Hi
Getting some strong gusty winds in Scotland at the min. Today 10-30knts. just got the Naish HA1400 foil, little experience on it so far. was out today on Naish HA1400/3.5 score, being overpowered a lot of the time, felt like I was fighting it. on the way out cross on chop, really struggling to get on foil, kept stalling, rearing up nose, difficult to get speed up. on the way back was a lot better going with the swell, no pumping just sheet in and go. feet were in the position I would normally ride and once up on foil all ok, a few minor tweaks.
Any advice appreciated on how to make the most of tough conditions. Not my best day on the wing lol.
thanks in advance.

Hi there, that's a big foil for those conditions so if you don't have anything smaller there are a couple of options.
Moving the mast as far back as you can will give you more leverage to hold it down.
You can also try shimming the rear to flatten it out. Just a washer or two under one of the screws will reduce the lift. If you go too far with the shimming it'll become unstable but, what the hell, you're unstable now (ho ho!). As to which screw to shim, that depends on the mounting point and I'm unfamiliar with Naish foils. Just note that at the moment the leading edge of the stabiliser will be lower than the rear edge giving maximum lift. You just want to reduce that angle.

Smaller stab helps too.

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tangogeoff said..
Hi there, that's a big foil for those conditions so if you don't have anything smaller there are a couple of options.
Moving the mast as far back as you can will give you more leverage to hold it down.
You can also try shimming the rear to flatten it out. Just a washer or two under one of the screws will reduce the lift. If you go too far with the shimming it'll become unstable but, what the hell, you're unstable now (ho ho!). As to which screw to shim, that depends on the mounting point and I'm unfamiliar with Naish foils. Just note that at the moment the leading edge of the stabiliser will be lower than the rear edge giving maximum lift. You just want to reduce that angle.

There is me thinking I don't need to buy more kit lol. Once I'm up on foil all seems good, feet in normal positions, Controll height ok. will a shim change the way it rides once foiling, will it be hard to maintain height. thanks for advice guys.

Overpowered I like to ride fast on a beam reach across the waves or close hauled with a harness so you can do a controlled depower a bit by pinching. In between those tacks while overpowered the wing can go crazy and you're fighting breaching and nosediving which result in you going slower than in less windy conditions. That said it shouldn't happen on a HA1400 if you are familiar with it, that should be enough foil, so just ride it more to get a handle on it.

Geez.......a million times again...
Does your car have one gear?
Does you accelerator pedal have one setting?
Does your bicycle have one gear?
Is the windspeed always the same?

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rgmacca said..
Hi
Getting some strong gusty winds in Scotland at the min. Today 10-30knts. just got the Naish HA1400 foil, little experience on it so far. was out today on Naish HA1400/3.5 score, being overpowered a lot of the time, felt like I was fighting it. on the way out cross on chop, really struggling to get on foil, kept stalling, rearing up nose, difficult to get speed up. on the way back was a lot better going with the swell, no pumping just sheet in and go. feet were in the position I would normally ride and once up on foil all ok, a few minor tweaks.
Any advice appreciated on how to make the most of tough conditions. Not my best day on the wing lol.
thanks in advance.

I had a very similar problem with the Armstrong 1250 and the Kujira 1210.
Until i shimmed the mast plate.
Cannot be sure this is your case 100% but the symptoms ring very familiar.

Does your board have a bit of rocker at the foilbox?.

If the foil is at a very low angle of attack as you try to pump up your board will feel skatey,hard to control and prone to not rising or doing so very abruptly and stalling.Drove me nuts.

A bit of shim ,thick part at the back screws, at the mast plate could solve your problem.
Easy to try, you can make a test shim with ducktape and bits of old credit cards.A 3mm difference in height front/back should let you know it it gets better or worse.

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rgmacca said..
Hi
Getting some strong gusty winds in Scotland at the min. Today 10-30knts. just got the Naish HA1400 foil, little experience on it so far. was out today on Naish HA1400/3.5 score, being overpowered a lot of the time, felt like I was fighting it. on the way out cross on chop, really struggling to get on foil, kept stalling, rearing up nose, difficult to get speed up. on the way back was a lot better going with the swell, no pumping just sheet in and go. feet were in the position I would normally ride and once up on foil all ok, a few minor tweaks.
Any advice appreciated on how to make the most of tough conditions. Not my best day on the wing lol.
thanks in advance.

I used to feel over powered a lot when using my scores , they are so grunty and put a lot of pressure on my arms even when sheeted out. Good for the lower wind range of the sized used but I found to much for me in gusty winds or at there top end.

Hi rgmacca, Maybe before playing with shims, you could try moving the mast forward! in the tracks, just a centimetre or so. here's the theory. I was riding today at the other end of the country, Portland harbour Dorset in gusts up to 30 knots. using the Naish HA 1240 foil, occasionally way over powered with a 4m Wing (75kilos), in those conditions going back upwind I found it difficult to keep the board trimmed level, always fighting the foil, and trying not to breach, what I did notice was I had very little front foot pressure, and lots on the back leg.... moved the mast forward, and that helped greatly.... I could concentrate on more weigh on the front foot so the board came up on foil 'slower and steadier' and with more weigh over the front of the board it seemed easy to control the foil. and with more control, more speed. hope that helps.

