I have joined the now fairly large club of 'The cobbler stung' at Hardies today. Foot now in hot water, need to add some more hotter water. ahh that is better
It got me on the side of the foot as I slowly walked up wind waiting for the 3.00 race to get underway today.
I was going to do a Nm run. That will have to wait.
Wow there must be a lot of them in the water there, this injury is becoming very common.
Any great ideas on how to reduce the chance of injury? I was wearing shoes (the split toe ones, not sure of the make. Am considering investing in some thicker neoprene boots for winter but I suspect neoprene is to soft to be much good)
Anyone know why hot water reduces the pain so well?

see page 14 of:
http://www.fish.wa.gov.au/docs/pub/WestSpeciesID/westcoast_speciesid_2008.pdf


Cobbler (estuary catfish)
VENOMOUS
Cnidoglanis macrocephalus
Habitat: Marine bays, inlets, lower-mid estuaries.
Grows to: About 91cm and 2.6kg.
Reproduction: Matures at about 40cm and two
and a half years. Nests in burrows.
Life span: Around 13 years.
Features: Slender body, eel-like tail, flat head with
four pair of barbels around mouth. Venomous
spine in dorsal and pectoral fins.

Bugger You can't take a trick atm Steve

Select to expand quote

evets said...

Anyone know why hot water reduces the pain so well?

Maybe because the hot water over powers the pain of the venom? I dont know? Just a guess?
I have heard of people going to hospital with 3rd degree burns from the hot water
Get well soon

Thanks Greenroom.
whatever the hot water does it really works well

Steve, use a heat pack, much easier to carry around, you can also put it the bed with you to help take the edge of it and help you get of to sleep

Thanks for the tip Elmo

First, where is Hardies so I can stay well away?

Why does hot water help?
I'm told that hot water is good for marine stings and ice for terrestrial animal stings.
Venoms are proteins and I think the extreme temperature denatures the protein thereby inactivating it. The protein is more susceptible to the temperature extreme it is least likely to encounter in it's natural environment.

Yep, the heat denatures the proteins in the sting.

But that's not the only thing that happens, you also don't feel any pain from the very hot water.
(That's why it's a good idea to put both feet in, so you can tell if it's too hot!)
You can sit quite comfortably with a foot in water that would normally feel very uncomfortable, why is that?????

Select to expand quote

decrepit said...

But that's not the only thing that happens, you also don't feel any pain from the very hot water.
(That's why it's a good idea to put both feet in, so you can tell if it's too hot!)
You can sit quite comfortably with a foot in water that would normally feel very uncomfortable, why is that?????

Your foot f'ken hurts way more from the sting than the burns.

Cobblers, still an experience you can not fully comprehend until you get tagged by one of the blighters

ahhhhh the happy memories of turning upto joondalup emergency with my foot in a bucket of warm water... and asking the nurse to pop the kettle on - to top me up

go the needle and get some local - instant fix

i think it would be similar to lionfish or stone fish posion in that the hot water isolates the poison and stops it from spreading, from memory it hardens it up...

Select to expand quote

Windxtasy said...

First, where is Hardies so I can stay well away?

Mandurah Estuary, from Novara going North to the boat channel. Lots of nice shallow water full of rocks, crabs and cobblers

steel plate in your booties.. only way to stop em..

if you step down on the fish which has sensed your presence it sticks up its spine (1 top and 1 each side) and locks it in place. its about 4mm in diameter at the base, 1-2m at the tip - hardened bone. with a sweet little locking mechanism like a pocket knife. step. pressure. ouch. -- ohh did i mention there is a small tube up the middle for administering the pain juice. and also barbs along the shaft
(did an autopsy on on a 60cm one when i caught one down south)

no rubber is gonna stop it.

moral of the story - sail on the ocean and take your chances with the sharks

(i know cobbler are in the ocean too.. just not like the estuary :P)

Wear DOC MARTENS

Actually that's not very original -- I think I've seen a few kiters wearing them with their polka dot boardies.........

how about fine stainless steel mesh inside your booties?? Kind of like termimesh stuff.
Anyone wanna give my crazy idea a go??

I'm thinking it must be the only area at Mandurah that still has any fish

maybe get all the fisho's down there as much as possible to catch them all.... cobbler are pretty sought after anyway. Perhaps let out a "major secret" that cobbler are on at this 'secret spot' at Mandurah.... they'll be there every night catching them and problem solved

I managed to get stung again today. This time in only about 500mm of water. Could it be breeding season bringing them into shallow water? Any marine biologists/ knowledgeable anglers out there care to comment

You may have to shuffle your feet on the bottom.
I stood on a stingray (I"m guessing) which felt like a 3" nail. Was given a local and pethadine which done nothing for the pain but made driving to hospital somewhat interesting (try driving a manual with just your left foot in traffic while off your face).
Was given the hot water treatment which made my skin peel, looked like I had a thick woolen red sock on, would not want a matching pair.
I feel your pain

Whilst toiling away under the hot pilbara sun my minions of trained cobbler have been entrusted with protecting my pb's on Hardies run. I can see that the discipline rod will have to be brought out yet again. [}:)][}:)]

The denaturing protein argument is commonly espoused but the temperature require to affect the toxin would also affect all the other proteins in your body. Cooking your foot is not a good idea.

Pain attenuation by overloading the nerves through temperature sensation is the probable reason for the relief of symptoms. This is highlighted by the fact if you remove the heat, the pain returns... if the toxins had been denatured this would not happen.

The temperature probably speeds the spread of the toxin through vessel dilation but in this case that may be better as it reduces the concentration and may prevent localised necrosis.

see Journal of neurophysiology 2005, vol. 94, no5, pp. 3509-3515 [7 page(s)
journals.physiology.org/action/cookieAbsent
"study 1 demonstrate that repeated stimulation with noxious heat can lead to long-term attenuation of pain perception.."

According to the Australian Prescriber this is the treatment.

First aid for venomous fish stings is hot water (45?C) immersion of the affected limb for up to 90 minutes.
The temperature must be tested with an unaffected limb first. Anecdotally hot water provides symptomatic relief, but the pain may recur when the affected limb is removed from the water.
With more severe or non-responsive pain, oral and occasionally parenteral analgesia is required. Infiltration of the wound with local anaesthetic or a regional nerve block is often more effective. However, the patient must be warned that hot water treatment should not be used after the limb is anaesthetised because of the risk of thermal injury. All wounds must be thoroughly cleaned and irrigated. Any pieces of spine should be removed.

As to treading on Cobblers. The last time I was stung, I was standing still in knee deep water and one swam up to the side of my foot , rolled on it side and speared me through my booties. So it seems if you are close they go the extra distance.

Thanks Yoyo. The denaturing idea seemed odd to me as I suspect the venom i s a fair way inside the flesh and I would have thought the heat is not well transferred deep into the foot.
Whatever the mechanism it works really well. Not for just 90 minutes though. My last sting took a good 6 1/2 hours before I could keep out of the water (luckily for me I have had about an hour both times to get home and get the foot into water before becoming agonising. I am fortunate that I live 5 minutes from my local cobbler speed hotspot.
If I had to drive much I would go to hospital and beg for local anaesthetic.
What does occur to me is that if a sting were to be elsewhere on the body it could be really uncomfortable: at Hardies I regularly am in very shallow water: when hugely overpowered I waterstart rather than beach start even in 500mm of water. A sting on the upper body could be nasty!