Hi everyone.

Ive learned to wing on my Naish Hover 142 wing foil board and the SS infinity 99 foil. Its been amazing and I've considered myself past the beginners stage as I can now go upwind, use a 6m wing and a 4m wing and handle chop as well as the occasional gybe.
The Naish works really well but it lacks deck pads where I kneel (ouch) and is a bit too long when its windy. I have been able to foil comfortably in 13mph wind on that set up and learned to pump the foil well.

I took the plunge and bought a dedicated wing foil board that is 5 foot 10 long but has 135 litres of volume.
I did 3 sessions out on it with minimal wind to get used to the shape and it supports me ok (although it feels very tippy when kneeling) and I can slog about ok in as little as 10 mph. Ive even gybed it when slogging.
Yesterday I had two sessions with more wind. The first on very flat water 16-22mph. I slogged about and suddenly I got up on one run with a bit of pumping and went along for 300m. The windfoilers near me didn't get going and I left them behind. That was it for the rest of that session. Wind came up and i couldn't get going at all. I tried every conceivable foot position. Downwind pumping, overhead pumping etc. No joy. Board mostly kept lifting to a massive nose high position and then stalled. If I tried to keep my weight more forward to try and keep the board flat and be ready to weight the front foot on lifting it just wouldn't go.
Later in the day the wind was even stronger (18-25mph) so I went back to the beach and went out with a 6.0 wing. Much easier to get on to the board with loads of power in the wing and but 45 minutes of manic pumping in very powered conditions produced ZERO flights.

It feels like the board just wants to push through the water and when it reaches the speed the foil works at it just jumps up nose high. Too quick to catch. Even when powered and having the wing high it still ploughs through.

Im 104 kgs and the 135 feels ok under my feet and is only 7 litres less than my Naish 142.
The wing is the same, the foil is the same but I cannot make it work.

Any suggestions please

IMO.. The trick is pumping board and the foil not the just the wing.. and not relying on board speed to get on the foil.. Your 142 has a flatter rocker and will pick up speed to almost planing speed and then the foil starts to lift.. Smaller dedicated foil boards don't get the same board speed and need to be pumped up onto the foil.. Moving to foil more forward in the tracks might also help.. Also try heading more off the wind as you try pumping the board and foil.. Using a board that is a little too small for your body weight do tend to push water as you try to get on the foil.

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DavidJohn said..
IMO.. The trick is pumping board and the foil not the just the wing.. and not relying on board speed to get on the foil.. Your 142 has a flatter rocker and will pick up speed to almost planing speed and then the foil starts to lift.. Smaller dedicated foil boards don't get the same board speed and need to be pumped up onto the foil.. Moving to foil more forward in the tracks might also help.. Also try heading more off the wind as you try pumping the board and foil.. Using a board that is a little too small for your body weight do tend to push water as you try to get on the foil.

I think i was pointing way downwind and pumping at times.
I will wait for the next session and try again. Was very frustrating and you tend to lose focus.

Thanks for coming back to me

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Heliboy999 said..
Hi everyone.

Ive learned to wing on my Naish Hover 142 wing foil board and the SS infinity 99 foil. Its been amazing and I've considered myself past the beginners stage as I can now go upwind, use a 6m wing and a 4m wing and handle chop as well as the occasional gybe.
The Naish works really well but it lacks deck pads where I kneel (ouch) and is a bit too long when its windy. I have been able to foil comfortably in 13mph wind on that set up and learned to pump the foil well.

I took the plunge and bought a dedicated wing foil board that is 5 foot 10 long but has 135 litres of volume.
I did 3 sessions out on it with minimal wind to get used to the shape and it supports me ok (although it feels very tippy when kneeling) and I can slog about ok in as little as 10 mph. Ive even gybed it when slogging.
Yesterday I had two sessions with more wind. The first on very flat water 16-22mph. I slogged about and suddenly I got up on one run with a bit of pumping and went along for 300m. The windfoilers near me didn't get going and I left them behind. That was it for the rest of that session. Wind came up and i couldn't get going at all. I tried every conceivable foot position. Downwind pumping, overhead pumping etc. No joy. Board mostly kept lifting to a massive nose high position and then stalled. If I tried to keep my weight more forward to try and keep the board flat and be ready to weight the front foot on lifting it just wouldn't go.
Later in the day the wind was even stronger (18-25mph) so I went back to the beach and went out with a 6.0 wing. Much easier to get on to the board with loads of power in the wing and but 45 minutes of manic pumping in very powered conditions produced ZERO flights.

