I'm am 64kg intermediate foiler riding a 70L Appleslice V2 for winging on mostly flat water with crappy wind in Idaho, making semi-regular trips to the Gorge (and the Oregon coast). I'll add a Lift 180HAX for when its light, and use my 150HAX when powered up. I'll also very likely add a new school long/narrow floater board this spring. My skills at pumping are pretty poor, but will be putting in the time this year to advance.

I'm wondering now about hand wing sizing for the smaller wings in a new quiver, based on the Armie XPS'.

Exchanges with locals in the Gorge have me thinking to start at 3m XPS on the small end, and I know I'll need a big light wind specific machine on the other end (thinking 7m Ventis, North Loft Pro, other other new TBD offering).

The question is...how is the range on the XPS wings, and how to fill in between a 3m and my big 7m wing???

Reviews suggest these wings have really good range (Armie's chart is below, but looking for advice based on real world experience)...and I'm thinking the quiver would one of the following:

3m, 4m, 5.3m, 7m

3m, 4.6m, 7m

Clearly, cost favors the 3 wing quiver (as does simplicity - less dithering about wing selection)...4 wings give more options to be comfortably powered throughout the range.

What do you say?

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SpokeyDoke said..
I'm am 64kg intermediate foiler riding a 70L Appleslice V2 for winging on mostly flat water with crappy wind in Idaho, making semi-regular trips to the Gorge (and the Oregon coast). I'll add a Lift 180HAX for when its light, and use my 150HAX when powered up. I'll also very likely add a new school long/narrow floater board this spring. My skills at pumping are pretty poor, but will be putting in the time this year to advance.

I'm wondering now about hand wing sizing for the smaller wings in a new quiver, based on the Armie XPS'.

Exchanges with locals in the Gorge have me thinking to start at 3m XPS on the small end, and I know I'll need a big light wind specific machine on the other end (thinking 7m Ventis, North Loft Pro, other other new TBD offering).

The question is...how is the range on the XPS wings, and how to fill in between a 3m and my big 7m wing???

Reviews suggest these wings have really good range (Armie's chart is below, but looking for advice based on real world experience)...and I'm thinking the quiver would one of the following:

3m, 4m, 5.3m, 7m

3m, 4.6m, 7m

Clearly, cost favors the 3 wing quiver (as does simplicity - less dithering about wing selection)...4 wings give more options to be comfortably powered throughout the range.

What do you say?

Sweet spot for 4.6 is 20 knots, which is pretty big. I'm on a 3.0 Slick SLS in that kind of wind. I'm 68-70 kg.

Im an experienced 65kgs with a 2.6, 3.5 and 4.6 XPs. I like that sizing. With the 4.6M and a 85l dw board, I can ride in most light conditions. The smaller span helps me pump the 4.6 well without catching tips like a 5m would. I'm like z5'9".

Below is my experience after six months on the XPS wings.

I use a DW-style mid-length body weight neutral board as a single board quiver, and the biggest foil at the moment is the HA880 (waiting for my 680).




You can't go wrong with these wings. They are good.

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ArthurAlston said..
Below is my experience after six months on the XPS wings.

I use a DW-style mid-length body weight neutral board as a single board quiver, and the biggest foil at the moment is the HA880 (waiting for my 680).




You can't go wrong with these wings. They are good.

This looks far more reasonable.

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ArthurAlston said..
Below is my experience after six months on the XPS wings.

I use a DW-style mid-length body weight neutral board as a single board quiver, and the biggest foil at the moment is the HA880 (waiting for my 680).




You can't go wrong with these wings. They are good.

Where u got this guideline from? Cant find it at the homepage!

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ArthurAlston said..
Below is my experience after six months on the XPS wings.

I use a DW-style mid-length body weight neutral board as a single board quiver, and the biggest foil at the moment is the HA880 (waiting for my 680).




You can't go wrong with these wings. They are good.

Thanks Arthur - you crack me up...very nice work on the graphics though!

