I just sold my 125L Rocket as it's just too big for me now (waterstarting, in footstraps, but I've only started to carve into gybes). I have an 85L FSW for the stronger winds. I sail in Elwood and I'm 67 kg. What is a good 13-17 knots board for the bay? Seems like the bay has a lot of swell and chop regardless of wind, unless it's a northerly. I've been told that a BIG FSW like a Tabou 106L 3S is a better option than a small freeride like a Tabou Rocket 105. I am not so sure about that. What about those new Freemove boards like JP Magic Ride, Fanatic Gecko, Tabou Rocket Wide around the 105-110L mark? My biggest sail is a 6.7m, but the biggest I'm willing to go is 7.5.

I too sail at Elwood and I reckon at 13-17 knots it stays pretty flat at Elwood so a Freeride board like the Rocket or a slightly de-tuned Slalom board like the JP Super sport would work well if you are into blasting. I'm a bit heavier than you at 75 kg and I go with the 112 Supersport from 14 knots with a 7m freeride sail. The beauty about the Supersport that if the wind picks up to 20 I can still hang on and have a blast if I can't be bothered changing down a board size and sail size.

I also find that with the more upright fin on the freeride boards they can actually feel less harsh on the legs because they get a bit more lift than a FSW setup. But the disadvantage is if you are out on the rail with a big fin they are harder to control the flight in the air.

I have a 96 3s setup for bump & jump but I reckon they would work nicely with the straps outboard and a slalom fin if you went with the 106L and a 6.7

I haven't really had much experience with the new super wide boards, personally I don't like the idea of a wide board for a messed up bay but thats probably my old school thinking.

Elwood's a tough place to sail - it's very choppy, don't know why but it is. We don't call it Pookiipa for nothing.

I think at your level you should be looking for the easiest thing to sail that you can get going on, so be thinking carve/x-cite/whatever is easy,

takes big fins (avoid US box)

has 2 straps at the back but not right on the rail

a bit of rocker so it doesn't bury the nose into the oncoming chop.

You probably shouldn't have sold the 125

What they said...

If you are targeting 6.5 - 7.5 sail range, then your 125 is close to ideal - in that wind-range there isn't much chop, so something with a flatter rocker is often better than an FSW.

Then when the wind gets up, 6.0 downwards on you 85.

Thanks for the tips.

Well, I'm having seller's remorse right now, LOL.

Yeah, Elwood is choppy as hell (the part closer to Dawson street protected by the houses from the South is a bit better). Rockets's chop-eating reputation aside, I just think that the 125L is too big at my weight, and I persist with it even at 20 knots when I know I should be on the smaller board. So I sail back to the flat patch in front of Dawson, thinking "hey, I should try for a gybe now!", but I am hammered at the end of the run and just sail back to the beach to get a breather. I am kind of in the advanced beginner purgatory - need to be overpowered to get going (the chop and the swell don't help) and then struggling with the power when on the plane.

So my thinking is that a *wider*, lower volume freemove will give me earlier planing in flatter water (more time on water) and force me onto my smaller board after 17 knots.

I'm going to break it to you. Throwing money at gear won't teach you to gybe.

Spend the money on a couple of weeks in Geraldton/Lancelin and try and go with a mate who will give you a bit of coaching. Or hook up with some seabreezers who are over there.

You just need to get over the hump, and you can't do that at Elwood. It's just too hard. You need warm flat water, lots of wind and someone to video you and tell you what you're doing wrong, and you need to keep at it - short runs - no more than 200 meters or so. Every day (or at least most days) for a fortnight.

Once you've cracked it you'll never look back.

If you want to do Gero on the cheap I can point you in the right direction for cheap utes and gear hire etc...

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JonE said..
I'm going to break it to you. Throwing money at gear won't teach you to gybe.

Spend the money on a couple of weeks in Geraldton/Lancelin and try and go with a mate who will give you a bit of coaching. Or hook up with some seabreezers who are over there.

You just need to get over the hump, and you can't do that at Elwood. It's just too hard. You need warm flat water, lots of wind and someone to video you and tell you what you're doing wrong, and you need to keep at it - short runs - no more than 200 meters or so. Every day (or at least most days) for a fortnight.

Once you've cracked it you'll never look back.

If you want to do Gero on the cheap I can point you in the right direction for cheap utes and gear hire etc...

Somehow I knew you were gonna say that! I learned most of my windsurfing (waterstarts, planing in the harness and foot straps) on holidays with pretty flat water. The only thing I learned in Elwood is how to do the above but in chop and swell. It only took a season. Is Inverloch an option? PM me the Lancelin and Gero contacts. I appreciate your help.

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MrCranky said..

JonE said..
I'm going to break it to you. Throwing money at gear won't teach you to gybe.

Spend the money on a couple of weeks in Geraldton/Lancelin and try and go with a mate who will give you a bit of coaching. Or hook up with some seabreezers who are over there.

