Anyone used the DWP foils for winging? How do they compare to the HAv2's? I'm guessing they have more speed and glide, less turny, and you need to be more precise to get them up. curious to hear from those that have tried them.

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kiwiupover said..
Anyone used the DWP foils for winging? How do they compare to the HAv2's? I'm guessing they have more speed and glide, less turny, and you need to be more precise to get them up. curious to hear from those that have tried them.

if you go to the armstrong facebook page and search for this there have been reports back on crew using them with the pros and cons. I've only managed to prone the 930 for giggles and the stall speed is outrageously good - and as you said speed and glide. I was surprised how easily and steadily it got on foil as well - was expecting the sudden spike lift like the old HA. This was really welcomed as i'm sick as a dog from too much DW paddle in one week. Was great to just sit back and pump and link with total ease.

But at that size she's suffers from the span - turning and the instability that comes with it is obvious. Smaller one like a 755 would be worth a crack for DW winging for sure. Or flat water bump riding - but in waves .. yeh nah.

anyhow there are good insights on this for winging from more informed sources than on here. Check them out.

I bought a second hand DW695 for this reason. I am doing DW runs with wing and currently own the HA880 and HA680. If find that those, as primary being surf foils, "slow down" and want to let you sit in the steep part of the wave, which allows you to get closer to the pocket. Which is good for riding waves with a flagged wing. But I found that in the open bumps this causes problems as the steep parts are not always there. The 880 feels 'glidy' enough, but you feel it slowing down to it's sweetspot, which causes the wave to roll by. The 680 keeps a higher speed, but i miss the glide on this wing and therefore actually run in the same problems as with the 880 but with a different cause. All runs done with the 140 dart, red shim. I think the direction of the current has a lot to do with this as well. In places as the Gorge, the extra power of the current keeps you in place (opposite direction of the wind). But at locations where the current is moving with the wind, these win from you with the v2 HA's. Therefore the choice of the 685, it has a little bigger span then the 880 (960mm vs 923mm I believe) but the same area as the 680 which was fine. I hope the shape is less "capped" than the v2 HA's so it doesn't want to slow you down as much.

Still on vacation for some weeks, but will let you know how my experiences are with the wing-DW runs (will be around end-nov, begin-dec).

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Robert211 said..
I bought a second hand DW695 for this reason. I am doing DW runs with wing and currently own the HA880 and HA680. If find that those, as primary being surf foils, "slow down" and want to let you sit in the steep part of the wave, which allows you to get closer to the pocket. Which is good for riding waves with a flagged wing. But I found that in the open bumps this causes problems as the steep parts are not always there. The 880 feels 'glidy' enough, but you feel it slowing down to it's sweetspot, which causes the wave to roll by. The 680 keeps a higher speed, but i miss the glide on this wing and therefore actually run in the same problems as with the 880 but with a different cause. All runs done with the 140 dart, red shim. I think the direction of the current has a lot to do with this as well. In places as the Gorge, the extra power of the current keeps you in place (opposite direction of the wind). But at locations where the current is moving with the wind, these win from you with the v2 HA's. Therefore the choice of the 685, it has a little bigger span then the 880 (960mm vs 923mm I believe) but the same area as the 680 which was fine. I hope the shape is less "capped" than the v2 HA's so it doesn't want to slow you down as much.

Still on vacation for some weeks, but will let you know how my experiences are with the wing-DW runs (will be around end-nov, begin-dec).

Cool - thanks. Let me know how it goes. I really enjoy the ha880 and 1180 but want more speed and glide :-) and I think I might be ok turning the DWP as a 'big dash' at 95kgs :-)

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Robert211 said..
I bought a second hand DW695 for this reason. I am doing DW runs with wing and currently own the HA880 and HA680. If find that those, as primary being surf foils, "slow down" and want to let you sit in the steep part of the wave, which allows you to get closer to the pocket. Which is good for riding waves with a flagged wing. But I found that in the open bumps this causes problems as the steep parts are not always there. The 880 feels 'glidy' enough, but you feel it slowing down to it's sweetspot, which causes the wave to roll by. The 680 keeps a higher speed, but i miss the glide on this wing and therefore actually run in the same problems as with the 880 but with a different cause. All runs done with the 140 dart, red shim. I think the direction of the current has a lot to do with this as well. In places as the Gorge, the extra power of the current keeps you in place (opposite direction of the wind). But at locations where the current is moving with the wind, these win from you with the v2 HA's. Therefore the choice of the 685, it has a little bigger span then the 880 (960mm vs 923mm I believe) but the same area as the 680 which was fine. I hope the shape is less "capped" than the v2 HA's so it doesn't want to slow you down as much.

