I recently tried the fast rocker wave board of a custom board maker. I liked everything about the board except the initiation of the bottom turn. It just felt a bit stiff. What would be the impact on performance if I asked for a slight increase in the V at the tail. If this is done progressively more towards the tail it would result in more tail kick on the rails than on the center line. I'm guessing this would help the board roll onto the rail more naturally at the start of the bottom turn?

Any other tips or tricks to keep the early planing of a board but help the initiation of turns.

???
So you want a custom fast wave board but you want to slow it down??

I'm no expert in board shaping but in my experience boards that feel stiff when entering a bottom turn are ones with the wide point too far forward. Maybe move it back and get a pinch more tail kick

So single or multi fin? Increasing toe in of side fins will increase manoeuvrability, but slow it down.
Yes more tail "V" will also make it looser, but could also slow it down.
Rocker is always a compromise between speed and manoeuvrability, but wave boards should never be flat, they need to fit into the wave. A straight board on a wave is the same as a negative rocker board on flat water.

Are you wave riding in the straps? if so loosening the back strap so you can get you foot more over the rail will allow you to turn harder.
If you can't handle a loose back strap, try taking back foot out of strap and place on the rail in your bottom turn.

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philn said..
I recently tried the fast rocker wave board of a custom board maker. I liked everything about the board except the initiation of the bottom turn. It just felt a bit stiff. What would be the impact on performance if I asked for a slight increase in the V at the tail. If this is done progressively more towards the tail it would result in more tail kick on the rails than on the center line. I'm guessing this would help the board roll onto the rail more naturally at the start of the bottom turn?

Any other tips or tricks to keep the early planing of a board but help the initiation of turns.

In theory yes you would increase the rail rocker. When you say initiating, do you mean at the top of the wave just starting to go down the face is a bit stiff? I have found with a fast rocker line the stiffness is after coming down the face to go back up the face the board can't do a small arc instead it does a big wide drawn out turn usually to far out in front of the wave.
Maybe thin the tail rails, soften the bottom tuck or increase the bottom rail tuck to help the rail dig into the water more easily.
Tips for early planing would be.
Go wider up front, increase the volume, reduce the boards weight and flatten/reduce nose kick AKA the water entry point.
Increase your overall fin area.

Try moving your mast base back a bit. This will shorten the rail line and lift the nose.

Which conditions is it stiff in? DTL?

It may sound silly, have you tried slowing down before you turn?

Fast rocker wave boards have a habit of being quick and accelerating quickly too. The faster you are going the more difficult it will be to turn as there will be more pressure under the board resisting the turn.

Try stalling at the top of the wave and go with the speed of the wave, rather than screaming down the face at mach 10.

Just a thought.

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LeeD said..
???
So you want a custom fast wave board but you want to slow it down??

No, I just want to improve the initiation of the DTL bottom turn. I feel like I'm forcing the bottom turn rather than flowing naturally into the bottom turn.

Board feels really good in the top turns, with lots of projection off the lip for aerials, tons of grip on an open face to throws buckets of spray and nice pop off the white water for super late hits.

Coming from a surfing background, the flow of the ride moving naturally from top turn to bottom turn to top turn matters to me.

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decrepit said..
So single or multi fin? Increasing toe in of side fins will increase manoeuvrability, but slow it down.
Yes more tail "V" will also make it looser, but could also slow it down.
Rocker is always a compromise between speed and manoeuvrability, but wave boards should never be flat, they need to fit into the wave. A straight board on a wave is the same as a negative rocker board on flat water.

Are you wave riding in the straps? if so loosening the back strap so you can get you foot more over the rail will allow you to turn harder.
If you can't handle a loose back strap, try taking back foot out of strap and place on the rail in your bottom turn.

It's a 5 box board. Was really stiff as a thruster. Using the same side fins (10.5 cm) and switching to 15 cm quad rears really transformed the board. But the initiation of the bottom turn was still not as natural as I want.

I already ride with my straps really loose.

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R1DER said..

In theory yes you would increase the rail rocker. When you say initiating, do you mean at the top of the wave just starting to go down the face is a bit stiff? I have found with a fast rocker line the stiffness is after coming down the face to go back up the face the board can't do a small arc instead it does a big wide drawn out turn usually to far out in front of the wave.
Maybe thin the tail rails, soften the bottom tuck or increase the bottom rail tuck to help the rail dig into the water more easily.
Tips for early planing would be.
Go wider up front, increase the volume, reduce the boards weight and flatten/reduce nose kick AKA the water entry point.
Increase your overall fin area.

Yes, I think you nailed it. I'm almost always riding weak waves in cross onshore conditions so I've developed a habit of always hanging at the top of the wave waiting for the downwind section to steepen enough to hit, and then use the drop down to the trough to generate the speed to carry me back up to the lip. I don't initiate the bottom turn till I hit or about to hit the trough. It is at that point that the board feels stiff. My bottom turn is very much a front foot bottom turn with lots of mast foot pressure. I did notice that when I was underpowered / slogging on the way out then on the wave the bottom turn was better.

