Went out at Wanda yesterday afternoon after the long little wind break to be greated by marginal but ridable wind n waves and..... the not so friendly surfers who insisted on floating in the 2-4ft waves and get SH**** when you the windsurfer are found on a wave BTing downwind and they're comming upwind. Who needs to bail? 2 weeks ago I bailed over a dozen waves when I encountered surfers downwind of me in the surf or shore break which resulted in me getting cleaned up at one stage by my mast in the surf and bruising a rib which still hasn't recovered, whilst making sure my kit doesn't end up on them and injur them.....

BTW, I bailed on a wave yesterday to let a surfer take the lip, even though I was riding the wave b4 him, to which all he could do was say F*** off and take your friends with you,....... ie 1/2 dozen windsurfers and couple of kiters also riding the waves.......

Is there an unwritten code that WE need to follow? , whoever gets on the wave first gets the wave, right?, but when its closing out and your comming from either end who gets to smack that lip????

Damn those inconsiderate surfers who only wish they could do what we do.......

Sail somewhere else.

If you've ever surfed with windsurfers around they're a pain in the arse, want every wave and get onto them too easy. F*** if you've been sitting on the peak waiting for a good set and your chance to get one amongst the pack and someone on a sailboard expects right of way I'd probably say the same.

Yes I am a windsurfer and love wavesailing.

Laws of physics. If you did collide, who'd come out best off?

That person has right of way

wanda been worse than i can ever remember this year in regards to surfers attitude.
generally if im on the wave first Ill stick to my guns (if they are dropping in), not run into them but bottom turn around them ect. Generally theyll stop doing it. The easiest thing to do is pick a bank where there arent surfers, when a couple start to paddle out dont give them any slack and they normally paddle up or down to where the other surfers are. easiest that way.
the thing I find most amusing is that most of the attitude is on days when the surf is pretty average, why bother.

I'll preface this with a little story.

So here I am sailing by myself, a few swimmers about 300m away, a nice NE'r and about 400m of beach. I'm getting some really nice waves, it's not huge but there are some shoulder high sets, good fun. About 30 minutes into my session a lone surfer arrives. He paddles into the break about 60m from where I am. I have stayed in the same spot the whole time. He starts slowly but surely paddling up to where I am because he can see I'm getting some nice waves (not really a function of where I was, there were other good spots). I keep riding waves and a few times he tries to paddle onto waves i'm already riding, and fails. Not because I got in his way, he was just a crap surfer.

Now as I head back out the next time he quips to me "Plenty of other spots on the beach". Firstly i'm shocked, then in a slightly bemused tone I quip back "yeah I know" and keep going. I figure to myself, I've been here for a while, haven't moved, it's only me and him why should I relocate. Over the next 10 minutes he tries and fails a few more times to catch waves that i'm riding. I must stress I was not intentionally getting in his way, a few times I got out of his way.

This obviously pisses him off as he yells out "mate, f@#k off down the beach". I just calmly said "mate i've been, in the same spot all arvo, why don't you?" He yells back "better watch yourself mate or you'll be crawling to the carpark". Now this dude was like 50 years old, fat and an all around douche so I just kept sailing, totally bemused.

About 5 minutes later he leaves but I was really pissed off with being threatened with physical violence. So I came in put my gear on the beach and went to my car. I could see he was getting changed in the carpark so I got my mobile out, walked around in front of his car (maybe 10m in front) and started taking pictures of his car/numberplate/him. This obviously scared the living **** out of the dude because i've never seen anyone in such a hurry to packup/leave. I've seen this particular person a number of times since and has never come anywhere near me since. I figured if someone's going to threaten me like that i'm going to gather some evidence in case it happens.

/end story



I consider myself a pretty easy going person but the attitude of the surfers this summer in the Gong sounds like those at Wanda, absolutely pathetic. I'd hate to even think of the number of times this year that i've been dropped in on...it's ridiculous. I always try and sail where there aren't that many surfers, often getting worse waves because of this but the problem is as soon as you get a couple of nice waves....and wavesailing looks far more impressive than surfing, they all paddle up to where you are. Then they give you **** when they drop in on you, in a location you had specifically selected so you wouldn't get in their way.

Sure, we have a massive advantage because we can catch a wave waaaaay before they can but honestly I don't think it gives them the right to just drop in. I've often though to myself "am I snaking them in some sense" but I always conclude, no, because I'm not 'taking' that many waves and am always courteous. As Dan said it's usually worst when it's like 2ft surf.