Still on vacation for some weeks, but will let you know how my experiences are with the wing-DW runs (will be around end-nov, begin-dec).

Also keen to hear how you went.

My report on DWP785 vs HA780v2 here

www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Wing-Foiling/Wind-Wings/What-is-Armstrong-up-to-?page=1

So this made me get one too. Found a used DWP755.

I have ridden it twice. One good day and then the second time I put it on the wind kinda died.

This is the first day report. Wind was 15 -18 mph and steady in an enclosed bay with my new ozone flow 5.0. Tried all my new toys this day. Normally ride the 880 with the 220 and a blue shim. Been having a lot of fun with that 220 tail winging. Used the 880 first to get the feel of the flow and was having a blast. Then tried the 680 for the first time and had a blast on that too. Threw on the 755. Man does that thing glide. Jibes were absolutely effortless. Mowed the lawn for a few minutes getting the feel for it. The lagoon had small 1.5 foot wind waves on the sets. I can't pump very good unless I am on a wave. And I have never done any DW stuff. But the way this thing glides I just took off catching these little waves. OMFG that was fun. I did not totally flag out the wing off the front luff handle. I just kept my front hand on the front of the main handle. If I needed a little push, I put my back hand right up next to my front hand on the front handle and applied a little force and it was just enough power to get me to the next bump. I was cutting across more than going DW.
The second time I tried this I had started to repeat the same and the wind shut down, but caught a few little rides the same way. Its making my mind wonder about the other sizes. Maybe even for some of the non breaking faster swells with a foil drive out in the surf.

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ninjatuna said..
So this made me get one too. Found a used DWP755.

I have ridden it twice. One good day and then the second time I put it on the wind kinda died.

This is the first day report. Wind was 15 -18 mph and steady in an enclosed bay with my new ozone flow 5.0. Tried all my new toys this day. Normally ride the 880 with the 220 and a blue shim. Been having a lot of fun with that 220 tail winging. Used the 880 first to get the feel of the flow and was having a blast. Then tried the 680 for the first time and had a blast on that too. Threw on the 755. Man does that thing glide. Jibes were absolutely effortless. Mowed the lawn for a few minutes getting the feel for it. The lagoon had small 1.5 foot wind waves on the sets. I can't pump very good unless I am on a wave. And I have never done any DW stuff. But the way this thing glides I just took off catching these little waves. OMFG that was fun. I did not totally flag out the wing off the front luff handle. I just kept my front hand on the front of the main handle. If I needed a little push, I put my back hand right up next to my front hand on the front handle and applied a little force and it was just enough power to get me to the next bump. I was cutting across more than going DW.
The second time I tried this I had started to repeat the same and the wind shut down, but caught a few little rides the same way. It's making my mind wonder about the other sizes. Maybe even for some of the non breaking faster swells with a foil drive out in the surf.

Awesome feedback. I felt v much the same. I'd add also other couple of points
1. DWP handles breaching better than HA v2
2. DWP has about 2-3kt higher top speed
and now some negatives
3. it does not have the low end of HAv2. I ride the DWP755 at 15-16ish. The 780 HAv2 probably in the 14 handles. Not that I care much as the DWP is my high wind front (90kg rider typically riding in choppy water with lots of current).
4. to get on foil the DWP, at the very beginning, requires to be kept flat, no pumping on the board but just with the handwing, until you reach a speed at which pumping the foil with the board get you going. I tried getting on foil with the DWP in many different ways and I found that combo to work best. First, from standstill, only handwing pumping and then board. With the HAv2 I dint have to pay much attention. It'd be nice to see people using it in SUP foil and highlight how the combine paddle strokes and board pumps. I expect them to start pumping the board only when a critical min speed is reached.
5. to fully leverages and enjoy the superb quality of this foil, I think a midlength or at least a modern shape board is advised. I dont see this foil with short and wide boards, but rather long(ish) and narrow board. Particularly because of the starting technique I mentioned above.

