Scratching my own itch (again), might be helpful to someone:

Nice one :)Somewhere I read that the ART999 has a lower stall speed but that the Sab W1000 has a lot higher top speed/less drag given the feel that although they are very close in sizing they operate in a different window of usage. Did you notice something like that?

Also funny to hear that prices differ regional, in Europe SAB is about 50,- cheaper on li price but every shop gives you a 10-15% discount on that, so realistically aprox 200,- cheaper as Axis that is overal sold for the list price.

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Jeroensurf said..
Nice one :)Somewhere I read that the ART999 has a lower stall speed but that the Sab W1000 has a lot higher top speed/less drag given the feel that although they are very close in sizing they operate in a different window of usage. Did you notice something like that?

Also funny to hear that prices differ regional, in Europe SAB is about 50,- cheaper on li price but every shop gives you a 10-15% discount on that, so realistically aprox 200,- cheaper as Axis that is overal sold for the list price.

I'd say the opposite, it's easier to control ART 999 than W1000 at high speed, as for the top speed, I didn't have a chance to try the ART 999 in flat-ish water, but in the messy chop it's cruising speed ~17 knots, the same as W1000, in flat water on W1000 I was able to push ~23 knots for 10+ seconds, but it's really twitchy, maybe one can do ~25 knots at best (with the hand wing), the ART 999 should be a bit faster / easier to control at high speed.

My experience with SAB and Axis is (SAB W1000 and Axis ART 999 are a good example) SAB have thinner profile and are faster however, Axis have smoother better lift plus better glide and control.
I switched from SAB to Axis.

I did in flatwater 55km p/h so 29 knots for 5sec but agree that it isnt an easy to use foil. I always blame my (lack off) skills.btw: I switched to the Cab H foils but kept the 1000 and 1110 hoping I grow into them :)

Need to add in the Fone Eagle, 990/1099. Super fast and much better than the ART in every way. Lively, points 20 degrees higher and very balanced

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King Crash said..
Need to add in the Fone Eagle, 990/1099. Super fast and much better than the ART in every way. Lively, points 20 degrees higher and very balanced

If F-One hooks me up with the wings I'm down to buy one more project cedrus adapter and make a review ;). I've never touched the Eagle wings but it's hard to believe it can get any better than ART, but I'm open minded.

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ArtemN said..
Scratching my own itch (again), might be helpful to someone:

Thanks for the review. How would you say they compare in terms of turning performance?

art999 seems like a great downwind wing, it would be interesting to see how it compares to the sab w1110 even though its 10cm wider.

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King Crash said..
Need to add in the Fone Eagle, 990/1099. Super fast and much better than the ART in every way. Lively, points 20 degrees higher and very balanced

20deg higher, it would have done a tack.

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lobodomar said..

ArtemN said..
Scratching my own itch (again), might be helpful to someone:

Thanks for the review. How would you say they compare in terms of turning performance?

art999 seems like a great downwind wing, it would be interesting to see how it compares to the sab w1110 even though its 10cm wider.

I've had W1110, great wing for light wind days, low stall speed, can still turn despite it's wing span, I think it was a bit too big for my weight. ART 999 with 600 mm fuse and 325p tail turns like crazy, noticeably quicker than W1000/S376/647 fuse, shorter fuse and smaller tail wing play a critical role in turning performance though.

Artem, interesting to hear you talk about the foil noise and the need to round off the pressure side of the trailing edges ala Donaldson..

Do you (or does anyone?) know if this is just the way Axis makes all their foils?

Axis not the only ones of course but seems ridiculous, as consumers, given the price of foils, to have to do stuff like this.

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ArtemN said..

King Crash said..
Need to add in the Fone Eagle, 990/1099. Super fast and much better than the ART in every way. Lively, points 20 degrees higher and very balanced

If F-One hooks me up with the wings I'm down to buy one more project cedrus adapter and make a review ;). I've never touched the Eagle wings but it's hard to believe it can get any better than ART, but I'm open minded.

There are plenty of Eagles around, I've ridden ART wings and thought they were okay, but was never amazed. I religiously used them for quite a few months, so I can say I've a decent background riding them.

ART was quite poorly balanced and consistently needed band-aids to make it work. New fuse, smaller and smaller tails, countless front and tail shims to reduce lift. 1099 Eagle is as lively and as playful as the ART 799 but 370cm2 bigger. The height and ability to point higher and faster is amazing. Glide is incredible and overall supremely balanced.