The other thing that really gets to me is when they surf locations that aren't really that good for them 'because they can'. There is a reef break in the Gong that works really well maybe 5 times a year, it needs a particular combination of tide, wind and swell which is pretty rare. Now you can guarantee that when it's on some dickhead and his mates will be trying to surf it. They can't really catch the wave because it's too fast and full for them. When you come out and start smashing lips because you have the power to actually ride the wave, they start abusing you. Yeah sure mate, if you had even successfully ridden a wave in the 30min I've been here I might give you some credit

I go out of my way to give surfers leeway but to this day I've never seen the favor returned. I won't intentionally get in their way but my attitude now is, if they drop in on me i'm no longer pulling off the back.


/end rant/long random story

At most spots in the west, when the wind comes in the surfers go home. Why's this not happening at your spots?

Another thing I've noticed this year
is that alot of these surfers with the attitude
can't actually surf that well, and a few have
actually been beginners ( one or two yes max)
Personally I give respect where it's due, regardless of
What board you riding. It's a shame alot of the tools
seem to purchase an attitude the same time they
purchase their first surfboard.

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dan berry said...

Another thing I've noticed this year
is that alot of these surfers with the attitude
can't actually surf that well, and a few have
actually been beginners ( one or two yes max)
Personally I give respect where it's due, regardless of
What board you riding. It's a shame alot of the tools
seem to purchase an attitude the same time they
purchase their first surfboard.

Unfortunately it goes both ways as well - theres a few tools that barge out into peaks with their wave gear while crew are surfing. respect where respect is earnt not demanded

most surfers don't understand windsurfing - and don't give a **** about it and will be possesive of anywhere they surf - like flys to ointment they will go to where ever they see someone getting a good wave - if your getting good waves they'll probably come join you and expect you to play by their rules. not saying its right or wrong - just a fact

After sailing Wanda at xmas time I am surprised you can ever get a wave to yourself at any time during summer - there were sooo many people everywhere trying not to drown on their pink boogie boards and softee surfboards in a backwashed 1-1/2 ft rippy mess on a 20knt ne'r -

I do play by their rules, if I take of at the peak
and on the wave first, it's mine and viseversa
my main issue is with the units that take off on a wave
I'm already 2 turns into then proceed to run their
mouth off saying I'm f$&king up their wave
WTF. Especially when they're riding an esky lid
or learning to surf.
I know what you mean about Xmas though that
Was ridiculous

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dan berry said...

I do play by their rules, if I take of at the peak
and on the wave first, it's mine and viseversa
my main issue is with the units that take off on a wave
I'm already 2 turns into then proceed to run their
mouth off saying I'm f$&king up their wave
WTF. Especially when they're riding an esky lid
or learning to surf.
I know what you mean about Xmas though that
Was ridiculous

I agree with you totally- especially when they drop in and go for the straight hander and fall off in front of you - must say there's a few wave sailors that are happy to snake you as well - gybe on the inside of you when you've been ridng the wave from outside the peak - thats another thing thats pretty annoying and they always think they've got right of way

I think the problem with surfers (and probably windsurfer too) is that there are xxx types:

1) The local surfer who thinks they own every wave regardless
2) The local surfer with some of his buddies in the water who think they own every wave simply because they out number you
3) The traveling European windsurfer, especially from France or Italy, who doesn't seem to have a clue about wave sailing rules whatsoever. (A bit like trying to play pool with them).
4) The beginner to intermediate surfer who has heard all the jargon and therefore thinks mouthing off is part of the sport. Usually these individuals can be identified by the fact that they usually take of on a wave mid section and generally speaking will "ride" the wave straight onto the beach.

What baffles me most is that when you get proper down the line conditions you can usually share a wave between two sailors (which I think is fun) yet that's when people get most aggressive.

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Leech said...

At most spots in the west, when the wind comes in the surfers go home. Why's this not happening at your spots?

Average wind strengths on the east coast to west coast is way different !
Sailing in marginal 12 - 18 knots is pretty common on the east coast.

Or put another way, talking to a few crew last week, most common sized sail used in WA (Perth Metro) this year has been 4.5m... east coast it has been 5.4 - 6.2m (Based on riders above the 85kg mark)

Sad fact is surfing attracts alot of Kooks and it pisses me OFF!!!!!!
The worse conditions are for surfing the worse it becomes [}:)]

We often whinge about kitting but I think its way less of a hassle for me.

Its weird when guys in the lineup are stoked and saying f##k yeah and then 10mins later you have some fat old kook dropin in saying f##k off....