Also the DWP, in the hall dozen times I used it, has this distinctive features which are not +ve or -ve per se but it is just something to be aware of: compared to HA v2 the DWP is more balanced in terms of fore-aft pressure. At the same foil to board placement (I ride Wing FG and midlength at 6-7 mast position) the DWP has less front foot pressure compared the HAv2. People who dislike the HAv2 typical front foot pressure bias will find the DWP more balanced without the need to use any shim.

Select to expand quote

Robert211 said..
I bought a second hand DW695 for this reason. I am doing DW runs with wing and currently own the HA880 and HA680. If find that those, as primary being surf foils, "slow down" and want to let you sit in the steep part of the wave, which allows you to get closer to the pocket. Which is good for riding waves with a flagged wing. But I found that in the open bumps this causes problems as the steep parts are not always there. The 880 feels 'glidy' enough, but you feel it slowing down to it's sweetspot, which causes the wave to roll by. The 680 keeps a higher speed, but i miss the glide on this wing and therefore actually run in the same problems as with the 880 but with a different cause. All runs done with the 140 dart, red shim. I think the direction of the current has a lot to do with this as well. In places as the Gorge, the extra power of the current keeps you in place (opposite direction of the wind). But at locations where the current is moving with the wind, these win from you with the v2 HA's. Therefore the choice of the 685, it has a little bigger span then the 880 (960mm vs 923mm I believe) but the same area as the 680 which was fine. I hope the shape is less "capped" than the v2 HA's so it doesn't want to slow you down as much.

Still on vacation for some weeks, but will let you know how my experiences are with the wing-DW runs (will be around end-nov, begin-dec).

Checking in :-)

Checking in! Unfortunately the 685 has not arrived yet.. But seems like tomorrow is going to be the day. The positive side is that I did a lot of downwinders on the 880 & 680. If I have to choose one, the 880 works best in most conditions for me (80 kg). With the 680 I really miss the glide because of the shorter span. But, when there was sufficient swell and steep rollers, the 680 could hang on and the reduced area made it sort of fast enough. So really really looking forward to the 685, I think (and hope) it is going to be a rad mix of those both factors, glide (big span) and speed (smal surface area). Will update when tested!

Hi everyone! Finally had a chance to share my initial thoughts on the DWP 685. I was hoping for a bigger swell to really put it to the test, but that hasn't arrived yet. So here's what I've gathered so far and I'll update after riding in bigger rolling swell.

A bit about my setup:
- Rider weight: 80kg
- Board: AK Phazer 5'0 46L (no straps)
- Foil setup: 82.5cm Cedrus Evo Surf, 60 Fuze, 140/195 tail, red shim
- Wings: 2024 4.5 Unit D (mostly), and once with the 2023 5.5 Unit D

The run I've been doing is about 18km shortest path and 21-ish km when riding waves. Did around 6-7 runs on the 685. For reference, I've done this route with the 880 and 680 before, also around 7 times in total. The 880 was slowing down too much for these kinds of waves, while the 680 needed bigger swell to connect properly. The 880 typically took around 75 minutes, and the 680 took about 65 minutes, or 55 minutes when pushing. For reference: I usually do the run in one go, if I fall, it is typically just one or two times at most. Wind range: 4.5m: 17-24 knots, 5.5m: 15-19 knots.

The Good Stuff
The DWP 685 is incredibly fast and has amazing glide, especially considering the small swell (max hip-high on the best parts). The glide on this foil was comparable to the 680 on a chest-high day, so while I haven't experienced the whole run without using the hand wing yet, I have ridden the 685 for minutes without it. I'm confident it'll deliver when the conditions improve.

The speed is impressive in both waves and with the wing. Even in these mellow conditions, I could easily get to the front of the wave when it was 'splitting up', just by pumping without wing. On the other side, when I tried it for a speed run (only wind power), I did 18km in 29:49 minutes, averaging over 36 km/h. That's about the top speed I get with the 680, and now it's my average with the 685. I found that insane!

Foil Characteristics
The DWP 685 is intuitive and user-friendly right off the bat, for the experienced foiler. On my first session with it, I was trying out this downwind run. I popped up and completed the run in one go. The HA foils tend to feel more "pushy" on takeoff, but the 685 has a more forward projection. It prefers forward pumps rather than upwards pumps to get onto foil, if that makes sense. Once on foil, it's easy to pump out of small holes, but you need to build up some momentum. Jumping aggressively can cause the foil to push through the tail, so a more controlled approach works best.