You just need to get over the hump, and you can't do that at Elwood. It's just too hard. You need warm flat water, lots of wind and someone to video you and tell you what you're doing wrong, and you need to keep at it - short runs - no more than 200 meters or so. Every day (or at least most days) for a fortnight.

Once you've cracked it you'll never look back.

If you want to do Gero on the cheap I can point you in the right direction for cheap utes and gear hire etc...

Somehow I knew you were gonna say that! I learned most of my windsurfing (waterstarts, planing in the harness and foot straps) on holidays with pretty flat water. The only thing I learned in Elwood is how to do the above but in chop and swell. It only took a season. Is Inverloch an option? PM me the Lancelin and Gero contacts. I appreciate your help.

I don't think its really necessary to travel to the other side of the country to learn to gybe!! Great if you can do it as JonE suggests but not really an option for most.
Some other options are get down to Inverloch or Sandy point on a 15 knot day and you will be able to concentrate on your gybing technique without worrying about to much chop as long as the tides line up.
Just remember all the hard work you have been doing at Elwood is helping in the long run.

Agree with Jman, Inverloch is a great place to learn to gybe! It's also reasonably shallow for the most part, so a quick step back onto the board and off for the next gybe.

yep - Invy or Sandy.

The easterlies at Sandy over summer, are quite easy to predict - and often very strong. Low tide, sail the east-bank. Higher tide, sail in the pond.

Watch this video. Sam ross has the best online tuition videos.

do a clinic with guy cribb. Or the aloha clinic in Maui with Matt Pritchard.

FSW boards are the best for the bay. About 95 to 100 l for your weight. But you wouldn't use over 6.5m sail because the fin isn't big enough. if you want to go really fast in light winds with a 7.5m sail you should consider a starboard futura. About 110l.

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Jman said..

I don't think its really necessary to travel to the other side of the country to learn to gybe!! Great if you can do it as JonE suggests but not really an option for most.
Some other options are get down to Inverloch or Sandy point on a 15 knot day and you will be able to concentrate on your gybing technique without worrying about to much chop as long as the tides line up.
Just remember all the hard work you have been doing at Elwood is helping in the long run.

Yeah the shore break in front of the sailing club alone is quite something. And when I first started getting further out I kind of expected flat water and smooth sailing, but instead I was greeted with big swell and more chop ("I am sailing in this?!"). On the flip side, I don't expect Elwood to ever become boring.

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ejmack said..
Agree with Jman, Inverloch is a great place to learn to gybe! It's also reasonably shallow for the most part, so a quick step back onto the board and off for the next gybe.

I am actually worried about it being too shallow. How busy is it? (I actually like to follow other people's tacks - surely they know what they are doing). Where to do I get the wind and tide forecasts?

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Yuppy said..
Watch this video. Sam ross has the best online tuition videos.

do a clinic with guy cribb. Or the aloha clinic in Maui with Matt Pritchard.

FSW boards are the best for the bay. About 95 to 100 l for your weight. But you wouldn't use over 6.5m sail because the fin isn't big enough. if you want to go really fast in light winds with a 7.5m sail you should consider a starboard futura. About 110l.

Thanks. I noticed the water is ridiculously flat in that video. I got an 85L FSW for the strong winds. I'm looking at a Futura 110L or one of the new free move boards (Atom IQ 100-110L, Rocket Wide 108L, etc) to replace my 125L Rocket. I just have trouble believing the new super wide boards will work in the Elwood chop.

Elwood is not that bad. If you want to avoid the chop, the best spot to launch is from the end of Dawsons street, head upwind and don't run right into the beach on your inside gybes.

Im 83kg and I sail a 105lt free wave with a 6.2m as my biggest kit...I can get this planning around 17-18kts as measured by the wind gauge at St Kilda / Faulkner Beacon. With your lighter weight, working the gusts you might get a 105 free wave down to 15kts. A wide big free ride may shave another 1-2 knots of that but it will definitely be easier to get planning in light winds (less pumping/working the gusts etc).

I would think a wide 105 lt free ride will be fine for your average Elwood sea breeze chop, and at your weight once it gets to 20 knts you can switch to your 85lt with a 5.7m. If you are worried, maybe try to demo a board from the Zu or SHQ.

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MrCranky said..

ejmack said..
Agree with Jman, Inverloch is a great place to learn to gybe! It's also reasonably shallow for the most part, so a quick step back onto the board and off for the next gybe.

I am actually worried about it being too shallow. How busy is it? (I actually like to follow other people's tacks - surely they know what they are doing). Where to do I get the wind and tide forecasts?

You have to be careful for sure. And during summer, on a good forecast it can be chaotic in the inlet. Mahers Landing (just down the road outside of Inverloch)works well on a easterly, and is less busy but you still need to watch those sandbars. I normally use the bom or meteye fore forecasts. S-SW or E is my preferred direction there. Not sure about the tides but I like the place with a bit more water in it anyway, due to the sandbars. It's a bit rougher but you will still find flat water to gybe in.