WTF

I find this topic to be quite amusing because I have surfed for a few years and have only windsurfed for 5-6 years.
I call it the surfer mentality. I had it too. Surfing Scarborough in a seabreeze and seeing what we called 'wind w4nkers' get waves. I wasnt interested and I wasnt impressed by what they were doing. I was just keen to get a wave on my shortboard.
Now that I dont surf much anymore but I can at least put myself in the surfers position. I know how they feel and it delights me to know how to p155 them off hehehe.
It doesnt happen at all where I normally windsurf but Leech and I encounted 3 surfers out at our local. It was big and light winds. Difficult to windsurf as the wind was more onshore than usual but it was doable. Now these surfers were ticked that we turned up. We could tell by the death stares and the general vibe. We both waved and smiled and both got no response. I picked up some decent bomb sets to their dislike but who cares because I sail there (and sometimes surf) and I wasnt going to change the way I sailed to suit them. Although a couple of times I did want to bottom turn but found that the spot where I was gonna hit would have been right on a collision coarse with the surfers. So hey it was my call to make sure that we were going to be safe and not end up in an awful mess.
Thats my thoughts anyway.
Thanks for reading

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stehsegler said...

I think the problem with surfers (and probably windsurfer too) is that there are xxx types:

...
3) The traveling European windsurfer, especially from France or Italy, who doesn't seem to have a clue about wave sailing rules whatsoever. (A bit like trying to play pool with them).
...

I agree Italians are hopeless.

hey... only saying that the last couple of times I went to Gnaraloo the most loopy people always seem to have been either French or Italian...

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WindWarrior said...

Average wind strengths on the east coast to west coast is way different !
Sailing in marginal 12 - 18 knots is pretty common on the east coast.

Or put another way, talking to a few crew last week, most common sized sail used in WA (Perth Metro) this year has been 4.5m... east coast it has been 5.4 - 6.2m (Based on riders above the 85kg mark)

hey dude ... you are alive ???

SO, judging by the responses, i'm not the only one to experience these tools..... and I'm right in saying he who gets the wave first lays claim to it and the last lip smack....

In saying that, I'll still be bailing no doubt so I don't collect these tools with my gear and end up injuring them or worse breaking some part of my rig.....

It is wierd though, that these tools only seem to come out with their comments and attitude when the surf is little and light to say the least....

When the surf and wind is up, there's no angst anymore its just survival skills and hardcore surfing, mind you the numbers of surfers is reduce by 90% and its only those who KNOW how to surf that are out, and its those that don't seem to mind and share the waves without too much love loss....

There have always been issues with surfers at Wanda but in years gone by there were a lot more good poleboarders on the water and they would all sail the same peak and exclude the surfers from that bank. This doesn't happen so much any more and the pole boarders seem to spread out over a few banks. The main problem is that Sydney is a big city and there are always kooks or desperado's gagging to surf a blown out piece of crud.

Wanda is a pretty unique set up because we can only sail north of the Wanda clubby flags which doesn't allow us any room to pick an unused bank.

In reply to the original question though, it sounds like you need to use some ascertive communication. Yell out to someone in a friendly manner that lets them know they are going to be in your way. Surfers do it to each other and it does not have to be aggressive.

There are a lot of gumbys in general in the water at Wanda. I sail and kite there and I have had more issues with poleys, kiters and surfers this summer than ever before. While on the topic someone mentioned in this thread how 2 sailors can share a wave. That is only true if you either tag onto the wave upwind and let the rightful owner ride it as they see fit, or the person is a good enough mate and you don't mind pissing them off a little for your own amusement.

Windsurfers and kiters need to show a little more consideration for the fact that we are riding at the beach in order to catch waves. That means if you are heading back out don't ride out through the peak, go down wind into the channel or turn back to the beach if there are people coming in on sets. Sometimes you have to inconvenience yourself a little so as we all can get better wave quality. There is nothing more irritating then coming in on a wave and having someone struggling in the impact zone that doesn't need to be there.

If you think about it the general theme of this thread applies to just about everything in life - mostly your in the right and everyone else is a tool - the supermarket, on the road, in the Emergency department - but if they're ya mates (or bigger than you) you just put up with it.

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Brien said...
Windsurfers and kiters need to show a little more consideration for the fact that we are riding at the beach in order to catch waves. That means if you are heading back out don't ride out through the peak, go down wind into the channel or turn back to the beach if there are people coming in on sets. Sometimes you have to inconvenience yourself a little so as we all can get better wave quality. There is nothing more irritating then coming in on a wave and having someone struggling in the impact zone that doesn't need to be there.