It feels like the board just wants to push through the water and when it reaches the speed the foil works at it just jumps up nose high. Too quick to catch. Even when powered and having the wing high it still ploughs through.

Im 104 kgs and the 135 feels ok under my feet and is only 7 litres less than my Naish 142.
The wing is the same, the foil is the same but I cannot make it work.

Any suggestions please

You're new board might only be 7 liters less than the old one,but I bet it has a lot less surface area on the bottom which pushes more water before getting going.Think of a wide single ski vs a narrow ski being pulled up behind a boat.Doesn't matter how thick (volume) the skis are the wider one will always get up easier.
The volume sure helps you float better but doesn't help much get up on the plane or foil easier.
Anyhow basically you are going to have to pump the board up on the foil as much or more than you pump the wing to get going.

If you were getting up on foil initially with a nose high scenario, I would try moving the foil back a hair in the tracks. On my smaller board (+10L) when schlogging and pumping on foil, my rear foot is a full 6"-12" forward of my normal flying stance. That foot placement effectively centers my weight at a better balance point on the board and launch angle for the foil. If I don't move the foot, my nose is slightly out of the water and it's difficult to balance.

A front foot strap really helps on a smaller/shorter board as well. It takes that guess work out of the equation so you can focus on back foot placement for launch, then step back slightly when up on foil. It also helps with pumping the board, as you don't need to worry about your foot slipping around or rising off the deck.

Also play around with starting your wing pumping motion/board pumping motion with your knees bent a good bit. That can help you push the board down into the water slightly as you sheet in on the pump. It can allow a slight dolphin rhythm to develop where the board can pick up more speed and foil engage quicker.

If you have any shimming capabilities, you could also try and decrease the offsetting lift from the tail.

Hope this helps! Don't give up on the smaller board, it's worth the shorter length!

what board is it....5'10 for a 135 liters?

Difficulty with new board most likely related to foil positioning vs foot placement. I would put foil onto old board and take some careful measurements (front foot relative to front wing, for example) and then make sure you replicate the setup on the new board. Also possible that tracks on new board are positioned such that angle of attack may be different from what you are used to. If you can get a session behind a boat, it may help dial in new setup.

Been there and done that -- I would try moving the foil back a little or move your back foot forward a little.

I believe you're using the Echo wing, which likes to start off the wind, way off the wind. Pump both the wing and the board and get more speed to help with lift. What you're doing now is simply getting lift out of the foil with very little forward momentum and the foil lifts and stalls -- immediately drops back down -- almost in one motion.

With a 6m in 18 to 25 mph winds, you would hardly need to pump the wing or the board to get going. As Emmafoils pointed out, I would be paying some close attention to foil angle on the board and positioning.

I get my best and earliest lift on the SUP foil board by having the foil positioned to the front of the board. Least speed required and least powered required for me. My other mates are running about half way back.

I have a friend who was having similar issues to what you are describing on a custom foil board build. Struggled to get up. I swapped him on to my board with his foil and he got going without any issue. He retired his board and got something similar to mine.

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northy1 said..
what board is it....5'10 for a 135 liters?

Gong Flint

Thanks everyone for your input. i will measure the distance on my old board and see if I can replicate.
I do have the foil right at the back at the moment to give stability and trying to stop the nose rising too quick. I will have a look at bearing off the wind a lot more. My one run that I got going may well have been very off the wind but it happened so fast I can't really remomebre

Thanks once again

I would try the mast position in the middle position of the tracks , as a golden mean sort of approach. I have had that unstable "wheelie" effect on kitefoils and it seems that it is due to the foil not being able to achieve stable laminar flow , so it suddenly stalls. You may interpret the sudden rise as too much lift and compensate by pushing the mast back , but sometimes the solution is actually to push the mast forward to help the foil achieve stable laminar flow earlier. I am 80kg and run a pretty light 5'5 board , I always run my mast near the front of the tracks, never behind halfway. The other thing is that I know my optimum / natural stance width ( distance between front and back foot) is around 600mm ( I am 6'2). When starting / pumping foil my front foot moves forward around 10-15cm to keep the board relatively flat as it lifts , then once airborne I bring it back a bit as I settle into my comfortable flying position. This especially works on shorter boards.
Hope this helps.