Looks like a lot of overlap with the 3m and 4m...you think you would have been happy going 3m to 4.6m? That's what much of this boils down to for me...


I guess the same question goes to @MidAtlanticFoil on the 3.5m to 4.6m spacing; vs 3m to 4.6...

I owned a 6.1 briefly. I found it was too stiff for light air -below 12knts & wouldn't fill up- normal size wing board tho not a DW style. I would stand around with it sticking up erect while those around with sloppier wings were foiling. It was unreal in stronger wind though & made my 5m redundant with it's excellent top end, fantastic handles too. I sold it & got a bagged out 2nd hand 6m with more patches than a hippys jeans & never looked back. I'd love a smaller 2nd hand one next year when people start to update.

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Driks said..

Where u got this guideline from? Cant find it at the homepage!

I made it myself using Armstrong's original graphic on their website.

LIke @Faff, I find the official wind range recommendations don't align with my real world experience. I made this graphic for another thread here on Seabreeze some months ago.

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SpokeyDoke said..

Thanks Arthur - you crack me up...very nice work on the graphics though!

Looks like a lot of overlap with the 3m and 4m...you think you would have been happy going 3m to 4.6m? That's what much of this boils down to for me...


I guess the same question goes to @MidAtlanticFoil on the 3.5m to 4.6m spacing; vs 3m to 4.6...

To answer your question directly: I don't have much overlap between using the 3 and the 4. Each has a distinctive place in my quiver. I think it would be quite a jump from a 4.6 to a 3.

To use @Faff's expression of a sweet spot, for me, the sweet spot range for each of the three wings I have are:
- 5.3: up to 15 knots
- 4: up to 20 knots
- 3: up to 25 knots.

Keep in mind that by the time the wind is strong enough for a 3 or 4, the board you're riding no longer matters (it certainly does in the 10-15 knots range that I use the 5.3 in). I think it's worth clarifying that to provide a reasonable response to your question.

If anything, I tend to downsize quicker than most at my home spot. So if it is anything over a solid 20 knots, I am on the 3. Yes, the 4 can handle more than that (all the wings handle being overpowered and gusts well). Another sign I use to downsize is when the trailing edge momentarily starts fluttering. So I am always happy when I am riding to not have the fluttering because that means I am on the correct size. Another way of saying that, in well over-powered conditions or strong gusts, the fluttering occurs (but only then).


For my local spot, I want to add a 2.6. We often get 25-30 knot days and I find for my preferences, it's too much for the 3. I make it work of course since they are so good at the high end, but I would prefer a 2.6. Also in terms of advice, I would not add a 6.1 - rather go for a DW-style wing board.

I started with two wings to see what they were like at my local based on how I ride and then I added a third. Maybe you could start with one and then build a quiver around that? Especially given your question about the spacing (3 to 4.6).

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MidAtlanticFoil said..
Im an experienced 65kgs with a 2.6, 3.5 and 4.6 XPs. I like that sizing. With the 4.6M and a 85l dw board, I can ride in most light conditions. The smaller span helps me pump the 4.6 well without catching tips like a 5m would. I'm like z5'9".

I like this recommendation for you @SpokeyDoke.

It's a solid all round option. Can handle being over powered quite well. It's especially good for DW which is my preferred mode when no swell. Flags super balanced and super light given it's made from traditional material. Its comparative price point (which is unusual for armstrong gear) is also nice.

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ArthurAlston said..

SpokeyDoke said..

Thanks Arthur - you crack me up...very nice work on the graphics though!

Looks like a lot of overlap with the 3m and 4m...you think you would have been happy going 3m to 4.6m? That's what much of this boils down to for me...


I guess the same question goes to @MidAtlanticFoil on the 3.5m to 4.6m spacing; vs 3m to 4.6...

To answer your question directly: I don't have much overlap between using the 3 and the 4. Each has a distinctive place in my quiver. I think it would be quite a jump from a 4.6 to a 3.

