Hey everyone, I am considering purchasing a new light wind board and am curious what people's opinions are now that we have so many new options this year with midlengths, different widths and different bottom designs. I am about 85kg and have a 99L Appletree dw skipper 6' 11" and have used an Armi 2023 7' 2" 106L. I found that I want a little more volume than the 99L on the real light wind days as I needed to keep that board moving forward to maintain stability while waiting for a gust to get going. Ideally this board would be able to get me up in 10knts (we get a lot of that in the summer) but also work up into the mid teens when I swap to my 70L. Using 1080HA Armstrong foil in these conditions and have 6m and 8m wings. I would prefer to have a board where I don't need to use a 8m wing.. Here is what I am currently considering- curious what people are preferring:

1) Higher volume, long and skinny to get up in the lightest breeze and take the compromise for the 14-16knot days. Think like the new KT Dragonfly Crossing 8'2" x 19.5' 112L or Appletree 7' 7" x 20" 110L

2) Higher volume or slightly higher volume dw board with more stable bottom shape, a little wider and a little shorter. This would help in choppier sea states when the breeze gets above 13knts and potentially provide a bit of a more stable platform in very light winds to generate stronger pumps during takeoff. This would be the new KT Dragonfly Surf 7"10" X 21" 110L or 7' 8" x 20.5" 105L or Armstrong7'2 x 20" 107L

3) Go for a higher volume mid length board in the 90L to 100L range only if someone can convince me that losing a foot+ of length and going lower volume really doesn't have much of an impact in the very light condition for an intermediate rider.

I weigh about the same as you and I have been using 115L AK Nomad 7'4 and 7'6 (21" wide) for light wind winging. I probably need 8kn constant to get up. When it's that light our wind fluctuates from 4-8/9kn and I need the higher end of that windrange to get going. Being able to stand and prepare for the oncoming gusts is so nice. It also allows me to go one or two foil sizes and still know I will get up.

I don't know the width of your current boards but it seems like you should already be able to accomplish your lightwind goals with that board size. Is there any reason you are opposed to just picking up the 1180 as your lightwind foil?

I'm 87kg plus all my gear. I'm very talented at getting up in light wind.
If it's averaging 10 knots I can get up with this. Once up as long as the average is 8 knots I can keep riding.
85l 5'10"x20" Sunova Carver
Cloud IX fs1150
Ocean Rodeo 4mAA

When it's 15ish knots with some decent swell I would stay on the 1150 if the swell is slow, if the swell is faster I would switch to Code 980s with 4mAA

When it reaches 20 knots with poor swell I ride 980s with 3mAA. With good swell I switch to Cloud IX fs850 with 3mAA

So, I'm shifting my foils a ton to match the conditions.

I have a 6'6" x 18" 90l Sunova Aviator coming in a month or so. I might be able to squeeze a little more lightwind performance out of it but really I got it so I could sail farther away from home, have the wind die, and have a more casual prone paddle back

I am 95 kg and have just purchased the 110L 7'8" Naish down winder and am loving it in 15knots on 1000cm foils and 5m wings. I can get my board displacement speed up to 8 knots in 10 knot wind and go up wind slogging it in displacement mode and stand on it in glassy conditions waiting for wind. I can get up on foil in a 6 knot gust with my 1305 fanatic glide and 8m ventis no worries. You could use a 6m but my pumping technique is still not good enough.

My anti-view is that unless you are into DW paddling and already have a longboard that you might want to wing then don't even bother thinking a DW board is the answer to all of your light wind winging problems.
With proper technique a mid length, narrower wing board makes a lot more sense in my view. I have used the Egg (5'10 * 23" * 92L) for a few years now and can get going in under 10 knots with a larger front foil (~1400 sqm). My largest wing is 4'6m and I'm 70 kgs. I did have a DW board briefly and winged it on occasion but it didn't have the agility of the Egg.

