Help! When bottom turning, I quite often get the rail buried too much and grind to a halt then fall onto my sail then crash out.. I try to keep heaps of front foot pressure to keep the speed up but it doesn't seem to work. Am I just carving too hard? Anyone got ideas? Cheers

bend the knees more and point them into the centre of the turn. i'm assuming your sailing cross-on conditions so keep the clew up high while using downward pressure on the boom while making a clew first attack at the wave.
make sense?? otherwise get a copy of the dvd winner to wave sailor.

Are you spinning out as you bottom turn?

That was something that I was doing a fair bit of when I started...

I can't remember what solved it, I think it's something to do with where the sail is positioned. Perhaps try moving it more forwards as you bottom turn? Or just pretend to do a gybe onto the bottom of the wave?

I'm sure you'll get it sorted soon, anyway

It depends on what conditions you are sailing in.

However here are some things to watch out for...

Over sheeting as you move into your bottom turn. I notice many beginners over - sheet during the initial phases of their bottom turn (back hand pulled in too tight for too long due to incorrect arm tension and body stance), this combined with poor rail technique puts the wrong pressure on the rail at the wrong time (slowing the board down and catching the rail) - this can often result in a rail that grabs and trips the board up. The sail should be pumped (back hand pulls in boom) once to generate speed and then released sensitively through the turn while keeping the appropriate amount of power for drive (as to not kill the sail - which happens when you over-sheet) providing enough power for the boards rail to do the work on the wave (something beginners don't do).

Beginning wave sailors - usually don't use the wave to generate speed and flow and then try forcing the rails (through the sail - as mentioned above) to do things at inappropriate places on the wave which ultimately ends in no speed, or rails that trip you up or very bad looking wave riding. Beginning wavesailors approach the wave in this way because they are used to using a sail to generate power and not a wave. If you concentrate on surfing the wave (and getting used to that for a while) at the expense of concentrating on sail positioning that may help. When you are wave sailing - 'surfing ability comes first - you use the sail to assist the board - so get the surfing aspect down first, then play around with using your sail to assist - in fact I highly recommend this approach.

I have surfed all my life and I still have to remind myself when I wave-sail to look at the wave through my surfing eyes (which is easy to do in places with power at gnaraloo etc) but once it gets fat or junky it is easy to try and use all the sails power to try to do things that can't be down because the wave and board position won't allow it. Surfing comes first - how the board works with the wave.

Be careful of pitting to much weight on front rail to far into your bottom turn . When you come of the bottom and are heading up the wave your weight starts to transfer smoothly on to the tail and then fully on to the tail to initiate your top turn. If you keep to much pressure on the rail past the bottom of your turn you will kill speed and tend to over sheet.

The bent knees was great advice - and make sure your foot straps are loose enough to allow full weight transfer to the inside (bottom turning) rail. This is really really important - if you can't get your feet right over the rail it will help contribute to the first and second points I mentioned (because you can't get the board powering onto the rail through your feet and leg's ability to SURF the wave) you will tend to try and use the sail to do your work and will lose speed or trip over the rail.

Good luck with the learning.

not spinning out .. it is mostly in the small slushy perth waves that I lose too much speed then the rail sinks in.. cross on conditions. I think it may be that I am trying to carve too hard and losing speed on small waves... probably need a wider turn on the small stuff... or find bigger waves.

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Perry Mardon said...

It depends on what conditions you are sailing in.

However here are some things to watch out for...

Over sheeting as you move into your bottom turn. I notice many beginners over - sheet during the initial phases of their bottom turn (back hand pulled in too tight for too long due to incorrect arm tension and body stance), this combined with poor rail technique puts the wrong pressure on the rail at the wrong time (slowing the board down and catching the rail) - this can often result in a rail that grabs and trips the board up. The sail should be pumped (back hand pulls in boom) once to generate speed and then released sensitively through the turn while keeping the appropriate amount of power for drive (as to not kill the sail - which happens when you over-sheet) providing enough power for the boards rail to do the work on the wave (something beginners don't do).

