed the stab (rise the back of the stab) > was a little bit better but not good enough, I did not experience the good balance I like with the 390 GAP.

PS: I am an experienced kite foiler (using a micro stab on my Ketos foil) and know that a smaller stab will modify the balance but the 380 makes everything harder and limits my progression.

Any hints? What is your feedback with the 380 stab?

Cheers

R?gis

420 stab with shim is perfect balance and low drag. My wife prefers no shim. It's our weight difference.

Select to expand quote

regisurf said..
Hello,

I like my ultra short black fuselage with the 390GAP stab combined with the:
- HPS 1050
- HPS 980
- BSC 810

I recently bought the 380 stab but I experienced, with the 1050 & the 980 (did not try with the 810 yet), a lack of front foot pressure / was "foiling on the back foot" and did not like it.
Tried to move the mast forward and shimmed the stab (rise the back of the stab) > was a little bit better but not good enough, I did not experience the good balance I like with the 390 GAP.

PS: I am an experienced kite foiler (using a micro stab on my Ketos foil) and know that a smaller stab will modify the balance but the 380 makes everything harder and limits my progression.

Any hints? What is your feedback with the 380 stab?

Cheers

R?gis

I can't ride anything else but the 380. I don't use the shim. It felt draggy I have tried to go back to the 460HA and the 390 and they all feel like draggy ass pigs to me. My first bunch of sessions with the 390 where pitchy. I felt like I was going up and down, almost pumping. I ride it with the ultrashort & 86 carbon mast and either v1 980, 1050 or now almost always the 890bsc. Once I figured out how to quiet down my control inputs, the magic began. With the 890, carving becomes a sixth sense. Every little ankle or toe input translates right through to the foil and stab. It took me a while to learn to control the roll and use it to bank radical turns and slashes. It felt loose in the yah until I got the roll under control. The mast position is crucial to get the perfect equal foot pressure. Don't be afraid to mark your position for each combo with a sharpie (thanks FLkiter). 1 or 2 cm makes a big difference. I predict that you will learn to hate the draggyness of the 390 soon. Once I went thin and slippery, I can't go back to draggy and in-efficientness(sp?). Force a few more sessions on the 380 and it should click.

Select to expand quote

DWF said..

regisurf said..
Hello,

I like my ultra short black fuselage with the 390GAP stab combined with the:
- HPS 1050
- HPS 980
- BSC 810

I recently bought the 380 stab but I experienced, with the 1050 & the 980 (did not try with the 810 yet), a lack of front foot pressure / was "foiling on the back foot" and did not like it.
Tried to move the mast forward and shimmed the stab (rise the back of the stab) > was a little bit better but not good enough, I did not experience the good balance I like with the 390 GAP.

PS: I am an experienced kite foiler (using a micro stab on my Ketos foil) and know that a smaller stab will modify the balance but the 380 makes everything harder and limits my progression.

Any hints? What is your feedback with the 380 stab?

Cheers

R?gis

420 stab with shim is perfect balance and low drag. My wife prefers no shim. It's our weight difference.

+ or - shim / adding lift or decreasing lift / leading edge up or down? Sounds like you are adding lift, yeah?

Select to expand quote

broVan said..

regisurf said..
Hello,

I like my ultra short black fuselage with the 390GAP stab combined with the:
- HPS 1050
- HPS 980
- BSC 810

I recently bought the 380 stab but I experienced, with the 1050 & the 980 (did not try with the 810 yet), a lack of front foot pressure / was "foiling on the back foot" and did not like it.
Tried to move the mast forward and shimmed the stab (rise the back of the stab) > was a little bit better but not good enough, I did not experience the good balance I like with the 390 GAP.

PS: I am an experienced kite foiler (using a micro stab on my Ketos foil) and know that a smaller stab will modify the balance but the 380 makes everything harder and limits my progression.

Any hints? What is your feedback with the 380 stab?

Cheers

R?gis

I can't ride anything else but the 380. I don't use the shim. It felt draggy I have tried to go back to the 460HA and the 390 and they all feel like draggy ass pigs to me. My first bunch of sessions with the 390 where pitchy. I felt like I was going up and down, almost pumping. I ride it with the ultrashort & 86 carbon mast and either v1 980, 1050 or now almost always the 890bsc. Once I figured out how to quiet down my control inputs, the magic began. With the 890, carving becomes a sixth sense. Every little ankle or toe input translates right through to the foil and stab. It took me a while to learn to control the roll and use it to bank radical turns and slashes. It felt loose in the yah until I got the roll under control. The mast position is crucial to get the perfect equal foot pressure. Don't be afraid to mark your position for each combo with a sharpie (thanks FLkiter). 1 or 2 cm makes a big difference. I predict that you will learn to hate the draggyness of the 390 soon. Once I went thin and slippery, I can't go back to draggy and in-efficientness(sp?). Force a few more sessions on the 380 and it should click.

+1 for dropping the 390 GAP .. The 420 transformed how the 890BSC and 880HPS worked. More controlled lift, neutral foot pressure.. faster .. and no more of that funny cavitation at speed in cross chop that i used to get with the 390 ..

My wife noticed the immediate improvement on first run too ..

Tried + shims with 390 and 420 but they had negative effect on everything.. i thought a -1 shim might improve the 390 stab but never tried it..