I'm about the same weight. Minimum low end with this setup is 8-G11 knots. Riding choppy ocean water.
KT Dragonfly 95l
Ocean Rodeo AA 6m
HA1250 North Sonar

i strongly believe that most important in light wind condition is weight of the wing and possibility to efficiently pump it(I sized down because of this from 8m-7m and now 6m) and of course shape of the board. Strongly suggest you to try KT downwind board or North Horizon. North looks almost the same.

Intermediate rider at 82 kg, I'm onto my second board, an AK Nomad 7' x 23"--about 15 sessions on it this season. I got this instead of going more "radical" with the Dragonfly etc. The Nomad has a flat bottom--no gimmicks--and wide enough to be more stable in chop. I really like it. Gets up plenty early for me in light winds with a 6.0 DLab Slick and an Axis HPS 1050. Nimble enough on foil to be a lot of fun. Less expensive than most other DW boards too. I've recently noticed that as my pumping improves I'm sometimes hitting the water with the tail of my board when I'm low on foil. Wonder if this is common among DW riders.

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robbo1111 said..
My anti-view is that unless you are into DW paddling and already have a longboard that you might want to wing then don't even bother thinking a DW board is the answer to all of your light wind winging problems.
With proper technique a mid length, narrower wing board makes a lot more sense in my view. I have used the Egg (5'10 * 23" * 92L) for a few years now and can get going in under 10 knots with a larger front foil (~1400 sqm). My largest wing is 4'6m and I'm 70 kgs. I did have a DW board briefly and winged it on occasion but it didn't have the agility of the Egg.

I'm with you in your anti-view.

The only reason to choose a DW board over a mid-length is if you ALSO want to use it for DW paddling purposes. Otherwise you don't need that extra length for winging.

I'm 85 kg and spent the last season on a 5'10" 85L 18" wide Sultan. It was my only board. Competent winger. Over the course of our spring and summer seasons my technique improved to the stage where I could easily ride it in 10-12 knot days with the Armie HA680/180 stab and my biggest wing (Armie XPS 5.3). I would have struggled at the start of the spring to do that. Technique like exactly where to point the board in light wind, using little bumps as a boost, when to pump the wing, how fast to pump the wing and when to bring the legs and body weight into play to pump the foil and how and when to combine the wing pump with the foil pump.

Also, in the early days after buying it I was a little disappointed, because I thought it was going to be a light wind (i.e. 10-12 knots) weapon. Much to my surprise, it was not really - BUT that was mostly my lack of technique and not the equipment. I would suggest I would have had a similar experience using a longer DW board.

If I had to do it again, I would go for a mid-length 15L or so above my body weight and probably in the 20" wide category. I think that would be much easier in those marginal days (10-12 knots), but technique will still be important.

So like so many things, technique trumps equipment. Hope that helps. Option #3 would be my suggestion.

Option 2 is the go-

I have spend a year riding the 107L , 7 2 Armie DW board for light wind winging and Sup foiling. My biggest wing was 5m allowing me to ride any 8-12knot days. (My weight 83Kg)

I have recently changed to the new Armie DW 116L, 7 - 9 which is a much easier board to Sup Foil but is also surprisingly better for light wing winging as the boxes are even further forward so the swing weight is well distributed and it gets up even earlier.

I have tried the Sultan and Carver 95L and 85L and find the bigger mid lengths do nothing well. You simply can't get going as easily or early as the DW boards then they feel too big and boxy when it's blowing.

Plus I usually run the 780HA when winging even on the lightest days and this is a point which is a significant advantage over the mid lengths where you will need either a bigger foil or wing to get going when under 12knots.

I have just ordered a 65L mid length which I will transition onto around 15 knots for where I live I think it's the perfect quiver,

At 95 kgs i use a custom board with a shape very close to the AFS Whitebird 6'8 x 23, 114 liters.
This board is/was a relevation for light winds and/or slogging in choppy water, after trying the Gong Cruzader Hipe 7'6 and 7'11, which also confirm the (my) "anti-view" an these longer DW-boards for winging.
The width and especially "stabilizer" or "aircraft-carrier" tailshape of the Whitebird adds so much stability to the board that slogging in chop is so much easier than it was with the Cruzaders.
Maybe i loose a notch in early takeoff, but that's just a notch, and with a 5.7 Ozone Flux (my biggest wing) and 1050 wing it covers a huge range from 10 - gusty 20 knots (above 15 i usually use a smaller 5'1 board).
For really light winds 5-12 knots i use the board with a 1240 wing and with the right pumping technique this combo gets going super early and feels much more agile than the longer DW boards.