To use @Faff's expression of a sweet spot, for me, the sweet spot range for each of the three wings I have are:
- 5.3: up to 15 knots
- 4: up to 20 knots
- 3: up to 25 knots.

Keep in mind that by the time the wind is strong enough for a 3 or 4, the board you're riding no longer matters (it certainly does in the 10-15 knots range that I use the 5.3 in). I think it's worth clarifying that to provide a reasonable response to your question.

If anything, I tend to downsize quicker than most at my home spot. So if it is anything over a solid 20 knots, I am on the 3. Yes, the 4 can handle more than that (all the wings handle being overpowered and gusts well). Another sign I use to downsize is when the trailing edge momentarily starts fluttering. So I am always happy when I am riding to not have the fluttering because that means I am on the correct size. Another way of saying that, in well over-powered conditions or strong gusts, the fluttering occurs (but only then).


For my local spot, I want to add a 2.6. We often get 25-30 knot days and I find for my preferences, it's too much for the 3. I make it work of course since they are so good at the high end, but I would prefer a 2.6. Also in terms of advice, I would not add a 6.1 - rather go for a DW-style wing board.

I started with two wings to see what they were like at my local based on how I ride and then I added a third. Maybe you could start with one and then build a quiver around that? Especially given your question about the spacing (3 to 4.6).

FWIW, I have only 3.0 and 4.5 SLS slicks @68-70 kg. But by all accounts they are top end wings with mediocre bottom end. (In hindsight should've had a 4.0 instead).

For me I really like my spacing.

Lots of white caps = 2.6M

A few white caps = 3.5M

No white caps = 4.6M

There is some wiggle room with board and foil selection, but that's the gist for me.

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Microsurfer said..
I owned a 6.1 briefly. I found it was too stiff for light air -below 12knts & wouldn't fill up- normal size wing board tho not a DW style. I would stand around with it sticking up erect while those around with sloppier wings were foiling. It was unreal in stronger wind though & made my 5m redundant with it's excellent top end, fantastic handles too. I sold it & got a bagged out 2nd hand 6m with more patches than a hippys jeans & never looked back. I'd love a smaller 2nd hand one next year when people start to update.

I remember reading Armstrong recommending to reduce inflation pressure in light wind.

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Faff said..

Microsurfer said..
I owned a 6.1 briefly. I found it was too stiff for light air -below 12knts & wouldn't fill up- normal size wing board tho not a DW style. I would stand around with it sticking up erect while those around with sloppier wings were foiling. It was unreal in stronger wind though & made my 5m redundant with it's excellent top end, fantastic handles too. I sold it & got a bagged out 2nd hand 6m with more patches than a hippys jeans & never looked back. I'd love a smaller 2nd hand one next year when people start to update.

I remember reading Armstrong recommending to reduce inflation pressure in light wind.

Yeah I also remember Arnie shrugging his shoulders when talking about their low end. They are a great wing & I loved using it when the wind was up but it was not designed as a light wing wind which was what I was after. The canopy is too stiff I think. The 6.1 is really a better mid range wing for a heavy character. I'm not bagging the wing, It was my mistake I just assumed any 6m was for light wind & got the wrong sort of wing for the conditions.

Is anyone here using harness lines with the XPS's? If so what is your preferred way to attach them? They mention 2 little loops between the handle for attachment points but can't see how that would work as they as so close together.

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Microsurfer said..

Faff said..

Microsurfer said..
I owned a 6.1 briefly. I found it was too stiff for light air -below 12knts & wouldn't fill up- normal size wing board tho not a DW style. I would stand around with it sticking up erect while those around with sloppier wings were foiling. It was unreal in stronger wind though & made my 5m redundant with it's excellent top end, fantastic handles too. I sold it & got a bagged out 2nd hand 6m with more patches than a hippys jeans & never looked back. I'd love a smaller 2nd hand one next year when people start to update.

I remember reading Armstrong recommending to reduce inflation pressure in light wind.