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Overner said..
Which conditions is it stiff in? DTL?

It may sound silly, have you tried slowing down before you turn?

Fast rocker wave boards have a habit of being quick and accelerating quickly too. The faster you are going the more difficult it will be to turn as there will be more pressure under the board resisting the turn.

Try stalling at the top of the wave and go with the speed of the wave, rather than screaming down the face at mach 10.

Just a thought.

Yes, I did notice that when slogging on the way out the bottom turn was easier. Normally I sail cross onshore, but I got to try this board (a friends board) in true cross shore conditions. Probably meant sail had more power than I am used to.

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philn said..

R1DER said..

In theory yes you would increase the rail rocker. When you say initiating, do you mean at the top of the wave just starting to go down the face is a bit stiff? I have found with a fast rocker line the stiffness is after coming down the face to go back up the face the board can't do a small arc instead it does a big wide drawn out turn usually to far out in front of the wave.
Maybe thin the tail rails, soften the bottom tuck or increase the bottom rail tuck to help the rail dig into the water more easily.
Tips for early planing would be.
Go wider up front, increase the volume, reduce the boards weight and flatten/reduce nose kick AKA the water entry point.
Increase your overall fin area.

Yes, I think you nailed it. I'm almost always riding weak waves in cross onshore conditions so I've developed a habit of always hanging at the top of the wave waiting for the downwind section to steepen enough to hit, and then use the drop down to the trough to generate the speed to carry me back up to the lip. I don't initiate the bottom turn till I hit or about to hit the trough. It is at that point that the board feels stiff. My bottom turn is very much a front foot bottom turn with lots of mast foot pressure. I did notice that when I was underpowered / slogging on the way out then on the wave the bottom turn was better.

I found boards with parallel outlines & a kink in the outline just in front of the back foot can be stiffer for front footed turn initiation, while be very loose for back footed rider because they are using the kink in the rail as a pivot. But, when you try to quickly engage the whole rail off the front foot, you are engaging the straightest part of the rail which tends to stick... it may be that this shape does not fit your turning style or you may have to learn to initiate the turn a bit more back footed... Also as mentioned fin set-up can dramatically influence turn initiation


Just a thought...

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philn said..

Overner said..
Which conditions is it stiff in? DTL?

It may sound silly, have you tried slowing down before you turn?

Fast rocker wave boards have a habit of being quick and accelerating quickly too. The faster you are going the more difficult it will be to turn as there will be more pressure under the board resisting the turn.

Try stalling at the top of the wave and go with the speed of the wave, rather than screaming down the face at mach 10.

Just a thought.

Yes, I did notice that when slogging on the way out the bottom turn was easier. Normally I sail cross onshore, but I got to try this board (a friends board) in true cross shore conditions. Probably meant sail had more power than I am used to.

Ah that sounds almost exactly like a friend of mine. I built him a fast wave board. Not freewave flat, but not a banana either - based on the Goya Quad rocker. He loves it in side on where he is looking to find any speed he can. Loves it in the air. But had a nightmare first time he took it out in chunky DTL. He had too much speed and kept bouncing out in chop. While a more rockered board helps tighten turns, it biggest asset is providing control.

The shaper for Simmer boards (Ola Helenius) has said many times the rocker Kai Katchadorian uses on his Jaws / Peahi board is the same as the Simmer Freewave boards. So don't panic about the rocker.

I can only recommend what worked for my friend, which is going at the wave's speed, not the speed you can generate with the sail. Either that, or stop trying to do tight turns and boost massive airs! You have the speed!!!!

Either way spend some time getting to know the board better. I think if you are trying to scrap a bit of speed off it is better than having to work really hard to generate it.

FSW for onshore or offshore wind.
Wave for sideshore wind.

Sort the front fins out .... that will help ...

I was also going to suggest quad setup. Those front fins are too big..... go to a high aspect 8 or 9cm fronts and see
But yes if that and mast base positioning doesn't work, a little more vee almost certainly would

For me front fin toe and asymmetry are very noticeable in the bottom turn in side/side-on.

Sorry I'm no shaper, it'll depend of the rest of the shape. My starboard quad is a mono concave quite simple with lots of tail quick. Yet it initiates turns nicely.

Are you saying that the current behavior is true out of all types of waves? Or does it require excessive commitment to get it to engage a rail? Your weight + dimensions of board please?

A fast wave board would feel a bit slippery when heading down a steep wave requiring better timing to initiate turn.

A pure wave board is normally turnable at any point of any wave. That's what I like but it's more technical to set off (need to be higher off on the wave and light on feet to get momentum when it's either light wind or mushy waves).