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SpokeyDoke said..
No slight to b-walnut, as he knows way more than I do and is a great resource of advice and stoke, and a bigger foil might be the ticket!

No slight taken!I've tried to figure out how to properly say "this isn't easy and I have more experience trying this than anyone I know of and I did get quite good at it" but it's hard to fully convey that unless you've seen me out on glass water while its raining and I'm failing, failing, failing, failing, and then wow, succeeding while everyone is sitting in their car watching and waiting for the sun to come out and wind to come up.

Purely for stability commentary: Flat hulls have always been my favorite.
For board selection and change expectation on takeoff, make sure you're running your BAR+GF for boards with liters over your weight:
5'10"x20"x85l Carver = 4.48 for me, almost same as OP.
6'6"x18"x90l Aviator = 5.39 for me, almost same as OP.
So, I'm expecting a significant upgrade when that second board arrives.

Other things of note about lightwind skills and performance are:
Whatever your largest piece of gear is, will become the smallest possible piece of gear for you to succeed with. For example: I've never bought a wing larger than 4.5m. So, 4.5m has always been the gold standard for light winds. My current 4mAA is a big 4m and gets the job done. I've never liked foils with spans larger than 99cm, so, my biggest foil is my 1150 at 99cm. I've never been successful around 10 knots with anything smaller for wing and foil, but I also never owned anything bigger. So, while I expect my new board to be easier at the lowest of low ends, I don't expect, or desire, to be able to size down my wing or foil anymore.

I did own an 8' Barracuda to launch into my lightwind shenanigans. I bought that board to paddle so I could quit winging, but then saw the light and used that board to up my skill levels in every category as a winger and don't intend to paddle again. Longer is easier to get on foil for sure. Mid length will be more fun if you are a snappy/aggressive rider in the air.

My gear is also light. 4.88kg for a production board at 85l and is durable is not a normal weight as far as I know. I don't know if I would be as successful with heavier gear. I unweight my gear on takeoff and expect it to shoot up and out of the water. I don't know how that changes with several lbs of change. I also just picked up a Cedrus Evolution mast which is heavier, but also higher performance for pump feel. All this to say that every single piece of kit you change, impacts everything else in ways we don't fully understand, until we are deep into the experience.

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robbo1111 said..
My anti-view is that unless you are into DW paddling and already have a longboard that you might want to wing then don't even bother thinking a DW board is the answer to all of your light wind winging problems.
With proper technique a mid length, narrower wing board makes a lot more sense in my view. I have used the Egg (5'10 * 23" * 92L) for a few years now and can get going in under 10 knots with a larger front foil (~1400 sqm). My largest wing is 4'6m and I'm 70 kgs. I did have a DW board briefly and winged it on occasion but it didn't have the agility of the Egg.

I agree with this too. I can get my efficient -20L, 5' sinker going in sub 10 knots with a 5.7m sail. Could downsize that sail with a DW board, but in my opinion, sails only start to get really cumbersome above 6m or so. I'm tall, so maybe that influences my stance on this. I feel like the technique you learn getting a normal sized board up in lightwind is very helpful in understanding how to be efficient.

I also have a 9' DW board, but I never use it winging. In fact, my 5' -20 board is so efficient that I really don't use my 5'7 80L mini mid unless its 8 or less knots (probably get 2 knots benefit out of the 5'7 vs 5'.

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BWalnut said..
I unweight my gear on takeoff and expect it to shoot up and out of the water. I don't know how that changes with several lbs of change.