The Eagle doesn't have the biggest flaw that the ART has. This is most peoples biggest gripe - Excessive lift at speed, the faster you go on ART's you need to go further back in the box or have both feet well in front of the foil. Eagle no issues, just balanced.


Also noting - 20 degrees and you'll tack. No, I'm still pointing higher upwind. I'm able to point higher in the wind window.

Odd how things work differently for different people, possibly not so odd I guess as we are all human.
I have Axis ART 899 and 799 no adjustments, shims etc, use with 350p stab. I am not as fast as many but have done 35.8kph and comfortable.
Wings are 4m and 5.5 Duotone dlabs and if I could go up wind higher it would almost force me to tack.

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warwickl said..
Odd how things work differently for different people, possibly not so odd I guess as we are all human.
I have Axis ART 899 and 799 no adjustments, shims etc, use with 350p stab. I am not as fast as many but have done 35.8kph and comfortable.
Wings are 4m and 5.5 Duotone dlabs and if I could go up wind higher it would almost force me to tack.

Same. I've been riding the 999/377p/ultrashort/960 combo for months now and have never even thought about tuning it. Perhaps I just adjust to what I'm riding or I don't have enough experience with different gear. This combo has plenty of lift early in the range and I've never felt like I had too much lift in higher winds. I even threw on the 460 tail just as a comparison and the stability and turning were different (as expected)and I still had no excessive lift issues at higher speeds. And to be clear, higher speeds for me is right around 20kts according to my watch but I always take those numbers with a grain of salt.

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natho6026961 said..
Artem, interesting to hear you talk about the foil noise and the need to round off the pressure side of the trailing edges ala Donaldson..

Do you (or does anyone?) know if this is just the way Axis makes all their foils?

Axis not the only ones of course but seems ridiculous, as consumers, given the price of foils, to have to do stuff like this.

I'd guess that about 10-20% of even good quality foil wings/stabs/masts can be noisy from new. The difference between a quiet and noisy trailing edge can be tenths of a millimetre in the way it is shaped. That's pretty difficult to control in manufacture and is only obvious once the foil is used the first time

sabfoil.com/en/blog/whistling-hydrofoil-sand-foil?fbclid=IwAR0AGjsc5fC1d_PBxHX0o48heGkRfGcGb0KoAaiRGAMjdmtzwIJbvqF95dQ

I have both wings and the Sab is much more stable at high speeds. It's designed for pure straight line speed so not really fair to compare two totally different wings. The ART is more for surf and thus will be more pump n glide and be playful especially with the advance fuselage and smaller p stabs.
The ART wings are very front foot heavy and keeps generating more lift at speed whilst sab will "plateau" at high speed and be more stable, you can really push it hard and not worry about breaching.
And yes the Fone eagle is even better and more of an all rounder than those two (rode the 990), it's the most recent of the 3 so more refined. It's incredibly balanced, stable and playful. Loved it. Shame Fone comes at a premium down under...

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simonp65 said..

natho6026961 said..
Artem, interesting to hear you talk about the foil noise and the need to round off the pressure side of the trailing edges ala Donaldson..

Do you (or does anyone?) know if this is just the way Axis makes all their foils?

Axis not the only ones of course but seems ridiculous, as consumers, given the price of foils, to have to do stuff like this.

I'd guess that about 10-20% of even good quality foil wings/stabs/masts can be noisy from new. The difference between a quiet and noisy trailing edge can be tenths of a millimetre in the way it is shaped. That's pretty difficult to control in manufacture and is only obvious once the foil is used the first time

Hey man yeah I get what you mean, but Artem's saying the trailing edge of his Axis foils were "crazy square". This sounds like zero effort in manufacture so wondering if it's a common thing or just a one-off. Compared to Sabfoil, which tend to be very sharp and can need rounding off to avoid getting sliced. Even so I have one Sabfoil combo, pretty sure it's the stab, that makes noise that I need to sort out.

This is normal for all axis foils. Mine don't whistle.

ArtemN ART999 with a lower stall speed did it help improve your tacks as compare to W1000 as shown in your other video? I am also looking for my first all around forgiving HA wing.

Off topic but tried the Takuma Kujira 1440 on the high end and 1095 and they could be the forgiving HA wings I was looking for.