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jonysan said..
Hi rgmacca, Maybe before playing with shims, you could try moving the mast forward! in the tracks, just a centimetre or so. here's the theory. I was riding today at the other end of the country, Portland harbour Dorset in gusts up to 30 knots. using the Naish HA 1240 foil, occasionally way over powered with a 4m Wing (75kilos), in those conditions going back upwind I found it difficult to keep the board trimmed level, always fighting the foil, and trying not to breach, what I did notice was I had very little front foot pressure, and lots on the back leg.... moved the mast forward, and that helped greatly.... I could concentrate on more weigh on the front foot so the board came up on foil 'slower and steadier' and with more weigh over the front of the board it seemed easy to control the foil. and with more control, more speed. hope that helps.

Hmmm... not sure what the theory part is there... not saying it didn't work, but ...Why? ... curious to know the theory.

I've had a similar experience when very overpowered, I think it's caused by riding too slow and pinching into the wind too much to compensate for being OP'd. This was happening to me last summer in the gorge when it was blowing 30+ so it's been a bit but I think the answer for me was to bear off a bit more and sort of feather the wing to come up to speed without leaning back and taking off too early.

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gorgesailor said..

jonysan said..
Hi rgmacca, Maybe before playing with shims, you could try moving the mast forward! in the tracks, just a centimetre or so. here's the theory. I was riding today at the other end of the country, Portland harbour Dorset in gusts up to 30 knots. using the Naish HA 1240 foil, occasionally way over powered with a 4m Wing (75kilos), in those conditions going back upwind I found it difficult to keep the board trimmed level, always fighting the foil, and trying not to breach, what I did notice was I had very little front foot pressure, and lots on the back leg.... moved the mast forward, and that helped greatly.... I could concentrate on more weigh on the front foot so the board came up on foil 'slower and steadier' and with more weigh over the front of the board it seemed easy to control the foil. and with more control, more speed. hope that helps.

Hmmm... not sure what the theory part is there... not saying it didn't work, but ...Why? ... curious to know the theory.

Not really a 'theory' at all, more counterintuitive ! I would have thought moving the mast forward would have made the situation worse, and I seemed to be having the same sort of control problems as 'rgmacca' described, In my case it coincided with having what felt like too light pressure needed on the front foot, ( 25/75 front rear ) . So I was always compensating for what the foil wanted to do, and this was more evident going upwind across chop, seemed to find it difficult to control the height of the board when overpowered.
Went in, adjusted the mast forward by about a centimetre/15mm, and this made me have to use more front foot pressure when getting up on foil, so I was controlling and smoothing out the lift and then when riding especially up wind and overpowered, that balanced, more 50/50 foot pressure, felt like I was controlling the front foil, rather than it controlling me.
Not really a theory, more something that worked for me today, and 'rgmacca' might try. as the conditions, and equipment, and problem seemed similar.

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LeeD said..
Geez.......a million times again...
Does your car have one gear?
Does you accelerator pedal have one setting?
Does your bicycle have one gear?
Is the windspeed always the same?

Geez. you're an arrogant d1ckhe@d

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mcrt said..

rgmacca said..
Hi
Getting some strong gusty winds in Scotland at the min. Today 10-30knts. just got the Naish HA1400 foil, little experience on it so far. was out today on Naish HA1400/3.5 score, being overpowered a lot of the time, felt like I was fighting it. on the way out cross on chop, really struggling to get on foil, kept stalling, rearing up nose, difficult to get speed up. on the way back was a lot better going with the swell, no pumping just sheet in and go. feet were in the position I would normally ride and once up on foil all ok, a few minor tweaks.
Any advice appreciated on how to make the most of tough conditions. Not my best day on the wing lol.
thanks in advance.

I had a very similar problem with the Armstrong 1250 and the Kujira 1210.
Until i shimmed the mast plate.
Cannot be sure this is your case 100% but the symptoms ring very familiar.

Does your board have a bit of rocker at the foilbox?.

If the foil is at a very low angle of attack as you try to pump up your board will feel skatey,hard to control and prone to not rising or doing so very abruptly and stalling.Drove me nuts.

A bit of shim ,thick part at the back screws, at the mast plate could solve your problem.
Easy to try, you can make a test shim with ducktape and bits of old credit cards.A 3mm difference in height front/back should let you know it it gets better or worse.

Thanks will try this. No rocker and both Naish. I must admit the connection between the foil and fuse is not 100% accurately moulded, there is a bit of a gap which could mean not seated as designed, will have to investigate further.

