I have two boards. The Omen flux 60L (21" wide, 5'2" long) and Sultan Wing 105L (20" wide, 6'5" long). When the wind picks up (lets say >18kts), I often struggle a bit getting the Sultan on foil (whereas have no difficult with the Omen. The problem seems to be "trackiness" of the longer board. If I get off my line for the start (eg heading too far downwind), it seems to just want to keep going in that direction until I fall. In contrast, the Omen remains maneuverable, affording easy takeoff course corrections.

I don't think I'm imagining this but don't see much written about this aspect of longer boards (or perhaps it's specific to the Sultan?). Is this a widely understood phenomenon? Is there a technique "fix?"

It's just a skill for handling larger boards and learning how to manage your wing and pivot turn them if necessary. The sultan will take off better than the omen for sure. You need to use the wing to pivot the board direction correctly and also learn to flag the wing instead of letting it power you straight downwind in the wrong direction.

*edit* the Sultan wing is also pretty thick, which adds to the challenge IMO.

Don't worry, you'll likely find the Sultan doesn't last long enough for it to be an issue

I'm glad you ask this stumbleweed. When I started on a mid length I was surprised and disappoionted with similar experiences. I think the current plays a significant role. If the current is same as wind direction I can still have problems to control a mid length when I try to pump on foil. The board tends to go straight downwind and when I get on foil the speed suddenly drops. When I turn to the other direction, often no problems. My way of getting on foil is: first generate some foward speed with the wing. Then start pumping the foil. When you're getting on foil concentrate pumping on the stab. On mid lengths I often step a bit more forward to get on foil. Once on foil I step a bit backward again.

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Mark _australia said..
Don't worry, you'll likely find the Sultan doesn't last long enough for it to be an issue

Nailed it

My Amos Sultan wing/prone is solid and undamaged after a years hard use.

It's the rocker!

When I saw what Frank boards was doing, literally bending the deck up behind the foot, to get tons of back end rocker, while not losing all your volume back there, the light bulb went off in my head. Several custom boards from famous shapers at the FSRL in Florida, also had tons of rocker at the back end too. I'd call it the Frank board trend.

I built myself a board inspired by this trend. My mid lengths run 6'2-6'7 currently.

Wow..what a difference. My mid length surfs like a non-mid length, but takes off like the best mid length I've ever ridden. The tail never, ever, taps, no matter how hard you surf or the sea state. It pumps so much better too.

Be on the lookout for this trend when shopping for a new board.

I noticed some new models of mid lengths saw the return of the horrible tail notch from the old days. This could be another way of solving the problem. I think the Frank way looks better to me.

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DWF said..
It's the rocker!

When I saw what Frank boards was doing, literally bending the deck up behind the foot, to get tons of back end rocker, while not losing all your volume back there, the light bulb went off in my head. Several custom boards from famous shapers at the FSRL in Florida, also had tons of rocker at the back end too. I'd call it the Frank board trend.

I built myself a board inspired by this trend. My mid lengths run 6'2-6'7 currently.

Wow..what a difference. My mid length surfs like a non-mid length, but takes off like the best mid length I've ever ridden. The tail never, ever, taps, no matter how hard you surf or the sea state. It pumps so much better too.

Be on the lookout for this trend when shopping for a new board.

I noticed some new models of mid lengths saw the return of the horrible tail notch from the old days. This could be another way of solving the problem. I think the Frank way looks better to me.

Good point about the rocker! I once saw a video with a DW board review that stated there are 2 schools of thought with those type of board. Flat rocker, increasing the waterline and get to speed earlier to initiate take-off; Or boards with tailrocker to facilitate pumping style take-off.

The latter might be better for winging purposes, but haven't tried this myself.
In regard to the tracking; would there be a big difference between the shape of the tall? Lots of midlength boards having a pin tail, others a more square one.

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BWalnut said..
It's just a skill for handling larger boards and learning how to manage your wing and pivot turn them if necessary. The sultan will take off better than the omen for sure. You need to use the wing to pivot the board direction correctly and also learn to flag the wing instead of letting it power you straight downwind in the wrong direction.

