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forceten said..
Nice work on the charts.
i think still, that weight esp smaller sails and rigs is overrated . On a 7m and sails that require a 460 mast, it's more pronounced. The weight savings in grams, of point something doesn't excite me.

i find this interesting , a DaKIne Primo footstrap weight dry is 170 grams, wet 232gr.difference of 62.
3 straps 186grams/ 6.561 oz. considering their are straps, like some harnesses that absorbed near none

not to mention a cheeseburger

I disagree. Especially when you consider "all-up" rig weight. It's relative to the conditions you are using the gear in. I see a lot of people on older wave gear with Alloy booms & 60% carbon masts. So if you take a 95kg guy with a 3.7 wave sail from say 7-8 years ago with a 60% carbon mast & Alloy boom he is sailing that thing in 40mph winds maybe couple times a year & he is probably happy with it. Take the same rig his 55kg wife is using in 20-25 pretty often & she would be sooo much better off on lighter gear. I would bet that my 3.7 KS3 with 340 Superlite mast & RDG carbon boom weighs 1/2 what the other rig weighed. For her the difference in handling in "average" conditions would be huge. I have sailed my friends heavier older Ezzy 4.2 with alloy boom & heavy mast back to back with my 4.3 KS3 .... it is really shocking how much difference it makes. I mean I gagged a little just thinking about it..

I think in anything under 5m full planing conditions then the weight difference is less of a difference to your sailing experience.
A good carbon boom with a good clamp fitting makes a better conection to the rig and therefore transfers the power in a better way.

Sailing in light wind wave conditions I recon the rig weight makes a huge difference.

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forceten said..
Nice work on the charts.
i think still, that weight esp smaller sails and rigs is overrated . On a 7m and sails that require a 460 mast, it's more pronounced. The weight savings in grams, of point something doesn't excite me.

i find this interesting , a DaKIne Primo footstrap weight dry is 170 grams, wet 232gr.difference of 62.
3 straps 186grams/ 6.561 oz. considering their are straps, like some harnesses that absorbed near none

not to mention a cheeseburger

weight matters.

what is the first question that gets asked to anyone looking for new gear. "what do you weigh"

why do you think course racing has weight divisions.

that aside no matter what size sail or how much wind, you feel how nimble the rig is everytime you do anything that involves the rig. ie. gybe, jump, tack, uphaul, waterstart, getting into straps, early planing. you dont need to be hardcore.

the only downside is light can mean less strength although it looks like a few manufactures are trying very hard to overcome that.

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Madge said..
I think in anything under 5m full planing conditions then the weight difference is less of a difference to your sailing experience.
A good carbon boom with a good clamp fitting makes a better conection to the rig and therefore transfers the power in a better way.

Sailing in light wind wave conditions I recon the rig weight makes a huge difference.

one of my mates whos a lightweight. only really sails on 5.6m and under and prefers 4.8 and under recently swapped to thr enigma boom.

he said the weight difference was instantly noticable and wished he had done it earlier. hes also running the duotone masts that weigh next to nothing..

i guess the whole reason this thread started is because ezzy marketting was making false claims.

seems they must think weight matters too.

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Gestalt said..

Madge said..
I think in anything under 5m full planing conditions then the weight difference is less of a difference to your sailing experience.
A good carbon boom with a good clamp fitting makes a better conection to the rig and therefore transfers the power in a better way.

Sailing in light wind wave conditions I recon the rig weight makes a huge difference.

one of my mates whos a lightweight. only really sails on 5.6m and under and prefers 4.8 and under recently swapped to thr enigma boom.

he said the weight difference was instantly noticable and wished he had done it earlier. hes also running the duotone masts that weigh next to nothing..

What sails does he use?

The chart shows light weight to extremely light , Ezzy Taka vs Severne Blade to be 11.6 ounces, 328.8 grams.
The day I fuss over 12 ounces, has yet to come.
I never said weight doesn't matter, I said it not the primary concern to me. I don't feel the lightest mast over one that is say 95 % carbon is worth the money difference, weight and performance aside.

Once you reach the Senior Discount age,and your body complains in capital letters, less weight is sweet.
budget on retirement takes on new meaning .

of course several of you disagree.

