Why do most series wave boards come out without enough toe in?

Because then you would have to design fins that are asymetric.
Simmer runs at about 1degree boxes on fronts.
Got some 1degree asymetric k4 incinerators and there was a marked improvement in turn initiation for that board as a quad .

yes..in the quad you don't need so much convergence but in tri fin it is more important

You can get Ezzys up to 3degrees
Incinerators to 2degree.

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Rango said..
Because then you would have to design fins that are asymetric.
Simmer runs at about 1degree boxes on fronts.
Got some 1degree asymetric k4 incinerators and there was a marked improvement in turn initiation for that board as a quad .

I have a custom wave board from the same shaper with 2?toe in,the board has mfc normal wave fins, not asymetric.(I don't know if asymmetric would work better)
the strange thing is that the production boards do not seem to get the full potential they have. and they don't report it. It is normal that they cannot adjust the length of the fin for everyone, but they can adjust the angle as in the custom boards for surfing. It is a detail that changes the table a lot.

I don't know why/how they decide on the toe-in on commercial boards, but there has certainly been a lot of discussion on the topic.
The Quads from Starboard in (2010-2011) came with zero toe-in, almost like they assume that for windsurfing (as compared to surfing) there would be no need for toe-in, and then didn't even try it...?

Witchcraft has perhaps taken the analysis the furthest: witchcraft.nu/boards/trifin/

Personally I just get a few different K4 fins and then play around with the toe-in until I'm happy with the feeling on the water. On their asymmetric fins I think that 1 degree is about neutral (due to the profile) and you'll want to try the 2 or 3 degree ones in order to get more toe-in.

I have a production 5 box board which shipped as a thruster that actually has a touch of toe out and it's miserable with the stock fins. 2 degree Ezzys are barely enough and I'm likely to get a set of 3 degree.

By comparison those same 2 degree Ezzys in my Simmer are brilliant.

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Grantmac said..
I have a production 5 box board which shipped as a thruster that actually has a touch of toe out and it's miserable with the stock fins. 2 degree Ezzys are barely enough and I'm likely to get a set of 3 degree.

By comparison those same 2 degree Ezzys in my Simmer are brilliant.

It's more likely the board than the fins if you already like those fins on a different board.

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santi4 said..

Rango said..
Because then you would have to design fins that are asymetric.
Simmer runs at about 1degree boxes on fronts.
Got some 1degree asymetric k4 incinerators and there was a marked improvement in turn initiation for that board as a quad .

I have a custom wave board from the same shaper with 2?toe in,the board has mfc normal wave fins, not asymetric.(I don't know if asymmetric would work better)
the strange thing is that the production boards do not seem to get the full potential they have. and they don't report it. It is normal that they cannot adjust the length of the fin for everyone, but they can adjust the angle as in the custom boards for surfing. It is a detail that changes the table a lot.

I asked the designer of the board what fins to try.Ola suggested 1 degree which adds up to 2 degree roughly with the box toe.
Made me wonder why the board never came stock like that.

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philn said..

Grantmac said..
I have a production 5 box board which shipped as a thruster that actually has a touch of toe out and it's miserable with the stock fins. 2 degree Ezzys are barely enough and I'm likely to get a set of 3 degree.

By comparison those same 2 degree Ezzys in my Simmer are brilliant.

It's more likely the board than the fins if you already like those fins on a different board.

Oh it's definitely the board, I measured something like 0.5 degrees total toe out!

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Grantmac said.. Oh it's definitely the board, I measured something like 0.5 degrees total toe out!

I use 3 degrees in the front and 2 degrees in the back of my Starboard Quad with 4 parallel boxes.

I know to what extent apart from the convergence the twist of the fins influences...the ezzy are very soft...flikka you also have the option of putting more toe in and they seem harder. for me after my tests (I continue) I am excited with the turns that I am achieving with trifin ... in onshore conditions sometimes it is better thruster .... but that depends a lot on the day. I hope this topic will be useful to many people

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SurferKris said..

Grantmac said.. Oh it's definitely the board, I measured something like 0.5 degrees total toe out!

I use 3 degrees in the front and 2 degrees in the back of my Starboard Quad with 4 parallel boxes.

And that's on a quad which requires less front toe. On a thruster +3 degrees seems useful.
I may need to do some ordering since I'm not thrilled with this board. If I put enough fin in for upwind it doesn't turn great.

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what model of board is it? What fin size do you have...k4? what do you weigh? to have a reference..

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santi4 said..
Why do most series wave boards come out without enough toe in?

I guess their competition winning team riders provide feedback on the fin set ups that work best to give the best performance and they listen to these guys and design accordingly.
Your statement implies that you know better.

www.k4fins.com/2022/03/04/cv-fins/
No straight fin setups here .Maybe they know better.

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R1DER said..

santi4 said..
Why do most series wave boards come out without enough toe in?

I guess their competition winning team riders provide feedback on the fin set ups that work best to give the best performance and they listen to these guys and design accordingly.
Your statement implies that you know better.

Or maybe they just use a **** set up and the competition riders are so good that they can overcome the problems.
Never underestimate the sheeple tendencies of even the best riders.

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R1DER said..

santi4 said..
Why do most series wave boards come out without enough toe in?

I guess their competition winning team riders provide feedback on the fin set ups that work best to give the best performance and they listen to these guys and design accordingly.
Your statement implies that you know better.