Move the current rear fin forward, or a smaller or flexier fin. And if there is a more rear footstrap screw , try that.

Interesting question. Here's a list of thoughts, which I've mostly written for myself.

1) There are so many elements to board shape that we can't always pinpoint one solution to a speed or turning issue. The design has to work together as a whole. That means the board rocker line, tail kick, plan shape, vee, concaves, and rail shape all have to work in harmony with each other.

2) You've then got the fins, fin area and fin layout, and you've also got footstrap and mast foot positioning. When you combine 1) with 2) you have an infinite number of settings and board shape variables. This makes getting advice on the internet almost impossible.

3) The third thing is the sailor - and his typical sailing conditions and local wind strengths. The sailor has a body weight which makes one volume board do one thing, whereas a heavier or lighter sailor would probably get a different performance from the same board. And, once on our chosen gear, we all have different abilities, whether that's for early planing or speed or in driving off the back foot in a hook turn etc.

4) The fourth thing when you try a new board is that you start with your existing stance, muscle memory, and sailing habits - and a different shape board might require a different stance to turn it. So, one outing on a new board is not enough to learn its strengths and its negatives. This is like when you buy a new pair of trainers - they can often feel a bit uncomfortable on the first run.

5) With the above in mind, you can't change the shape of a board you've bought, but you can start a tuning process. There are some general principles to follow: On a wave board you generally turn better with the mast foot further back and the fins set further forwards. You can make the board looser in the turn by reducing fin size and by shifting the back fin closer to the front fins. If the board is then too loose or spins out too easily then try shifting the front footstrap further forwards, bring your mast foot back touch and lower the boom. If, after all the above, the board still feels a bit stiff when initiating a bottom turn - and you're confident it's not your body weight and knee position at fault - then perhaps try a bit more toe in for the front fins.

I jumped on a super fast rockered custom last year , I wasn't purchasing , shaper just wanted random feedback .... Front fins was crucial in getting it to work ... Tectonic fronts worked amazing when little else did - They have toe at base that reduces as it goes up the foil (like the witchies) .... BUT , I sailed the board a bunch of times (with loads of diff fin configs ) , and my feedback was I felt the rails tuck could be softened and extended more towards the tail ( the shapers original brief was insanely efficient rocker AND rails) ... so the shaper shaved off some edge that night (were talking a few mm of extra tuck !) and gave it back - and the result was night and day ! ...

With the harder edged / less tucked rails I would have given it a 6.5 , with softer tuck it was like a 9 .... My overall feeling was the rocker was predominantly providing the mobility - and providing way enough to soften the rails and EXTEND its rail initiation capabilities ... With the fast rocker and slightly more tucked rail I felt I could get even more speed out of the bottom turn as you could initiate aggressively with no catching / straightening / or rail glitches ... With the sharper rail it was niggly , and that niggle would cause you to go at 90% just to get through that phase ... OR , you would feel a slight pinch / drag at a certain angle in the bottom turn when you really start pressuring the rail - and feel the board lose a fraction of speed ...

So , you could ask for a fraction more tuck extending back closer to the tail ???? .... and DON'T use anything except toe'd ( and canted?) fins ... Straight fins will just 'fight' with the straighter rail rocker ...

Fast rockers are well worth taking the time to get to work , combined with say a winger , the straightness thru the stance and tail will throw lots of spray .... the mobility is great etc .... The 'slight' tradeoff is it sailing a fraction more mechanically , ie less 'flowey' through the angles - but that didnt bother me .... I would set up a little more clew first'y into my topturn , then just enjoy the drive and pivot off the top ... a flatter tail enables you to push really hard off the top ... which I like ... (ie EARN your turns)

A winger would also help 'break' the waterline in turns ... Wingers can definately add some forgiveness in its turn initiation ...

Ditto Basher on having to sail a board lots of times to get a true picture of capabilities ....

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Mark _australia said..
I was also going to suggest quad setup. Those front fins are too big..... go to a high aspect 8 or 9cm fronts and see
But yes if that and mast base positioning doesn't work, a little more vee almost certainly would

What he said .... re smaller front fins ... Me personally - like the feel / idea of levering up the rocker a bit with tri - fin set-up .... Quads could drop the waterline / rail a bit more and make it even more niggly ...

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seabreezer said.. and DON'T use anything except toe'd ( and canted?) fins ... Straight fins will just 'fight' with the straighter rail rocker ...