*edit* the Sultan wing is also pretty thick, which adds to the challenge IMO.

Can you please elaborate on, "...use the wing to pivot the board direction..." Thanks

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Mark _australia said..
Don't worry, you'll likely find the Sultan doesn't last long enough for it to be an issue

What problems do you see with them?

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DWF said..
It's the rocker!

When I saw what Frank boards was doing, literally bending the deck up behind the foot, to get tons of back end rocker, while not losing all your volume back there, the light bulb went off in my head. Several custom boards from famous shapers at the FSRL in Florida, also had tons of rocker at the back end too. I'd call it the Frank board trend.

I built myself a board inspired by this trend. My mid lengths run 6'2-6'7 currently.

Wow..what a difference. My mid length surfs like a non-mid length, but takes off like the best mid length I've ever ridden. The tail never, ever, taps, no matter how hard you surf or the sea state. It pumps so much better too.

Be on the lookout for this trend when shopping for a new board.

I noticed some new models of mid lengths saw the return of the horrible tail notch from the old days. This could be another way of solving the problem. I think the Frank way looks better to me.

Does more rocker help against trackiness? How? Easier pumping sounds counter inuitive to me. I would think less rocker = bigger planing surface = easier to make speed.

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DWF said..
It's the rocker!

When I saw what Frank boards was doing, literally bending the deck up behind the foot, to get tons of back end rocker, while not losing all your volume back there, the light bulb went off in my head. Several custom boards from famous shapers at the FSRL in Florida, also had tons of rocker at the back end too. I'd call it the Frank board trend.

I built myself a board inspired by this trend. My mid lengths run 6'2-6'7 currently.

Wow..what a difference. My mid length surfs like a non-mid length, but takes off like the best mid length I've ever ridden. The tail never, ever, taps, no matter how hard you surf or the sea state. It pumps so much better too.

Be on the lookout for this trend when shopping for a new board.

I noticed some new models of mid lengths saw the return of the horrible tail notch from the old days. This could be another way of solving the problem. I think the Frank way looks better to me.

I couldn't find a good pic of the Frank board in profile to see the tail rocker. Could you post one of yours.

For sure the rear 2/3 of the Sultan Wing is flat (with a small bevel at the tail).

When I paddled my 6'7 x 19.7 mid length with Frank board style rocker, versus my older less rockered board, the Frank board style paddled noticeably faster. Pulling force on the paddle blade was less too. I did this test, just to judge the board drag at slow speed. It's not a board I could SUP, but I can paddle it well enough for testing in flat water.

Regard tail widths, it's being dictated by the need for enough volume behind the rider to match what's in front of the rider. The board needs to be balanced. This is where the genius of kicking the deck up behind the riders comes into play. It lets you narrow the tail out, get lots of rocker, and keep enough volume in the back end to balance out the shape.

I think you can see it in this photo. The deck looks more kicked up at the rear than at the nose.

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RolfB said..

Does more rocker help against trackiness? How? Easier pumping sounds counter inuitive to me. I would think less rocker = bigger planing surface = easier to make speed.

Look at the Frank board photo I posted above. It's a banana on the bottom side. No tracking. Yet, when sunk down into the water the right amount. Deck flush with water surface, you get the full length of the board acting to help initiate speed in displacement mode. Once half way up, floatation wise, speed is building and the banana bottom water line length is reducing, which is OK because your speed is there now.

The more my wife and I wing these shapes, the more blown away were are. It fires up like a rocket ship.

If Adrian and Evan read this...get Frank to design your wing boards too!

For comparison, here's a pic of my Sultan Wing, with zero tail rocker.

Ah.that's what my boards used to look like!

BTW, there is rocker in that Sultan when measured like surfboards are done. But heaps less rocker than the Franks style.

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Stumbleweed said..

Mark _australia said..
Don't worry, you'll likely find the Sultan doesn't last long enough for it to be an issue

What problems do you see with them?

Simply not enough laminate - track movement, verrry thin on corners. Belligerent attitude to warranty, but then when you read the exclusions - wow.

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DWF said..
It's the rocker!