Ps.. Run Short fuse, 82cm alu mast, 880 HPS and 890 + 740 BSC with 420 stab.. My wife uses Standard fuse with 890/420 ..
Both always go right forward in the track boxes ..

Select to expand quote

broVan said..

regisurf said..
Hello,

I like my ultra short black fuselage with the 390GAP stab combined with the:
- HPS 1050
- HPS 980
- BSC 810

I recently bought the 380 stab but I experienced, with the 1050 & the 980 (did not try with the 810 yet), a lack of front foot pressure / was "foiling on the back foot" and did not like it.
Tried to move the mast forward and shimmed the stab (rise the back of the stab) > was a little bit better but not good enough, I did not experience the good balance I like with the 390 GAP.

PS: I am an experienced kite foiler (using a micro stab on my Ketos foil) and know that a smaller stab will modify the balance but the 380 makes everything harder and limits my progression.

Any hints? What is your feedback with the 380 stab?

Cheers

R?gis

I can't ride anything else but the 380. I don't use the shim. It felt draggy I have tried to go back to the 460HA and the 390 and they all feel like draggy ass pigs to me. My first bunch of sessions with the 390 where pitchy. I felt like I was going up and down, almost pumping. I ride it with the ultrashort & 86 carbon mast and either v1 980, 1050 or now almost always the 890bsc. Once I figured out how to quiet down my control inputs, the magic began. With the 890, carving becomes a sixth sense. Every little ankle or toe input translates right through to the foil and stab. It took me a while to learn to control the roll and use it to bank radical turns and slashes. It felt loose in the yah until I got the roll under control. The mast position is crucial to get the perfect equal foot pressure. Don't be afraid to mark your position for each combo with a sharpie (thanks FLkiter). 1 or 2 cm makes a big difference. I predict that you will learn to hate the draggyness of the 390 soon. Once I went thin and slippery, I can't go back to draggy and in-efficientness(sp?). Force a few more sessions on the 380 and it should click.

Okay, thks for your clear answer, I'll try the 380 again.

Select to expand quote

Smeee said..

broVan said..

regisurf said..
Hello,

I like my ultra short black fuselage with the 390GAP stab combined with the:
- HPS 1050
- HPS 980
- BSC 810

I recently bought the 380 stab but I experienced, with the 1050 & the 980 (did not try with the 810 yet), a lack of front foot pressure / was "foiling on the back foot" and did not like it.
Tried to move the mast forward and shimmed the stab (rise the back of the stab) > was a little bit better but not good enough, I did not experience the good balance I like with the 390 GAP.

PS: I am an experienced kite foiler (using a micro stab on my Ketos foil) and know that a smaller stab will modify the balance but the 380 makes everything harder and limits my progression.

Any hints? What is your feedback with the 380 stab?

Cheers

R?gis

I can't ride anything else but the 380. I don't use the shim. It felt draggy I have tried to go back to the 460HA and the 390 and they all feel like draggy ass pigs to me. My first bunch of sessions with the 390 where pitchy. I felt like I was going up and down, almost pumping. I ride it with the ultrashort & 86 carbon mast and either v1 980, 1050 or now almost always the 890bsc. Once I figured out how to quiet down my control inputs, the magic began. With the 890, carving becomes a sixth sense. Every little ankle or toe input translates right through to the foil and stab. It took me a while to learn to control the roll and use it to bank radical turns and slashes. It felt loose in the yah until I got the roll under control. The mast position is crucial to get the perfect equal foot pressure. Don't be afraid to mark your position for each combo with a sharpie (thanks FLkiter). 1 or 2 cm makes a big difference. I predict that you will learn to hate the draggyness of the 390 soon. Once I went thin and slippery, I can't go back to draggy and in-efficientness(sp?). Force a few more sessions on the 380 and it should click.

+1 for dropping the 390 GAP .. The 420 transformed how the 890BSC and 880HPS worked. More controlled lift, neutral foot pressure.. faster .. and no more of that funny cavitation at speed in cross chop that i used to get with the 390 ..

My wife noticed the immediate improvement on first run too ..

Tried + shims with 390 and 420 but they had negative effect on everything.. i thought a -1 shim might improve the 390 stab but never tried it..

Ps.. Run Short fuse, 82cm alu mast, 880 HPS and 890 + 740 BSC with 420 stab.. My wife uses Standard fuse with 890/420 ..
Both always go right forward in the track boxes ..

Thanks, I'll work my way to the 380, first using the 420.

I've been riding the 930 extensively w/ultrashort and KDmaui tail. Tried it with and without the shim, multiple different sports, different speeds/wave sizes, as well as different locations in the box.

I find it's too squirrelly and nose dives (strong forward pitching moment) without the shim on big turns. Been riding it with the tail shim and the mast a little farther back to counter the front foot pressure; it's great and carves amazing.

I mainly use the 980, 810, 700 all with ultrashort black fuse.

There are 2 tail shims, -1 front shim (less lift), +1 rear shim (more lift).
With the black fuse I recommend using the -1 front shim if you are using any of the older stabs, i.e. the 390/370/340 they all have lots of lift, which creates lots of drag, so get rid of some of that lift/drag with the -1 front shim.

I only use a kane tail now, and was using it with the +1 rear shim, but often that felt too draggy, so I made my own shim that isn't quite as thick. I feel like the wings turn better with the full +1 rear shim, but i don't like the drag. when towing with the 700 I don't use any shims.