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Faff said..

Gestalt said..

Madge said..
I think in anything under 5m full planing conditions then the weight difference is less of a difference to your sailing experience.
A good carbon boom with a good clamp fitting makes a better conection to the rig and therefore transfers the power in a better way.

Sailing in light wind wave conditions I recon the rig weight makes a huge difference.

one of my mates whos a lightweight. only really sails on 5.6m and under and prefers 4.8 and under recently swapped to thr enigma boom.

he said the weight difference was instantly noticable and wished he had done it earlier. hes also running the duotone masts that weigh next to nothing..

What sails does he use?

currently s1. blades before that.

i think old school north wave sails before that.

For me it's all about gear progression!!!! And I love what they are working on!!! The ultra light (expensive) waves sails of today, will be the affordable sails of" tomorrow" (with the benefit of having sorted out the durability issues). And the cycle continues #Happy Days

Again, I totally agree that light weight alone ins't everything. And for me it's a combination of getting something that fits my budget, has good durability and is "light weight" (by today's standards) - AND MOST IMPORTANTLY FEELS GOOD IN THE HANDS AND ON THE WATER!!!

For most of us... if you have gear that is less than 3 or 4 years old, you probably already have the benefit of gear fitting somewhere on the chart, or very near to making it on. We are reaping the benefits of the pioneers that have gone before us and that progression will continue to impact all levels of sails that come out now and in the future.

I can tell you there is a massive difference in weight and feel between the old gear I had 5 or 6 years ago and the current gear I'm on.

I've gotta say, It's a pretty good time to be a windsurfer - gear is so much more user friendly now

well said. my gear is at the heavier end of the chart too but its miles ahead to what it was.

Several years back board companies were in a light weight mode, one in particular .
lots of broken sticks.

carbon battens , decrease weight, at a $$ cost.

When you try a membrane Sail you dont go back. They are lighter stronger and have extreme stability compared to monofilm sails. And they retain their shape, monofilm sails deforms over time, that's why a new monofilm sail feels why better then your old one. The only downside is the membrane isn't good at handling point loads like a head or a knee, because it can't deform. So where a monofilm sail will get a dent, the membrane will get a hole, but it will not rip like a hole in monofilm because of the fibres.

I have been on a avanti for over year now, both waves and racing sails, I'm really happy with them.

Nobody has made a monofilm wave sail in about 20 years.

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Kasper79 said..
When you try a membrane Sail you dont go back. They are lighter stronger and have extreme stability compared to monofilm sails. And they retain their shape, monofilm sails deforms over time, that's why a new monofilm sail feels why better then your old one. The only downside is the membrane isn't good at handling point loads like a head or a knee, because it can't deform. So where a monofilm sail will get a dent, the membrane will get a hole, but it will not rip like a hole in monofilm because of the fibres.

I have been on a avanti for over year now, both waves and racing sails, I'm really happy with them.

Word! I have Avanti Echos for bay bump and jump sailing. I had Blades and Freeks before. After using Echos, Blades felt too spongy, Freeks too stiff. Echos feel powerful, very direct, yet forgiving. They are insanely light as well. I'm probably imagining this, but they seem to absorb less water as well.

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Faff said..

Kasper79 said..
When you try a membrane Sail you dont go back. They are lighter stronger and have extreme stability compared to monofilm sails. And they retain their shape, monofilm sails deforms over time, that's why a new monofilm sail feels why better then your old one. The only downside is the membrane isn't good at handling point loads like a head or a knee, because it can't deform. So where a monofilm sail will get a dent, the membrane will get a hole, but it will not rip like a hole in monofilm because of the fibres.

I have been on a avanti for over year now, both waves and racing sails, I'm really happy with them.

Word! I have Avanti Echos for bay bump and jump sailing. I had Blades and Freeks before. After using Echos, Blades felt too spongy, Freeks too stiff. Echos feel powerful, very direct, yet forgiving. They are insanely light as well. I'm probably imagining this, but they seem to absorb less water as well.

First I've even seen about sails absorbing water
is seem to a absorb less water, a category in actual tests?