Not true ..... a vee with no concave will have water travelling at an angle at the area around the fins, whereas little to no Vee and heavy double concave will have a much straighter flow.
You can't make generalisations about fin toe in without seeing that bottom

To clarify ...when I said straighter rail rocker , I meant vs rail rocker on a more rockered board ... (not vs central spine rocker)

Yes - there will be differences in bottom shapes and effects rail rocker ... BUT .... yr theory re flow different on different underwater bottoms is pure theory and imo flawed in reality (on water testing ) - .... Ive seen equal benefits with Toe'd fins on single concaves , singles with doubles inside , big doubles on big v panel , light v bottoms ... etc etc ... So I don't agree .... NO board / underwater shape with a tapered outline is going to be funnelling flow straight out the back / sides without ANY DEFLECTION ... so therefore 'some ' toe always works imo ... be it 1 deg , or 3.5 ... and Im not talking straight line speed ... Were out there to RIDE WAVES , so Im talking in respect to turn initiation , going rail to rail , topturn style , ability to adjust arc etc ...

The only times Ive not liked TOE , is in shapes (regardless of underwater bottom shape) . is boards with a wide hip or kink between the straps ... think starboard quads back in the day 2013-2016 (S/c bottom - sometimes v out ) , and a board like rrd cult v5 with 60 cm kink in outline (double on v panel) ... The Toed fins still worked (bottom turn entry wise) , but I didnt like the 'over-turning ' feeling in the topturn , like the toed fronts were making it too easy to turn with that kink / wider outline hip ... ie not enough drive / hold off the top .... so straight fronts helped draw out the turns a little ...... EVERYTHING ELSE IVE EVER SAILED WORKS BETTER WITH TOED FRONTS ....

Last year , I sailed 27+ different shapes ... anything I write is based on trying lots of different boards and lots of fin set-ups ... and having some long time staples in my quiver that have been tweaked endlessly over the years to get to current (ripping , 10/10 ) set-ups ... so If I make a generalisation - there's alot of 'tweaking' in good conditions behind it (ie full speed side/ side off showing up problems VERY QUICK ) - and maybe show things up that slower bottom turn speed side on conditions won't ...

Not wanting to go down ANOTHER toe alley way , and staying simplistic/ getting back on track ...

A winger might help ....
some toe'd fins might help ...
smaller fronts will help ...
A fraction more tuck going further back will help ...
And playing around with back fin positioning (stonesurf) will help ...
As well as trying different size backs (thruster and quad) ... and shape ! .... uprights / swept back etc (swept back rear worked best in the fast rockered custom I tried - a fin I didnt like in all my other boards ! - felt great in this fast rocker , swept with a bit more tip area )
and if none of that works .... playing around with yr technique ... learning what the board 'likes' - which is the biggest benefit of mixing board styles up - forces you to adapt / try new things ...

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philn said..
I recently tried the fast rocker wave board of a custom board maker. I liked everything about the board except the initiation of the bottom turn. It just felt a bit stiff. What would be the impact on performance if I asked for a slight increase in the V at the tail. If this is done progressively more towards the tail it would result in more tail kick on the rails than on the center line. I'm guessing this would help the board roll onto the rail more naturally at the start of the bottom turn?

Any other tips or tricks to keep the early planing of a board but help the initiation of turns.

There is not gonna be a definite answer since which shape changes that will have the desired effects depends on the shape. The v-flow change you suggest would not be my guess through, since that sort of change will generally influence the late part of the bottom turn rather than the initiation. If it is a v-based board, bottom turn initiation can be influenced by the v-flow up front though. With some type of v-flows you can get the effect that when you set the front rail, the board kind of rolls onto rail. But there are also many ways in which a board can feel stiff and in the end it depends you your turning style too. For example, sometimes a bit more center/rear fin drive helps (if it is board that tend to drive too much rail into the turn and feels sluggish because of that... more fin drive drives the nose up and then makes the board feel quicker into the turn). Other times adjustments of the rail flow works, with a thicker rail up front that will "hold up" front when you set the rail and effectively shorten the water line of the board. Personally I only run asymmetric surf style front fins in all my boards and either center (thruster) or twin (quad) rear set. With such setups, I fine the bottom turn entry with toe in and splay of my front fins. Another personal thing is that I prefer my mast foot to be super close to my front foot. The shorter this distance is, the more quick and precise you can be with your sail handling which means you can push a board harder if you have the technique. My personal customs are quite short, so a bit special in that sense. But rockers range from pretty fast (ala SImmer FLy and Cortex) to super curvy (far, far curvier than anything on the market). Bottom turn initiation is one of the areas which are the least influenced by the rocker difference. But then, of course, when I design fast rockered boards, I try to make sure that outline and other things are adjusted to keep the board turny enough.

Been a while since I made my last wind surf board, it's kite boards these days, but dynamics still apply.
Rocker, Rails, Width, in that order will give the board it's character.
You can mess around all your life, you think to have found the perfect board, jump on something else and it's all changed.
If you can't plane you want something flatter, if it won't turn more rocker.
Whereas a tail kick is good for not much, progressive is better, narrow out the board in the last 30 - 40cm only.
But then I'm talking for 85- 95 kgs.
All different to an extent for those skinny little dudes