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Frankieboy said..
Off topic but tried the Takuma Kujira 1440 on the high end and 1095 and they could be the forgiving HA wings I was looking for.

I have both those Kujira. Again completely different design and they have a lower aspect ratio at 8.x and technically not high aspect. And yes the Kujiras are some of the most forgiving and fun foils

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Ingenuity said..
ArtemN ART999 with a lower stall speed did it help improve your tacks as compare to W1000 as shown in your other video? I am also looking for my first all around forgiving HA wing.

The extra glide of the 999 is helpful but still a wide span wing isn't that easy to do tight carving. The Fone Eagle is the most stable HA wing around AR 9/10.

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Alysum said..

Ingenuity said..
ArtemN ART999 with a lower stall speed did it help improve your tacks as compare to W1000 as shown in your other video? I am also looking for my first all around forgiving HA wing.

The extra glide of the 999 is helpful but still a wide span wing isn't that easy to do tight carving. The Fone Eagle is the most stable HA wing around AR 9/10.

Have you tried your 999 on an advanced fuse 'cause I can carve even the 1099 really tight on that. Can't imagine a high aspect wing doing it any tighter. 899 is crazy good. Also, if you are a light rider you might want to try -1 shim to give you the stability at high speeds. Unless you've tried these things it's hard to compare. I have no doubt the eagle is epic wing too. Soon to try!

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Sheps said..

Alysum said..

Ingenuity said..
ArtemN ART999 with a lower stall speed did it help improve your tacks as compare to W1000 as shown in your other video? I am also looking for my first all around forgiving HA wing.

The extra glide of the 999 is helpful but still a wide span wing isn't that easy to do tight carving. The Fone Eagle is the most stable HA wing around AR 9/10.

Have you tried your 999 on an advanced fuse 'cause I can carve even the 1099 really tight on that. Can't imagine a high aspect wing doing it any tighter. 899 is crazy good. Also, if you are a light rider you might want to try -1 shim to give you the stability at high speeds. Unless you've tried these things it's hard to compare. I have no doubt the eagle is epic wing too. Soon to try!

This just circles back to what Alysum and I said. These are all bandaids for rushed foils that needed more testing. -1 shim makes it more stable at speed sure and so does coke can layers under the front wing. But these are unideal solutions to problems that shouldn't exist. -1 the tail and it won't turn, whereas the Eagle is plug and play, it's balanced, turns hard, points super hard, glides MUCH further than ART.

There is still great marketing with ART with a lot of good riders on them, but demo what's around and see for yourself.

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Ingenuity said..
ArtemN ART999 with a lower stall speed did it help improve your tacks as compare to W1000 as shown in your other video? I am also looking for my first all around forgiving HA wing.

It's not entirely the stall speed, it's also how quick you can turn it, breaching "forgiveness" and overall control during sharp manoeuvres.

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King Crash said..

...

This just circles back to what Alysum and I said. These are all bandaids for rushed foils that needed more testing. -1 shim makes it more stable at speed sure and so does coke can layers under the front wing. But these are unideal solutions to problems that shouldn't exist. -1 the tail and it won't turn, whereas the Eagle is plug and play, it's balanced, turns hard, points super hard, glides MUCH further than ART.

There is still great marketing with ART with a lot of good riders on them, but demo what's around and see for yourself.

Glides "MUCH further than ART", I need to try it. Anyone in SA has F-One Eagle glider to try?

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King Crash said..

Sheps said..

Alysum said..

Ingenuity said..
ArtemN ART999 with a lower stall speed did it help improve your tacks as compare to W1000 as shown in your other video? I am also looking for my first all around forgiving HA wing.

The extra glide of the 999 is helpful but still a wide span wing isn't that easy to do tight carving. The Fone Eagle is the most stable HA wing around AR 9/10.

Have you tried your 999 on an advanced fuse 'cause I can carve even the 1099 really tight on that. Can't imagine a high aspect wing doing it any tighter. 899 is crazy good. Also, if you are a light rider you might want to try -1 shim to give you the stability at high speeds. Unless you've tried these things it's hard to compare. I have no doubt the eagle is epic wing too. Soon to try!

This just circles back to what Alysum and I said. These are all bandaids for rushed foils that needed more testing. -1 shim makes it more stable at speed sure and so does coke can layers under the front wing. But these are unideal solutions to problems that shouldn't exist. -1 the tail and it won't turn, whereas the Eagle is plug and play, it's balanced, turns hard, points super hard, glides MUCH further than ART.