Take a look and listen to Alan Cadiz explain about how to get the board to lift (wing board) at around the 7 minute mark of the video below:

Fair amount of rocker in your board. You will need to work on your technique to pump the board up onto the foil. Sounds like you are relying on the power in the wing to drag you up. You will push water and then it will suddenly release when you reach the speed needed to overcome the drag of the rocker. With that sudden release you over foil.

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emmafoils said..
Difficulty with new board most likely related to foil positioning vs foot placement. I would put foil onto old board and take some careful measurements (front foot relative to front wing, for example) and then make sure you replicate the setup on the new board. Also possible that tracks on new board are positioned such that angle of attack may be different from what you are used to. If you can get a session behind a boat, it may help dial in new setup.

This is golden advice.
I just went from a 120l 6.6 board to a Naish Hover Ultra 85l (5.something).
I set the foil mid track(like on the old board) and it was almost unrideable, full weight on front foot to keep foil in the water...moved the foil fully back and problem solved.

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mcrt said..

emmafoils said..
Difficulty with new board most likely related to foil positioning vs foot placement. I would put foil onto old board and take some careful measurements (front foot relative to front wing, for example) and then make sure you replicate the setup on the new board. Also possible that tracks on new board are positioned such that angle of attack may be different from what you are used to. If you can get a session behind a boat, it may help dial in new setup.

This is golden advice.
I just went from a 120l 6.6 board to a Naish Hover Ultra 85l (5.something).
I set the foil mid track(like on the old board) and it was almost unrideable, full weight on front foot to keep foil in the water...moved the foil fully back and problem solved.

Mcrt.. I'm trying to decide what board to go to from my 6'6 120L. I'm 75kgs and an advanced beginner. I want to switch to a smaller board as it feels pretty big. Other than positioning of thd foil how did you find the change to a smaller board?

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mcrt said..

emmafoils said..
Difficulty with new board most likely related to foil positioning vs foot placement. I would put foil onto old board and take some careful measurements (front foot relative to front wing, for example) and then make sure you replicate the setup on the new board. Also possible that tracks on new board are positioned such that angle of attack may be different from what you are used to. If you can get a session behind a boat, it may help dial in new setup.

This is golden advice.
I just went from a 120l 6.6 board to a Naish Hover Ultra 85l (5.something).
I set the foil mid track(like on the old board) and it was almost unrideable, full weight on front foot to keep foil in the water...moved the foil fully back and problem solved.

On Naish boards S25s if one is about 75 to 85kg of lettuce or small pies yes mid to 3/4 of the way back in the track.
If about 100kg meat pies at the front of the track.
This is just a guide as foil wing size etc will also influence the sweet spot.
For me at 76kg, Moses 1100 foil wing On the 110 Naish S25 board I have the mast 75% back.
This is my best position for pumping up but once up I need to step back a bit

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IanInca said..

mcrt said..

emmafoils said..
Difficulty with new board most likely related to foil positioning vs foot placement. I would put foil onto old board and take some careful measurements (front foot relative to front wing, for example) and then make sure you replicate the setup on the new board. Also possible that tracks on new board are positioned such that angle of attack may be different from what you are used to. If you can get a session behind a boat, it may help dial in new setup.

This is golden advice.
I just went from a 120l 6.6 board to a Naish Hover Ultra 85l (5.something).
I set the foil mid track(like on the old board) and it was almost unrideable, full weight on front foot to keep foil in the water...moved the foil fully back and problem solved.

Mcrt.. I'm trying to decide what board to go to from my 6'6 120L. I'm 75kgs and an advanced beginner. I want to switch to a smaller board as it feels pretty big. Other than positioning of thd foil how did you find the change to a smaller board?

I am a 75kg beginner,without any advanced bits :)
The board is great, first of all the easiness and safety of getting in and out of the water with the bottom handle (foil pointing away ) and the lightweight compact form is wonderful.I used to dread this with the big board.