When I saw what Frank boards was doing, literally bending the deck up behind the foot, to get tons of back end rocker, while not losing all your volume back there, the light bulb went off in my head. Several custom boards from famous shapers at the FSRL in Florida, also had tons of rocker at the back end too. I'd call it the Frank board trend.

I built myself a board inspired by this trend. My mid lengths run 6'2-6'7 currently.

Wow..what a difference. My mid length surfs like a non-mid length, but takes off like the best mid length I've ever ridden. The tail never, ever, taps, no matter how hard you surf or the sea state. It pumps so much better too.

Be on the lookout for this trend when shopping for a new board.

I noticed some new models of mid lengths saw the return of the horrible tail notch from the old days. This could be another way of solving the problem. I think the Frank way looks better to me.

Can you post a picture of your board please mate

Here is a rocker view of my 6'7. I put a pad under the stab on the ground to level the deck. Otherwise deck angle would be upward just like the Sultan image. I'd guess the Sultan and my board have similar angles at the track location.

Interesting...for some reason that shot looks quite a bit different than all the others I've seen so far...especially the upturn on the deck (in addition to the hull). I'll be curious to see how this "Frank board trend" gets copied/modified...thanks!

check out how hard it can be pumped before the tail taps. It's what every flat water paddler dreams about. The surprise is how well it works for winging.

More story..

I first became interested in the Frank story when claims said the banana rocker of flipping the tail up, created a U shape that magically increased board side to side stability. I wasn't sure this held true, but was willing to try it when combined with my personal experience trying extreme rocker years ago. Extreme rocker was amazing, but a challenge in fore and aft stability. Way back then, all boards were short. So how would extreme rocker feel with today's much longer boards? Maybe great?

The result with my shape, was awesome on the big rocker and B.S. on the U shape increasing side to side stability. Cannot speak to how a real Frank board feels. If I were to guess what leans people into thinking this is more stable, it's likely the tremendous reduction in drag making speed quickly and thus creating stability faster.

You built this board, correct? That's outstanding but well beyond my capabilities.

Are there any wing focused mid lengths currently on the market incorporating the tail rocker concept?

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DWF said..
Here is a rocker view of my 6'7. I put a pad under the stab on the ground to level the deck. Otherwise deck angle would be upward just like the Sultan image. I'd guess the Sultan and my board have similar angles at the track location.

Are the tracks parallel to the deck or are they in the rocker curve?

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DWF said..
check out how hard it can be pumped before the tail taps. It's what every flat water paddler dreams about. The surprise is how well it works for winging.

I tihnk the difference with Franks is that he's trimmed the tail to be level with the deck so it has the rocker but not the added volume in the tail. Personally I think side to side stability is mostly dealt with either in the head (if first sessions using a narrow board) & /or with experience. It's the fore aft stability in shorter narrow boards that I'm looking to understand. Does yours have good for/aft stability?

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Stumbleweed said..
You built this board, correct? That's outstanding but well beyond my capabilities.

Are there any wing focused mid lengths currently on the market incorporating the tail rocker concept?

I've been shaping for 20 years as a business. Closed it 5 or 6 years ago to retire. Only build for me and my wife now.

I thought I saw custom KTs with similar tails to Franks, though not as extreme. This was at the Foil Surf Race League.

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Seastudent said..
Are the tracks parallel to the deck or are they in the rocker curve?

Not parallel to the deck.

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Microsurfer said..

I tihnk the difference with Franks is that he's trimmed the tail to be level with the deck so it has the rocker but not the added volume in the tail. Personally I think side to side stability is mostly dealt with either in the head (if first sessions using a narrow board) & /or with experience. It's the fore aft stability in shorter narrow boards that I'm looking to understand. Does yours have good for/aft stability?

Take another look at the Frank board. The deck absolutely rises behind the rear foot. There is no reason to do this other than reducing volume losses.

Fore and aft stability is great at 6'2-6'7 lengths. I don't consider under 6 feet to be a modern mid length. It's old tech to me. So much performance lost being short. But that's me. We'll see if the trend moves longer.

I see Frank board influence in this just released new Armstrong board.

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Guess I'll wait until there's something under 6'6" with this shape.