Yeah I also remember Arnie shrugging his shoulders when talking about their low end. They are a great wing & I loved using it when the wind was up but it was not designed as a light wing wind which was what I was after. The canopy is too stiff I think. The 6.1 is really a better mid range wing for a heavy character. I'm not bagging the wing, It was my mistake I just assumed any 6m was for light wind & got the wrong sort of wing for the conditions.

I wonder if this applies to other wings as well? There are other wing models with sizes from 2.0 to 8.0. Surely the are all normal to high wind wings with the biggest sizes meant for heavyweights at the bottom of the normal wind range? So if a lightweight wants to foil in sub-10 knots, they are better off with a dedicated 6.0 light wind wing than a "normal" 8.0 wing? OTOH, middleweights claim to be up in 10 knots with a 5.5 Mode Pro, and that wing is advertised as a high wind free race wing (not great bottom end).

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Riihi said..
Is anyone here using harness lines with the XPS's? If so what is your preferred way to attach them? They mention 2 little loops between the handle for attachment points but can't see how that would work as they as so close together.

I have the Armstrong XPS wings in sizes 3.5m and 4.6m. I use a harness line with both wings and it works really well, the wing is very well balanced when using a harness, even though the points are quite close together. One handed riding is possible!

Easiest way to attach a harness line is to thread a short line through the attachment points (Dyneema or paracord) and tie into a knot. Then use a larks head to attach the harness line. Having multiple knots also allows some adjustment in line length. I also put a short plastic tube through the attachment point to spread the load so that the ends of the attachment points aren't under excess stress.

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slashdotdash said..

Riihi said..
Is anyone here using harness lines with the XPS's? If so what is your preferred way to attach them? They mention 2 little loops between the handle for attachment points but can't see how that would work as they as so close together.

I have the Armstrong XPS wings in sizes 3.5m and 4.6m. I use a harness line with both wings and it works really well, the wing is very well balanced when using a harness, even though the points are quite close together. One handed riding is possible!

Easiest way to attach a harness line is to thread a short line through the attachment points (Dyneema or paracord) and tie into a knot. Then use a larks head to attach the harness line. Having multiple knots also allows some adjustment in line length. I also put a short plastic tube through the attachment point to spread the load so that the ends of the attachment points aren't under excess stress.

Thx...pics???

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slashdotdash said..

Riihi said..
Is anyone here using harness lines with the XPS's? If so what is your preferred way to attach them? They mention 2 little loops between the handle for attachment points but can't see how that would work as they as so close together.

I have the Armstrong XPS wings in sizes 3.5m and 4.6m. I use a harness line with both wings and it works really well, the wing is very well balanced when using a harness, even though the points are quite close together. One handed riding is possible!

Easiest way to attach a harness line is to thread a short line through the attachment points (Dyneema or paracord) and tie into a knot. Then use a larks head to attach the harness line. Having multiple knots also allows some adjustment in line length. I also put a short plastic tube through the attachment point to spread the load so that the ends of the attachment points aren't under excess stress.

Thanks for that. That makes sense, but those two loops are so close together between the handles surprised that works. As SpokeyDoke asked if you have a chance to post some pics that would be appreciated.

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Riihi said..
Is anyone here using harness lines with the XPS's? If so what is your preferred way to attach them? They mention 2 little loops between the handle for attachment points but can't see how that would work as they as so close together.

I use the Ozone harness lines. They work a treat. The black tips make it easy to thread through the XPS harness loop. I also used one of the included battens to loosen the loop a bit and also to push the black tip of the harness line through the loop.

These lines work perfectly. The balance is good. I always ride with a harness.

The loops are a bit tight, but after threading the line, I am quite happy with how solidly the harness line attaches to the strut.

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ArthurAlston said..

Riihi said..
Is anyone here using harness lines with the XPS's? If so what is your preferred way to attach them? They mention 2 little loops between the handle for attachment points but can't see how that would work as they as so close together.

I use the Ozone harness lines. They work a treat. The black tips make it easy to thread through the XPS harness loop. I also used one of the included battens to loosen the loop a bit and also to push the black tip of the harness line through the loop.