The only challenge for me is getting to the sailing on knees position.The board will flip in any direction if not careful.My method (thanks DW and others for their vids on this,and feel free to correct me):

1-Pull sail close to downwind board edge with forward hand holding leash.
2-Pull yourself on top and balance by leaning on leading edge as needed.I put my knees right behind front straps,facing fwd.
3-The tricky bit...balance,look at horizon (if i look down i go down).
Quickly pull depower handle up and across with fwd hand and grab a handle with back hand,sheet in your umbrella and get the board moving...done.I am getting about 2 out of three right on the first try after 2 sessions...so no biggie.

The standing up and sailing is easy, to me it feels like it points upwind better than my Zuma 6.6 120l in slogging mode.

Foiling is just all mo better,pumping on to the foil is easier ,sailing is easier and pumping in lulls too.
Transitions are something i need to work on...a lot :) but it is not because of the board .
The few foil gybes i have finished felt no harder than the bigger board, and crashing with front foot in the strap is nowhere near as scary.The smaller inertia and dimensions make it easier to get that foot free.
Really liking the Dakine Slim straps BTW ,light ,comfy and super easy to get in and escape from.

I would buy the 85l again,very happy.

Ps: for a wingydingy board it is almost pretty...i mean, in comparison to the baby coffin style everybody seems to design :)

Foil placement in the track and back foot placement are crucial to getting on foil -- depends to some extent on wind speed. You have to get enough forward momentum to get past the foil's stall speed -- if not, then you lift and then immediately slap back down.

I was out yesterday in 20 to 25 m.p.h. with my modified Wasp (carbon boom) and 6' 120 litre Ride Engine Moon Buddy wing board. I was a bit frustrated at first trying to get on foil so I moved the foil back to about an inch from the back of the track and took the back foot strap off. That was my ticket to ride. I had a lot of fun up on foil -- definitely addicting!

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dejavu said..
Foil placement in the track and back foot placement are crucial to getting on foil -- depends to some extent on wind speed. You have to get enough forward momentum to get past the foil's stall speed -- if not, then you lift and then immediately slap back down.

I was out yesterday in 20 to 25 m.p.h. with my modified Wasp (carbon boom) and 6' 120 litre Ride Engine Moon Buddy wing board. I was a bit frustrated at first trying to get on foil so I moved the foil back to about an inch from the back of the track and took the back foot strap off. That was my ticket to ride. I had a lot of fun up on foil -- definitely addicting!

Still waiting for the 6' Moon Buddy, I have foiled the 7' in 15 knots and its pretty smooth!

Agree with the forward momentum and foil speed etc...and sounds like you have the MB dialed in now, good info

Thanks for the input.

Update.

I already had the mast at the rear of the track and my front foot was almost on the front strap position. I moved my back foot forward which felt like it was going to be way too far forward and keep the board from lifting but it smoothed the lift and I got the rides and then fine tuned the foot position. Front straps went on the next day and I've got dialled in.
I moved the mast back even more by using the inner pedestal plate holes to get and extra half inch which didn't really change much.
Ive now decided i want to get the back strap on but the position of my back foot is an inch forward of the further forward screw hole so Ive now set the infinity 99 up in the A position. I will probably have the mast towards the front of the track but it will bring the foil back 3 inches and then I can tune it backwards as needed.. Front straps are already 2 inches further back in their fittings.
Im hoping the shift to the rear doesn't mean i drag the tail too much and stop acceleration but these things need to be tried.

3 days ion wind just gone which helped dial in and experiment.

Video of the sessions

Gong Flint 5'10"
Duotone Echo 4m and 7m
Slingshot Infinity 99

I had a go of a RideEngine/Slingshot combo for a friend who was stuggling (learning) to get going. And It took me a good five minutes to get it up on the foil in 20+ knots. Once up, it was super steady, but quite different getting started to the AXIS I normally ride.

I popped on my friend onto my AXIS 1020 and he immediately popped up on the foil.

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Heliboy999 said..

What is the bottom end on the 7 metre Echo like? Is a wing that big any fun?

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dejavu said..

Heliboy999 said..

What is the bottom end on the 7 metre Echo like? Is a wing that big any fun?

I got out today on my Naish Hover Windfall board with the 7.0 and was up and running in 12mph. 13-14Mph felt really powered and I was storming upwind. Think I was able to pump through some 10mph lulls but it just gives me a pit more grunt for my weight. Im going to have a 7.0 a 5.0 and 4.0 eventually. Im 105kg