That is a very interesting question, considering that the sailor will usually outweigh the board by a factor or 10 or more. A lot of the advanced skill pumping action relates to reducing the downward pressure from sailor + board weight so that the board pops out of the water before the foil generates enough lift to push the entire weight out of the water.

In windsurfing, the effect of lowering board weight can seem very noticeable - a light carbon slalom board pops onto the plane much quicker than a heavier freeride board. But I've never done a side-to-side comparison of the board shape in different weights, so I'm not sure how much of the difference is due to board weight, and how much is due to other factors.

Thanks for all the thoughts and suggestion. A lot to digest- really appreciate it. Agree with some of the comments that as an intermediate having a little extra volume seems to just make progression a little easier and faster. Given where I am and the limited number of good wind days, maximizing my progression is high priority. I am also starting to realize that I think the rounded bottom shape of the Appletree Skipper DW may not be my preference for winging. Right now I'm leaning toward the new KT Dragonfly Surf in 110L but wondering if it's too long for winging at 7' 10". Doesn't seem like there is much of a length or weight penalty for going for the extra 5L over the 105.

Curious on people's thoughts on this new KT Super K 104 6' 9" by 23". Wondering if the width is a negative for real light wind?

I think light wind is a nebulous term that can mean a lot of different things for a lot of different people and will dictate which gear actually works for them and their skill level. Skill level can trump a lot of things but some of the factors are:

-gust volatiliity
-water surface state
-water density
-current
-density of air/wind

For us out here in San Francisco Bay Area, our light wind is really like 12kt but always seems to have decent gusts... we sail in denser salt water, and the air is relatively heavy? For me at 87kg, a 90l x 21" midlength works great with a 4.5... having ridden a larger 115l x 21" and longer board, it definitely has more stability and glide in really light wind situations (days where others are swimming back). I can stand on the board in almost zero wind. I can pump this board onto foil even when there really isn't enough wind to sustain flight with the wing with a big foil. If I lived somewhere with consistent very light wind with low gust potential I might opt for something like this instead.

tl;dr I would see what some of your local foilers are using in light wind and talk to them about what works and why. you are still likely to get a big variety of opinions, but perhaps there are some local factors that will influence what is optimal for your conditions and skill level.

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For me at 87kg, a 90l x 21" midlength works great with a 4.5

Can I ask which board you are using?

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robbo1111 said..
My anti-view is that unless you are into DW paddling and already have a longboard that you might want to wing then don't even bother thinking a DW board is the answer to all of your light wind winging problems.
With proper technique a mid length, narrower wing board makes a lot more sense in my view. I have used the Egg (5'10 * 23" * 92L) for a few years now and can get going in under 10 knots with a larger front foil (~1400 sqm). My largest wing is 4'6m and I'm 70 kgs. I did have a DW board briefly and winged it on occasion but it didn't have the agility of the Egg.

I am anti-anti-view.... I am 110kg and have ridden everything from 47l sinkers up to 135l DW boards over the past 5 years.

I do not DW paddle or prone, but ease of a 22 inch wide DW board winging in almost all conditions really makes them a good one board solution.

Our conditions are mostly 8 to 12 knots and getting up on the DW board is pretty easy. We get the odd 20 to 40 knot day and riding the DW is no drama at all in the higher wind conditions.

You lose a little bit in swing weight, but not enough to make the struggle of a shorter board worth the hassle.

Also pretty easy to get back to shore when you wind disappears.

I sold my 75 and 95 litre short boards recently because I stopped riding them.

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bigtone667 said..

robbo1111 said..
My anti-view is that unless you are into DW paddling and already have a longboard that you might want to wing then don't even bother thinking a DW board is the answer to all of your light wind winging problems.
With proper technique a mid length, narrower wing board makes a lot more sense in my view. I have used the Egg (5'10 * 23" * 92L) for a few years now and can get going in under 10 knots with a larger front foil (~1400 sqm). My largest wing is 4'6m and I'm 70 kgs. I did have a DW board briefly and winged it on occasion but it didn't have the agility of the Egg.