Turning
I had to adjust my turning technique a bit. Coming from a more "roll-heavy" style, I had to shift to a more balanced 60/40 roll/yaw turn. This made the turns feel smoother and kept the foil in its happy place.

Replacement
If I were to replace a foil closest to the 685 in terms of usability, it would be the 880. The 685 has better glide and more speed and I don't really need the "holding back" characteristics of the 880 in waves anymore. The 685 lets me weave a bit more on the top of the wave and then enjoy the run down with a nice bottom turn back up. While the turning on the 880 is more intuitive, I don't mind the slight adjustment needed with the 685, especially given that the '880 conditions' are smaller waves anyways.

Final Verdict
The DWP 685 feels like a more advanced version of the HAv2. It offers more performance, more glide, more speed and is more sensitive to rider input. To put it in simple terms: It is like in the old days, the HAv2 is like an iPhone, and the DWP is like a jailbroken iPhone. You need to know what you are doing, but when you do, it opens up a whole new level of possibilities!

I've had so many thoughts and feelings about this foil, but I hope this covers some of the key aspects. If you have any questions or if I missed something, feel free to ask!

Enjoy!

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SlowlyButSurely said..

ninjatuna said..
So this made me get one too. Found a used DWP755.

I have ridden it twice. One good day and then the second time I put it on the wind kinda died.

This is the first day report. Wind was 15 -18 mph and steady in an enclosed bay with my new ozone flow 5.0. Tried all my new toys this day. Normally ride the 880 with the 220 and a blue shim. Been having a lot of fun with that 220 tail winging. Used the 880 first to get the feel of the flow and was having a blast. Then tried the 680 for the first time and had a blast on that too. Threw on the 755. Man does that thing glide. Jibes were absolutely effortless. Mowed the lawn for a few minutes getting the feel for it. The lagoon had small 1.5 foot wind waves on the sets. I can't pump very good unless I am on a wave. And I have never done any DW stuff. But the way this thing glides I just took off catching these little waves. OMFG that was fun. I did not totally flag out the wing off the front luff handle. I just kept my front hand on the front of the main handle. If I needed a little push, I put my back hand right up next to my front hand on the front handle and applied a little force and it was just enough power to get me to the next bump. I was cutting across more than going DW.
The second time I tried this I had started to repeat the same and the wind shut down, but caught a few little rides the same way. It's making my mind wonder about the other sizes. Maybe even for some of the non breaking faster swells with a foil drive out in the surf.

Awesome feedback. I felt v much the same. I'd add also other couple of points
1. DWP handles breaching better than HA v2
2. DWP has about 2-3kt higher top speed
and now some negatives
3. it does not have the low end of HAv2. I ride the DWP755 at 15-16ish. The 780 HAv2 probably in the 14 handles. Not that I care much as the DWP is my high wind front (90kg rider typically riding in choppy water with lots of current).
4. to get on foil the DWP, at the very beginning, requires to be kept flat, no pumping on the board but just with the handwing, until you reach a speed at which pumping the foil with the board get you going. I tried getting on foil with the DWP in many different ways and I found that combo to work best. First, from standstill, only handwing pumping and then board. With the HAv2 I dint have to pay much attention. It'd be nice to see people using it in SUP foil and highlight how the combine paddle strokes and board pumps. I expect them to start pumping the board only when a critical min speed is reached.
5. to fully leverages and enjoy the superb quality of this foil, I think a midlength or at least a modern shape board is advised. I dont see this foil with short and wide boards, but rather long(ish) and narrow board. Particularly because of the starting technique I mentioned above.

Also the DWP, in the hall dozen times I used it, has this distinctive features which are not +ve or -ve per se but it is just something to be aware of: compared to HA v2 the DWP is more balanced in terms of fore-aft pressure. At the same foil to board placement (I ride Wing FG and midlength at 6-7 mast position) the DWP has less front foot pressure compared the HAv2. People who dislike the HAv2 typical front foot pressure bias will find the DWP more balanced without the need to use any shim.

Echoing the comments above, the front board/foil combo is a current favourite. 10-20 knots tropical, bay and open water.
Stokr Breeze 85L (6ft x 19.5") with DWP755 / 180 red+blue / 60 / 795

One of the most balanced setups I've ever ridden, smooth as! 77Kg rider

I rode the DWP930 as well but it felt too nose down