While I don't having anything against kiters per se I wouldn't mind having the zone north from the flags up to Green Hills banned for kiting all together. Now before you start flaming me hear me out first:

1) There are a number of kiters who in the past have not given a rats about the area right in front of the surf club which a couple of summers back nearly ended up in a ban for all Windsports at Wanda. On the other hand I have not seen a single windsurfer not respecting the flagged area unless they got washed into the area after a wipe out. I believe it was only down to the fact that the good folks at the NSW Wavesailing Association had a meeting with the club that averted this situation.

2) I believe there used to be a rule whereby every kiter has to leave 1 1/2 line lengths for safety to anyone down wind. Having seen firsthand what damage a fully loaded set of lines can do to a human body I think that's a pretty fair call. Given how small the impact area at Wanda is on most days I wonder if there is enough space to warrant enough safety for people kiting.


Also, general wave rules are usually as follows:

1) Anyone on they way out (surfer, windsurfer, swimmer etc.) ALWAYS has the right of way. No arguments!

2) Multiple people sailing in: who ever is closest to the breaking section of a wave has right of way, however if someone started riding the wave out the back they have the right of way.

3) Be nice to other people in the water and let them a wave every ones in a while even if it was yours to begin with

4) NEVER drop-in on anyone over the back of a wave (unless it's you mate... but then none of the above rules apply anyway )

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CJW said...


I could see he was getting changed in the carpark so I got my mobile out, walked around in front of his car (maybe 10m in front) and started taking pictures of his car/numberplate/him.

For the last time, stop filming old guys getting changed in the carpark!

must be a gong thing

I retrospect that does seem like poor phrasing hahah.

Seen the forecast for Sunday qwerty could be the goods? If it's not working in the Gong maybe Spot W might be the go given the lack of swell.

Sunday is the day for sure. One of the spots will be on.

Steslgesher,
Please don't start talking about bans, I really don't think the council will discriminate between kiters and sailboarders if they were to impose one. I think it is best to leave that topic alone on public forums. Kite lines really are no worse a threat than a sailboard rig, a 12ft mal, a clubby ski, a clubby paddle board, a clubby jet ski, a clubby row boat or seeing a clubby in their budgie smugglers. I would rather get a slice than a whack on the head from any of the things I just mentioned.

Anyway, whats that got to do with not intentionally sailing/kiting back out through the peak where others are trying to ride in?? It doesn't matter what is pulling you along, it is just about consideration for others.

In regards to who has right of way when you are sailin/kiting down the line and a surfer is approaching from oppisite direction,if the surfer can surf and knows what he is doing i think its best to let the surfer have the right of way.If its some useless clown that is just bobing around wasting waves who should go somewhere less crowded to learn, then i would shout like im on the inside section surfing to let them know its my wave and im heading there way.

The last thing we want is incidents to give the public,surfclub and council reasons to propose restrictions and worst of all bans on saling wanda.Windsurfers have sailed here as far back as the early to mid 80s that i can remember and more recent years kiters, without incdents.

There is alot of beach to sail north of the flags and usually a few banks to choose from. There is no need to sail/kite a bank that is full of surfers or right next to the flags.This summer has been quite busy with alot of idiots whe decide that it looks like a great place to swim or learn to surf between a dozen or more sailors and kiters.

Also i think if surfers paddle out on a break that is already full of sailors and kiters then they know what they are paddling out into and need to keep their mouths shut or surf another break.

How do you get access to the far northern part of Wanda - there was hundreds of 4 wheelies there at xmas time and the water looke empty - being NSW I suppose you'd have to buy a thousand dollar limited permit which are impossible to get hold of

looked nice and cross of down that end and stuff all crew in the water - wind looked cleaner too

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Brien said...

I would rather get a slice than a whack on the head from any of the things I just mentioned.

You might be about the only one then. If it's the potential for out and out carnage you can not deny in any way shape or form that a kite wins that competition hands down. I see a couple of out of control kites + riders per year, the results are never pretty. To this day i've never seen a windsurfer drag someone from water across beach/dunes to carpark.

Sorry to take the thread a touch off topic but honestly windsurfers aren't the ones that draw the attention of councils and the like because incidents between windsurfers and the general public are rare. I do agree with you though that if kiting gets banned, windsurfing would probably be tarred with the same brush.

Edit: I should note I have nothing against kiting, I sail with mostly kiters at my local break and we all have a ball. I just don't agree that a windsurfers is as great a risk to the general public as a kite is/can be. Which seemed to be what you implied, I have had interpreted that wrongly.