These lines work perfectly. The balance is good. I always ride with a harness.

The loops are a bit tight, but after threading the line, I am quite happy with how solidly the harness line attaches to the strut.

what harness / hook do you use ?

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eppo said..

what harness / hook do you use ?

I've used this for about two years - there are more updated models from different brands available now. This one still works really well. I attach my wing leash to the harness too.

rideengine.com/collections/vinaka-wing-harness/products/vinaka-wingsurf-v1-harness

yeh that harness looks good.

Here's the home made harness line I'm using. It's a Dyneema rope (3mm) with loops spliced at either end and a plastic (6mm polyurethane) tube to cover the line.

The tube makes it easier to hook in because I found the rope on its own was so light that it would get blown around with the wind. The plastic tube retains its shape and dangles down in such a way that it is simple to hook in. It is still light enough to hold out of the way when pumping the wing or if you get an accidental slap in the face!


Spot the small plastic tube inside the harness attachment point used to spread the load and stop the material at either end from being pulled too much. I've used 3mm paracord through the attachment point, tied into a knot which the harness line is then attached to using a larks head with the end loop. The knot allows some adjustment of the harness line (longer or shorter) and the larks head attachment means it can be removed very easily. I made a similar harness line for both of my XPS wings and leave them permanently attached.

I'm using the Ride Engine Sky Hook Wing Vest which has been good, except the rear D-ring attachment point for a board leash broke after a few months. I did also replace the buckle with a side release click-in buckle to make it easier to get in and out.

The sizing is also pretty tight, so consider getting one size bigger than usual!

rideengine.com/products/sky-hook-wing-vest-v1

The ION Rush Wing Impact Vest looks very good and would be my preferred choice to buy now.

www.ion-products.com/en/us/products/ion-rush-2023-48230-4724

I use the Wingman Chest harness vest paired with the Wingman Harness Loop and The Handle:

www.wingman-products.com/product/wing-foil-harness-line-mono/

www.wingman-products.com/product/the-handle-universal-extra-wing-handle/

This works great with the XPS. My loop recently ripped off (Poor v1 design - V2 is much better) and I went back to a elasticized harness line temporarily. While that worked alright, the experience with loop is much better. The reason it is worth the cost is two fold imho:

1) The Loop can be slid up and down the Handle to achieve perfect balance point.

2) The Loop can be cut to perfect length. When set up properly, it creates a very solid, yet dampened connection. You can release grip pressure fully and the loop deforms to be straight. As you add a bit of grip pressure, the loop begins to go back to round, which keeps the line in the harness (to a point) and provides a varying level of grip assistance. Compared to a standard harness line, those feel much more finicky and twitchy.

I think the loop can be ordered long enough to work with a lower harness hook position.

Yikes...those harnesses all look way overbuilt, bulky (FOR ME), and likely to hold water, like the Dakine Solo I had and ditched. I'd like something much more minimalist, and am facing just using a leash waist belt, since I'm using that already...

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SpokeyDoke said..
Yikes...those harnesses all look way overbuilt, bulky (FOR ME), and likely to hold water, like the Dakine Solo I had and ditched. I'd like something much more minimalist, and am facing just using a leash waist belt, since I'm using that already...

The loop does have some weight compared to a simple harness loop, but the middle handle is very light and doesn't take on any real water. I wouldn't recommend this setup unless you spend a lot of time cranking upwind under powered conditions. If you are out hunting puffs, or just cycling a 100 yard point break, forget about it. I dabble in racing and often ride upwind to DW.

This has been my favourite to date. I made it up from some old windsurf harnesses that attached over the boom. I like a harness that stays in place so you know where it is when you hook in (or don't want to hook in ??). A throw back to windsurfing I guess. Problem is that this has worked great on the Duotone Units handles, but slides around a lot on the Cabrinha Mantis web covered handles. Feel it will be the same when my XPS's arrive.