Or maybe none of those guys are on production boards.
You can see the toe in the boxes on that K4 link and then they add even more via fins.
My Cobra built boards haven't had toe (except accidental minor toe out on an RRD). Simmer which is made by Kinetic does.

Thomas Traversa is for sure not on production boards, they don't produce those small volume boards.
The 1 degree angle together with the assymetric profile makes for a 0 degree angle of attack, effectively.

Or it could be that custom board has 2 degrees original + 1 degree of fin to give you a total of 3?....which according to k4 is ideal for thruster...+ the EXTRA flex(twist)...

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santi4 said..
Or it could be that custom board has 2 degrees original + 1 degree of fin to give you a total of 3?....which according to k4 is ideal for thruster...+ the EXTRA flex(twist)...

Exactly.

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santi4 said..
Why do most series wave boards come out without enough toe in?

My guess is because they are designed for the average windsurfer and must work well in a wide range of conditions. I see lot of people using multifin boards in lakes when it's very windy, basically blasing on straight line; so they are not limited to surf waves.

Less toe-in causes less drag whereas more toe-in makes turning easier.

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flyingmujol said..

santi4 said..
Why do most series wave boards come out without enough toe in?

My guess is because they are designed for the average windsurfer and must work well in a wide range of conditions. I see lot of people using multifin boards in lakes when it's very windy, basically blasing on straight line; so they are not limited to surf waves.

Less toe-in causes less drag whereas more toe-in makes turning easier.

Untoed boxes are actually more drag, especially on a thruster.
It's done because it's cheaper and most people don't notice. The manufacturer also oversizes the back fin and undersizes the front to make it less obvious.

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Grantmac said..

flyingmujol said..

santi4 said..
Why do most series wave boards come out without enough toe in?

My guess is because they are designed for the average windsurfer and must work well in a wide range of conditions. I see lot of people using multifin boards in lakes when it's very windy, basically blasing on straight line; so they are not limited to surf waves.

Less toe-in causes less drag whereas more toe-in makes turning easier.

Untoed boxes are actually more drag, especially on a thruster.
It's done because it's cheaper and most people don't notice. The manufacturer also oversizes the back fin and undersizes the front to make it less obvious.

What. And what the to the people that green thumbed this.

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Gestalt said..

Grantmac said..

flyingmujol said..

santi4 said..
Why do most series wave boards come out without enough toe in?

My guess is because they are designed for the average windsurfer and must work well in a wide range of conditions. I see lot of people using multifin boards in lakes when it's very windy, basically blasing on straight line; so they are not limited to surf waves.

Less toe-in causes less drag whereas more toe-in makes turning easier.

Untoed boxes are actually more drag, especially on a thruster.
It's done because it's cheaper and most people don't notice. The manufacturer also oversizes the back fin and undersizes the front to make it less obvious.

What. And what the to the people that green thumbed this.

What is your point?

My point was that i couldn't disagree more and can't believe people would green thumb this post. do people actually believe this? what evidence is there to back up the post.

You do not believe that side fins set at zero degree are higher drag than side fins set with toe in? Is that correct?

I do not believe that no toe side fins have more drag. this has not been my experience with my own boards nor has it been a view presented to me by any shapers i have spoken with including the ones that shaped the boards getting sold in shops. i'd say that if shapers make a big deal about this are probably shilling their own products.

this is also not a view held in the surfing world. tow-in boards have no toe side fins as one example.

to be honest side are rarely set at zero degree anyways. usually there is a minimal toe (1mm) due to construction tolerances to avoid fins that toe outwards.

i do believe, that adding toe does improve the maneuverability of a board.
lets remember, a windsurfer is not a thruster surfboard. a windsurfer needs to be able to sail in a straight line at speed. this is also the reason why windsurfers are 2+1 fin setups and not thrusters. (a thruster gains speed by turning.)
most people would find a true thruster setup unusable with a rear fin that is too small. hence why rear fins are bigger. i'd actually say rear fins are sized to suit your average punter who need a slightly bigger fin.

some reading links below.
www.jobsurfexperience.com/blog/everything-you-need-to-know-about-surfboard-fins/#:~:text=Unlike%20twins%20and%20single%20fins,slower%20sections%20of%20the%20wave.
"thrusters lack drive and must be pumped heavily to generate speed through slower sections of the wave"

www.blinksurf.com/general-discussion/why-are-side-fins-toed-in/
"So this is turning the side fins away from the center stringer. This will increase the surfboard's speed and drive"

Another point of view:
witchcraft.nu/boards/trifin/

I use quite big sides and relatively small centres. I have done quite a lot of "testing" by feeling of toe and fin set ups. Larger sides without toe "feel" draggy to me ( They also don't turn, especially at initiation- straight lining) I don't know if this can be measured with a GPS as I have only been doing this for myself, so I am only interested in my own feel and enjoyment. Small sides /zero toe with a larger centre mitigate the draggy feeling, but then I feel I may as well set up as a single. I am an average wave sailor and I m talking about front side sailing in groundswell waves. I have also found that fin set up in onshore conditions is much less critical, I can generally carry much larger fin clusters, and I don't find toe to be as critical either. Your experiences may differ...

I was referring to wave boards in waves... in a straight line or lake I don't understand the meaning of 3 fins or toe in angle.
If I buy a rally car, it doesn't make sense for it to leave the factory with normal street springs.
I understand that most of the promotional videos focus on the waves of Kanaha or Hookipa. I think most of us have sold boards without really knowing their potential. ..and the designers know that they can work much better in waves than out of the shop.