Pacey, do you believe in ONE foil, ONE wing, for all conditions?
Is it presumptuous of me to advise otherwise?
How many times has it been mentioned that more than ONE is needed?

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jonysan said..
Hi rgmacca, Maybe before playing with shims, you could try moving the mast forward! in the tracks, just a centimetre or so. here's the theory. I was riding today at the other end of the country, Portland harbour Dorset in gusts up to 30 knots. using the Naish HA 1240 foil, occasionally way over powered with a 4m Wing (75kilos), in those conditions going back upwind I found it difficult to keep the board trimmed level, always fighting the foil, and trying not to breach, what I did notice was I had very little front foot pressure, and lots on the back leg.... moved the mast forward, and that helped greatly.... I could concentrate on more weigh on the front foot so the board came up on foil 'slower and steadier' and with more weigh over the front of the board it seemed easy to control the foil. and with more control, more speed. hope that helps.

Thanks for input. yes it does seem the op of what you would think. But I can see what you mean about forcing more weight forward, I think I'm prob similar as ex kite/windsurfer and tend to ride off the back foot when getting overpowered, that fear of going over the front. We have certainly had plenty of strong gusty wind days lately.
Cheers.

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rgmacca said..

jonysan said..
Hi rgmacca, Maybe before playing with shims, you could try moving the mast forward! in the tracks, just a centimetre or so. here's the theory. I was riding today at the other end of the country, Portland harbour Dorset in gusts up to 30 knots. using the Naish HA 1240 foil, occasionally way over powered with a 4m Wing (75kilos), in those conditions going back upwind I found it difficult to keep the board trimmed level, always fighting the foil, and trying not to breach, what I did notice was I had very little front foot pressure, and lots on the back leg.... moved the mast forward, and that helped greatly.... I could concentrate on more weigh on the front foot so the board came up on foil 'slower and steadier' and with more weigh over the front of the board it seemed easy to control the foil. and with more control, more speed. hope that helps.

Thanks for input. yes it does seem the op of what you would think. But I can see what you mean about forcing more weight forward, I think I'm prob similar as ex kite/windsurfer and tend to ride off the back foot when getting overpowered, that fear of going over the front. We have certainly had plenty of strong gusty wind days lately.
Cheers.

I think you should try both... jonysan's experience is opposite to mine. I started in the middle & had all kinds of issues with wheelie starts & breaching & moved to the back of the track which calmed everything down. Also had luck shimming the stab to reduce lift. For reference I am on Takuma boards & foils which are notoriously front footed so, perhaps jonysan's experience with the Naish is more relevant?

My solution to all foil trim problems is to simply move my feet. Usually moving the back foot forward about 50mm calms down the foil during starting and gives a heap more stability in extreme conditions.

If you're using straps just take the back foot out of the strap and move it around.

Once you've got the foil wired with foot movements you can make an informed decision about moving the mast if you want to.

For pumping with a HA foil I like to be a little forward, get some speed on the surface, if necessary pump with both legs symmetrically (not trying to force the foil up with an olly), and slide off the surface. It's super easy to slide off with a little push from a wave.

In terms of being overfoiled, if you're just riding around in strong winds and chop then a really big foil can be ridden quite slowly so you can be very conservative and relaxed. It's only when you start dropping in to decently powered waves that a big foil becomes a disadvantage. That's when a small HA foil really comes into it's own.

I'm loving a relatively high aspect foil smaller. It's even better when combined with a longer mast.

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Gorgo said..
My solution to all foil trim problems is to simply move my feet. Usually moving the back foot forward about 50mm calms down the foil during starting and gives a heap more stability in extreme conditions.

If you're using straps just take the back foot out of the strap and move it around.

Once you've got the foil wired with foot movements you can make an informed decision about moving the mast if you want to.

For pumping with a HA foil I like to be a little forward, get some speed on the surface, if necessary pump with both legs symmetrically (not trying to force the foil up with an olly), and slide off the surface. It's super easy to slide off with a little push from a wave.

In terms of being overfoiled, if you're just riding around in strong winds and chop then a really big foil can be ridden quite slowly so you can be very conservative and relaxed. It's only when you start dropping in to decently powered waves that a big foil becomes a disadvantage. That's when a small HA foil really comes into it's own.

I'm loving a relatively high aspect foil smaller. It's even better when combined with a longer mast.

Thanks for input. Just a question on foot positions when fully powered. When you start do you have back foot further forward to get on foil, then move it back to usual riding position.

When pumping, you say" I like to be a little forward" again do you start off with feet forward, pump onto foil then move feet back to usual riding position once on foil.
Looking at the situation I was in I'm thinking more along the lines of I was hanging onto wing weight over back foot trying to gain some control. I think I might need to go with it a bit more and get some speed up, kind of against having that overpowered hunker down feeling. Cheers.

Why can't your "riding position" vary with windspeed?
More forward in high wind to keep the board under control, normal position in midrange winds.
Kinda like sheeting out your wing in gusts, pumping your wing/board in lulls.