Beginning wave sailors - usually don't use the wave to generate speed and flow and then try forcing the rails (through the sail - as mentioned above) to do things at inappropriate places on the wave which ultimately ends in no speed, or rails that trip you up or very bad looking wave riding. Beginning wavesailors approach the wave in this way because they are used to using a sail to generate power and not a wave. If you concentrate on surfing the wave (and getting used to that for a while) at the expense of concentrating on sail positioning that may help. When you are wave sailing - 'surfing ability comes first - you use the sail to assist the board - so get the surfing aspect down first, then play around with using your sail to assist - in fact I highly recommend this approach.

I have surfed all my life and I still have to remind myself when I wave-sail to look at the wave through my surfing eyes (which is easy to do in places with power at gnaraloo etc) but once it gets fat or junky it is easy to try and use all the sails power to try to do things that can't be down because the wave and board position won't allow it. Surfing comes first - how the board works with the wave.

Be careful of pitting to much weight on front rail to far into your bottom turn . When you come of the bottom and are heading up the wave your weight starts to transfer smoothly on to the tail and then fully on to the tail to initiate your top turn. If you keep to much pressure on the rail past the bottom of your turn you will kill speed and tend to over sheet.

The bent knees was great advice - and make sure your foot straps are loose enough to allow full weight transfer to the inside (bottom turning) rail. This is really really important - if you can't get your feet right over the rail it will help contribute to the first and second points I mentioned (because you can't get the board powering onto the rail through your feet and leg's ability to SURF the wave) you will tend to try and use the sail to do your work and will lose speed or trip over the rail.

Good luck with the learning.

Great advice - thanks!

Cross on bottom turns - down the line?
Generate as much speed along the wave as you can - do a top turn and use that extra speed to carve tight so you stay with the wave (not bog down out the front) and can continue to slide down it. Commit to the turned inside out - clew first feeling. Look for white water or a section and crack the board back around! Enjoy!

try a bigger board,

forgiveness could be the key !

loosen your footstraps, you might not be getting your weight on to the other rail., the transfer of weight is through your feet and by leaning over the board also.

i'm certainly not qualified to give you any technique tips for wavesailing but can recommend the Peter Hart series Serious about Waves I & II. the first one covers down the line wave riding and second one looks at cross on technique.

For onshore Perth, Slim Jim's advice is spot on. To maintain power here you do need to really open up that sail clew 1st style as you go back up the slop. Putting pressure through the mast foot can help avoid that backwinded feeling, but every now and again it will go wrong and you'll end up having to bail. Perry's advice is really spot on for your more classic down the line conditions.

Bottom turns sound really easy because at 1st glance there doen't seem to be too much technical going on. This is wrong-they are really important, critical moves that set up your wave riding. This was really made clear to me some years ago when wave sailing in a winter northerly where everything was the 'wrong' way around. Being a natural footer I thought it would be easy, after all I've been bottom turning for years on my unnatural goofy foot side. Definitely not-I could hardly string a good one together, even though intellectually I knew exactly what to do. The bottom line is that they are harder than they look, and take practice to get right.

Cheers, Jens

Thanks everyone for all the great advice. I agree; it is a critical move that is often overlooked.

I found that my problem was that I was trying to carve the board by stepping hard on the rail, but not fully leaning into the carve and banking the sail. This kills your speed and control. My advice: commit fully to the turn, and the more speed you have coming down the face, the more you'll need to lean your body into the turn and bank the sail.

mast head preasure low center of gravity and be agresive and also the set up for the wave

"bringing your knees together" will allow a fluid transition as you really lean into your bottom turn- works really well especially if your more of a front foot driven sailor...

Not all boards and fins are created equal. Sounds like the board and fin are too stiff and your trying to jam it into a tight turn and then it's just stalling. What sort/size of board and fin are you using?

I've had the same problem with my bottoms turns.

I am a fairly experienced sailor, but rather new to wave sailing. I am likely to get 90% flat and large chop sailing and only about 10% in proper wave conditions. Question is can I practice the same technique on flat water by doing large 'S's or does it require a proper wave? I am also a very competent gyber but this doesn't seem to be translating well to wave riding if I keep my foot in the backstrap.

I'm keen to try all the excellent advice mentioned above, but if I have to wait for decent wave sailing conditions my practice time will be limited.