I am anti-anti-view.... I am 110kg and have ridden everything from 47l sinkers up to 135l DW boards over the past 5 years.

I do not DW paddle or prone, but ease of a 22 inch wide DW board winging in almost all conditions really makes them a good one board solution.

Our conditions are mostly 8 to 12 knots and getting up on the DW board is pretty easy. We get the odd 20 to 40 knot day and riding the DW is no drama at all in the higher wind conditions.

You lose a little bit in swing weight, but not enough to make the struggle of a shorter board worth the hassle.

Also pretty easy to get back to shore when you wind disappears.

I sold my 75 and 95 litre short boards recently because I stopped riding them.

You omitted stating that your experience includes well over 5,000k windwing in the last 22 months .

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warwickl said..

bigtone667 said..

robbo1111 said..
My anti-view is that unless you are into DW paddling and already have a longboard that you might want to wing then don't even bother thinking a DW board is the answer to all of your light wind winging problems.
With proper technique a mid length, narrower wing board makes a lot more sense in my view. I have used the Egg (5'10 * 23" * 92L) for a few years now and can get going in under 10 knots with a larger front foil (~1400 sqm). My largest wing is 4'6m and I'm 70 kgs. I did have a DW board briefly and winged it on occasion but it didn't have the agility of the Egg.

I am anti-anti-view.... I am 110kg and have ridden everything from 47l sinkers up to 135l DW boards over the past 5 years.

I do not DW paddle or prone, but ease of a 22 inch wide DW board winging in almost all conditions really makes them a good one board solution.

Our conditions are mostly 8 to 12 knots and getting up on the DW board is pretty easy. We get the odd 20 to 40 knot day and riding the DW is no drama at all in the higher wind conditions.

You lose a little bit in swing weight, but not enough to make the struggle of a shorter board worth the hassle.

Also pretty easy to get back to shore when you wind disappears.

I sold my 75 and 95 litre short boards recently because I stopped riding them.

You omitted stating that your experience includes well over 5,000k windwing in the last 22 months .

Edit 12 months

I rode my 102l barracuda v1 today for the first time in a long time. I've been just riding a 60l light and efficient boardshape in between. It was such a downer being on the barracuda. It felt like a sluggish dump truck. Granted, the wind picked up to quite breezy when I thought it was gonna be glassy so there really was no need for the bigger board, but I'm definitely starting to fall into the alternative activity camp if it's not windy enough for a smaller board. The low end difference is also not that big between the barracuda and the 60l

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max_ob said..

For me at 87kg, a 90l x 21" midlength works great with a 4.5

Can I ask which board you are using?

AFS Blackbird 6'2" x 21" @ 90l

I have found it to be quite fun. One guy here has been using it the last year as his everyday board. I have a toddler now and I don't get to pick my sessions anymore. The Blackbird is my session saver when I just need to go have some fun and conditions aren't exactly cooperating. I've had some of my best days this year on it days I would have struggled or not gone out on the 65l

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slowmotion160 said..


Curious on people's thoughts on this new KT Super K 104 6' 9" by 23". Wondering if the width is a negative for real light wind?

yes, too wide. It should have been under 21 wide,

I'm 85kg and love riding my KT Dragonfly 7' 19" 100L when wind conditions are not great. Board is super light and rips. Only thing it's not good at is hitting white water. Gets up and going so easy. Matched up with the AFS Silk 1050 and Unit 3.5m it's been such a great setup and the slightest breeze I can get up on foil and have a great time.

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sunsetsailboards said..

max_ob said..

For me at 87kg, a 90l x 21" midlength works great with a 4.5

Can I ask which board you are using?

AFS Blackbird 6'2" x 21" @ 90l

I have found it to be quite fun. One guy here has been using it the last year as his everyday board. I have a toddler now and I don't get to pick my sessions anymore. The Blackbird is my session saver when I just need to go have some fun and conditions aren't exactly cooperating. I've had some of my best days this year on it days I would have struggled or not gone out on the 65l

Do you know the length of the foil track on the AFS Blackbird?