There is still great marketing with ART with a lot of good riders on them, but demo what's around and see for yourself.

I'm fairness to Axis no foil is perfect out of the box for every rider. Adrian Roper designs and tests his wings throughly and runs simulations as well as having riders test his equipment with many riders before releasing. He has told us that no shims are needed for 85kg riders, negative rear shins for light riders and positive shins for heavier riders. Fine tuning for sure and not needed for most of us.

Interesting thread on the Eagle:

www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Wing-Foiling/Wind-Wings/F-one-Eagle-High-Aspect?page=1

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Sheps said..

King Crash said..

Sheps said..

Alysum said..

Ingenuity said..
ArtemN ART999 with a lower stall speed did it help improve your tacks as compare to W1000 as shown in your other video? I am also looking for my first all around forgiving HA wing.

The extra glide of the 999 is helpful but still a wide span wing isn't that easy to do tight carving. The Fone Eagle is the most stable HA wing around AR 9/10.

Have you tried your 999 on an advanced fuse 'cause I can carve even the 1099 really tight on that. Can't imagine a high aspect wing doing it any tighter. 899 is crazy good. Also, if you are a light rider you might want to try -1 shim to give you the stability at high speeds. Unless you've tried these things it's hard to compare. I have no doubt the eagle is epic wing too. Soon to try!

This just circles back to what Alysum and I said. These are all bandaids for rushed foils that needed more testing. -1 shim makes it more stable at speed sure and so does coke can layers under the front wing. But these are unideal solutions to problems that shouldn't exist. -1 the tail and it won't turn, whereas the Eagle is plug and play, it's balanced, turns hard, points super hard, glides MUCH further than ART.

There is still great marketing with ART with a lot of good riders on them, but demo what's around and see for yourself.

I'm fairness to Axis no foil is perfect out of the box for every rider. Adrian Roper designs and tests his wings throughly and runs simulations as well as having riders test his equipment with many riders before releasing. He has told us that no shims are needed for 85kg riders, negative rear shins for light riders and positive shins for heavier riders. Fine tuning for sure and not needed for most of us.

Different brands have different release pace and different amount of testing, some brand rush products to the market, some release them later.

Fone has been quite late to the game with the HA wings and that is because they put more R&D into them against an early profit from rushing to the market. For example, they went HM straight away.

The ART were great when they first came out and are still good wings, but it needs more refinements (R in ART stands for Research ). No doubt we'll be seeing HM at some point in the future ART wings.

I highly encourage riders to try as many foils as possible to see for themselves no matter how popular a brand is.

Great to read that progression is being made.
The Sabfoil W1000 was already (available) on the market in 2019 (maybe even before that) and started it's career as a front wing for race/slalom for windfoiling (windsurf as in sail). The characteristics also applied for foiling with a wing and/or for (prone) surf.

In time designers, manufacturers and riders learn and develop new purposes, wishes, demands, designs, constructions, etcetera, I think it's good that the ART 999 surpassed the sabfoil w1000 and is itself being surpassed by the F-one Eagle. Assuming that the expressed experiences are broadly applicable and are caused by the front wings only (in real life combination with fuselage and stabilizer, boards, skill levels, and use cases tend to have an effect).

Would be funny to also test these 3 front wings with a windsurf sail.

That's right

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FlyingPeew said..
Great to read that progression is being made.
The Sabfoil W1000 was already (available) on the market in 2019 (maybe even before that) and started it's career as a front wing for race/slalom for windfoiling (windsurf as in sail). The characteristics also applied for foiling with a wing and/or for (prone) surf.

In time designers, manufacturers and riders learn and develop new purposes, wishes, demands, designs, constructions, etcetera, I think it's good that the ART 999 surpassed the sabfoil w1000 and is itself being surpassed by the F-one Eagle. Assuming that the expressed experiences are broadly applicable and are caused by the front wings only (in real life combination with fuselage and stabilizer, boards, skill levels, and use cases tend to have an effect).

Would be funny to also test these 3 front wings with a windsurf sail.

That's right the w1000 (and w800) was designed for windsurf slalom and was the very first true HA wing, Gunnar used to race wing races with them. They are probably still the best for straight line speed, especially for windsurf where stability at speed is even more crucial. All have different uses/characteristics. For example I think the initial lift of the ART will be trickier to manage on a wind foil for example.