I tried to bottom turn once but it was too hard so now I just go down the line and do huge euro airs. It is heaps better than doing bottom turns.

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Leman said...

I've had the same problem with my bottoms turns.

I am a fairly experienced sailor, but rather new to wave sailing. I am likely to get 90% flat and large chop sailing and only about 10% in proper wave conditions. Question is can I practice the same technique on flat water by doing large 'S's or does it require a proper wave? I am also a very competent gyber but this doesn't seem to be translating well to wave riding if I keep my foot in the backstrap.

I'm keen to try all the excellent advice mentioned above, but if I have to wait for decent wave sailing conditions my practice time will be limited.

Hi Leman,

I reckon this is a tough one to practice without waves. I suspect that much of the skill in a well executed bottom turn is timing, and for that you really do need a wave....

Jens

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bucket said...

Help! When bottom turning, I quite often get the rail buried too much and grind to a halt then fall onto my sail then crash out.. I try to keep heaps of front foot pressure to keep the speed up but it doesn't seem to work. Am I just carving too hard? Anyone got ideas? Cheers

What kind of board you have? Some board need commitment and a lot of weight on the front foot, some board need a more pivot on the tail...if you bottom turn a JP freestyle Wave full front foot(apparently 2010 and 2011 are more wave did not test it)...you will dig the edge...and kind'a just go in straight line and loose speed for example. The board keep his speed more if you are more backfoot...

When you do a normal jibe, do you have to put all your weight fwd and rig to not loose speed or more central...that will tell you a lot about the way to initiate your bottom turn!
have a great one!

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NordRoi said...

bucket said...

Help! When bottom turning, I quite often get the rail buried too much and grind to a halt then fall onto my sail then crash out.. I try to keep heaps of front foot pressure to keep the speed up but it doesn't seem to work. Am I just carving too hard? Anyone got ideas? Cheers

What kind of board you have? Some board need commitment and a lot of weight on the front foot, some board need a more pivot on the tail...if you bottom turn a JP freestyle Wave full front foot(apparently 2010 and 2011 are more wave did not test it)...you will dig the edge...and kind'a just go in straight line and loose speed for example. The board keep his speed more if you are more backfoot...

When you do a normal jibe, do you have to put all your weight fwd and rig to not loose speed or more central...that will tell you a lot about the way to initiate your bottom turn!
have a great one!

90L OES XWave and 83L OES WavePro
don't have any trouble jibing the boards at all, they feel great - I do lean forward a lot but I wouldn't think that is unusual. I lean forward lot lot in the bottom turn also. I know what you are saying about a bit of back foot pressure.. I will try this. Thanks

Hmm good info Nord. I'm riding a 94 Acid and I do remember reading that it is for riders who ride from the front foot. I never knew until now exactly what they meant by that. Good stuff to keep in mind next time I'm on a wave.

My gybes are quite smooth but I definately tip the mast forward to catch the wind in my turn and weight the mast foot, to keep my power up. While in my bottom turns I am not used to carving with back foot in strap, so I'll have to try and weight the front foot more.

Get your front foot over the middle of the board as far as you can, move your mast track back a little. As you drop in move your grip on the boom back, especially the front hand.

Hello,

whatever board you have, or condition you sail in or how many kilos you weight, SPEED is the key, the faster you go right before carving the more you will be able to push harder on your toes. It gives you the possibility to get more rail on the water without being stuck and stoped during the bottom turn.

cheers

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roscopeaco said...

Get your front foot over the middle of the board as far as you can, move your mast track back a little. As you drop in move your grip on the boom back, especially the front hand.

Came to this conclusion as well by accident. I changed my footstraps and set them up what I thought was too loose. This allowed me to get my front foot in the middle of the board and for once use decent front foot pressure without catching the rails. Funnily enough I never discovered this extremely important but perhaps obvious point in any of my reading.

I am now making decent progress whenever I get a chance to wave sail and no longer sinking the tail, falling off the back of the wave and can now bottom turn dramatically sharper.

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Perry Mardon said...

It depends on what conditions you are sailing in.
(and then lots of great advice)

Great post...I make all of those mistakes. Just started SUP surfing and have found it helps wavesailing, but I must remember to surf more than sail on the wave.