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forceten said..

Faff said..

Kasper79 said..
When you try a membrane Sail you dont go back. They are lighter stronger and have extreme stability compared to monofilm sails. And they retain their shape, monofilm sails deforms over time, that's why a new monofilm sail feels why better then your old one. The only downside is the membrane isn't good at handling point loads like a head or a knee, because it can't deform. So where a monofilm sail will get a dent, the membrane will get a hole, but it will not rip like a hole in monofilm because of the fibres.

I have been on a avanti for over year now, both waves and racing sails, I'm really happy with them.

Word! I have Avanti Echos for bay bump and jump sailing. I had Blades and Freeks before. After using Echos, Blades felt too spongy, Freeks too stiff. Echos feel powerful, very direct, yet forgiving. They are insanely light as well. I'm probably imagining this, but they seem to absorb less water as well.

First I've even seen about sails absorbing water
is seem to a absorb less water, a category in actual tests?

One thing's for sure - my hair is drier these days.

Absorb less water ? - I would say so .... generally the broadseaming of membrane sails means way less seams to get soggy with water ... It always amazes me how quick my severne membranes dry after getting out the water .... like bone dry by the time you get them back to the car ... with the only damp bit left being the luff tube ...

Lighter rigs REALLY come into their own for guys who are throwing alot of moves regularly , like freestylers every 50 yards , or in wavesailing throwing lots of wave tricks etc .... If your sailing is more set and blast , with a bit of normal waveriding - benefits of membrane are less noticeable .... When your 'hoiking' the rig back and forth into and out of rotations - then every less gram helps ALOT ...

Some post dry and wet weight of these .

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forceten said..
Some post dry and wet weight of these .

Who have u seen that also post wet weights??? That would be pretty interesting. I've only ever seen what I have presume to be dry weight.

Yes, you need to weight them yourself

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bigdaz said..

forceten said..
Some post dry and wet weight of these .

Who have u seen that also post wet weights??? That would be pretty interesting. I've only ever seen what I have presume to be dry weight.

Crappy spell check, this should have said SO post some dry and wet weight.

someone mentioned that Ezzy was deceptive on wights, I weighted a Ezzy Taka 3, (the newer ones are even less Weight)
at 2.99 this compares to the Ezzy quoted weight on 2.88kg, a difference of .11
a sail is tricky to weigh, the difference being about 4% , is less than what boards vary from quoted.

2 very light sails I weighted were a Naish Chopper, 4.3 and a HSM KS spider both at 2.72kg.

When sailing you don't actually hold the sail nor boom up, like holding over your head, the weight becomes less an influence . Unless you count carrying the unit to the water.
it's far more important to have the mast and sail coordinated to optimize performance than fuss over grams.
the boom presents a slightly different picture, in that ease of use , longevity, esp since it's carbon, and price come heavily (intended) into selection

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forceten said..

bigdaz said..

forceten said..
Some post dry and wet weight of these .

Who have u seen that also post wet weights??? That would be pretty interesting. I've only ever seen what I have presume to be dry weight.

Crappy spell check, this should have said SO post some dry and wet weight.

someone mentioned that Ezzy was deceptive on wights, I weighted a Ezzy Taka 3, (the newer ones are even less Weight)
at 2.99 this compares to the Ezzy quoted weight on 2.88kg, a difference of .11
a sail is tricky to weigh, the difference being about 4% , is less than what boards vary from quoted.

2 very light sails I weighted were a Naish Chopper, 4.3 and a HSM KS spider both at 2.72kg.

When sailing you don't actually hold the sail nor boom up, like holding over your head, the weight becomes less an influence . Unless you count carrying the unit to the water.
it's far more important to have the mast and sail coordinated to optimize performance than fuss over grams.
the boom presents a slightly different picture, in that ease of use , longevity, esp since it's carbon, and price come heavily (intended) into selection

Rig weight matters in transitions. You can argue that a light rig will simply let one get away with crap technique, but many will never get good technique because they simply don't sail enough. They are happy to blast back and forth and mostly stay dry. And a light rig helps with waterstarts and uphauls. IMO, beginners should have the lightest rig possible. You must've forgotten how hard it all was in the beginning.

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Faff said..

forceten said..

bigdaz said..

forceten said..
Some post dry and wet weight of these .

Who have u seen that also post wet weights??? That would be pretty interesting. I've only ever seen what I have presume to be dry weight.

Crappy spell check, this should have said SO post some dry and wet weight.

someone mentioned that Ezzy was deceptive on wights, I weighted a Ezzy Taka 3, (the newer ones are even less Weight)
at 2.99 this compares to the Ezzy quoted weight on 2.88kg, a difference of .11
a sail is tricky to weigh, the difference being about 4% , is less than what boards vary from quoted.

2 very light sails I weighted were a Naish Chopper, 4.3 and a HSM KS spider both at 2.72kg.

When sailing you don't actually hold the sail nor boom up, like holding over your head, the weight becomes less an influence . Unless you count carrying the unit to the water.
it's far more important to have the mast and sail coordinated to optimize performance than fuss over grams.
the boom presents a slightly different picture, in that ease of use , longevity, esp since it's carbon, and price come heavily (intended) into selection

Rig weight matters in transitions. You can argue that a light rig will simply let one get away with crap technique, but many will never get good technique because they simply don't sail enough. They are happy to blast back and forth and mostly stay dry. And a light rig helps with waterstarts and uphauls. IMO, beginners should have the lightest rig possible. You must've forgotten how hard it all was in the beginning.

Not forgotten anything. When you are older, the lighter weight is even more important.
once again , a sail that weights 1 pound or .454 kg or 453.5 grams, is not a prerequisite for me.
Once again my customs are less than the lightest in the same size.i would not consider any boom nor mast solely on weight. A SDM in 100% could be lighter than a RDM, esp a 460cm and above.

Rig weight matters in transitions, yes, the sail itself matters even more, try a HSM Superfreak sometime , Magic.

All sails are membranes. Marketing word vandalism ... meh.

This is an interesting thread. I've been curious about the durability of those "membranes" sails, particularly wrt UV damage. Still none the wiser.

Can you add 2020 KA Kamikaze 5.3......3.14. I will get a 4.7 weighed.

Thanks

And weighed my 2020 KA Killer 5 batten at 3.18...will try to get a Kamikaze 4.7 weighed.

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mr love said..
And weighed my 2020 KA Killer 5 batten at 3.18...will try to get a Kamikaze 4.7 weighed.

Thanks for the info, but I wasn't so keen on adding individual sails into the mix - I really wanted to keep it to published weights in each sail size per model within the size range shown versus everyone weighing their own (too many variables.... granted there are also possible variables with published weights as someone has already mentioned, but that's what I have based the chart on for now) - maybe that could be another spreadsheet if someones else is keen to do it.

Anyway, it looks like the KA's are coming in nice and light (fitting right in the middle of the chart) so that's cool to see. Cheers

Ezzys may not be ''one of the lightest'',but they are definitely one of the strongest. You can't have it both ways I'm afraid and unless you are a sponsored sailor or a rich man, your wave sail needs to be strong.
So for me I will stick with Ezzys and try not to loose too much sleep over a few grams.

Totally agree in the Ezzy durability!, awesome sails ??

Ezzy are not the more direct feel, I agree in Side-Off, slightly powered, smooth face, 4.7 down the line...some sails are funnier to sail and more lively. However (I own a taka 3 and Elite 2019), in hard condition, gusty wind...bumpy face waves...it is a trusty sails that will be stable, will accept gust without trowing you too much over the handle bar, when I rent gear and condition are hard, I always swap for the ezzy. I prefer for example a Combat or an IQ in down the line perfect condition than my Elite/taka, but not when it gets unconformable. For a large windrange and conditions, hard to beat . Too much buzz over weight I thing, under 5.0, alu boom or 85% carbon vs 100%...unless you are a world tour rider I doubt you notice a difference. One thing however, Ezzy got a super big range for downhaul and outhaul, you could literally change the way the sail feels with those settings and more powerfull doesn,t mean more lively...so Found your setting and play with the outhaul more is my advice. Full sail feels heavy