If your able to run a fin under 32cm then your reasonably safe if your careful. If you are on anything bigger and straighter, be very careful.

It's a great place to learn how to gybe, you just need to know the sandbars. Watch the guys there first and you'll be right.

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Roy said..
Elwood is not that bad. If you want to avoid the chop, the best spot to launch is from the end of Dawsons street, head upwind and don't run right into the beach on your inside gybes.

Im 83kg and I sail a 105lt free wave with a 6.2m as my biggest kit...I can get this planning around 17-18kts as measured by the wind gauge at St Kilda / Faulkner Beacon. With your lighter weight, working the gusts you might get a 105 free wave down to 15kts. A wide big free ride may shave another 1-2 knots of that but it will definitely be easier to get planning in light winds (less pumping/working the gusts etc).

I would think a wide 105 lt free ride will be fine for your average Elwood sea breeze chop, and at your weight once it gets to 20 knts you can switch to your 85lt with a 5.7m. If you are worried, maybe try to demo a board from the Zu or SHQ.

Thanks for the advice. I've been advised by a shop guy that a big 105 L FSW like a 106 3S is better for Elwood as the light wind board. But he's new to Melbourne ("man it's choppy here!"). I sail out of the Elwood Sailing Club. Most guys have small FSWs. So when it's 20 knots, everyone is there. When it's 15 knots, it's only me on my 125 Rocket and a couple of other guys on 100L+ slalom boards. Unsurprisingly we sail by far the most. There are also a couple of regulars launching from near the kiosk - they seem to be on slalom gear always.

I have only started making my way upwind to Dawson street, so I am not quite sure what people sail from there (but again, it's nowhere as busy when it's only 15-16 knots).

TBH, I feel like pursuing bigger and bigger gear (especially at my weight) is a game of diminishing returns. I've been told that going from a 7 m to an 8m sail gives like 1 knot earlier planing. I plan to sail in Elwood 99% of the time. It seems like when it's windy, it's 15-20 knots usually. 20+ does not happen that often and neither is 10 to 15 (if it's off, it's under 10). So I wonder if it's worth trying to squeeze every knot of earlier planing. But this is my perception after 1 season basically, so I could be wrong. Maybe 10-15 is more frequent that I think it is.

On the board front I'm looking at a 110L Futura. It's about the same width as the 125L Rocket - 69 cm. I heard it handles chop really well. But what concerns me about it is that most of the volume is under the straps and the mast, while the Rocket's volume is more evenly distributed. So at least I can tack the Rocket, while I'm not so sure about the Futura.

That's why I'm also looking at these new Freemove boards. A 110L AtomIQ is 75 cm wide, and the volume is distributed very evenly, so it should be easy to tack. There is a new one in tuffskin construction going cheap on seabreeze.

My other concern is the sails. The shop guys say I need nothing bigger than 6m at my weight. I have 4.2 NP Fly (flat down the line wave sail), 4.8 NP Fly 2 (flat down the line wave sail), 5.3 NP Firefly (flattish freestyle cross over sail), 6.1 NP Fusion (cross-over sail with a bit of draft, kinda like Severne Gator) and 6.7 NP Tempo ("entry level" free ride sail with mostly mono film).

The most fun I've had was with the 6.7 and 6.1. I've hardly used the 4.2 and 4.8. Even when the wind was up I find it very hard to get going with them. They feel really on and off. I used to think the same of the 5.3, but I have had better success with it the last time I used it. I probably had not used it in enough wind previously.
I've been thinking of replacing the 4.8 and 5.3 with 5.0 and 5.5 Fusions or power waves like NP Atlas. But I've been told that in smaller sail sizes, power waves make sense only for heavyweights and that my need for power will diminish as I get better. That I should be more active with the flatter sails when getting on the plane and they will feel better once going. I think there is a kernel of truth in this. I get on the plane seemingly much slower than pretty much everyone else, especially on my smaller board, but when I do the drafty sails feel overpowering. My first successful outing with my flattish 5.3 - I basically pumped, pumped, and boom I took off. And once going, I didn't feel so overpowered.

I am thinking of selling the 6.7 and replacing it with a 7m NP Ryde, since the gap is not big enough with my 6.1. Supposedly it goes really well with new-school wide free move boards. But then I've been told I need nothing bigger than my 6.1 at my weight and the need for power will diminish as I get better.

tldr; I wish I could do all of the above without spending any money.

Seems like you are a bit confused, my 2 cents worth, your sails are fine just get the board sorted. At your weight I don't think you will need a 7m once you start to learn to be more efficient. You are water starting so go 110 L max. All the boards you mention will be fine freemove, freeride, Fsw whatever, its going to depend on how much you want to spend though I would lean towards the freeride/freemove for early planing over the fsw. My biggest sail is a 7m on a 112 and I don't miss to many days and I'm 8kg heavier than you.

You are definitely over thinking this...Jman is right on the money.

Your sails are fine for the moment, just make sure you use the right mast and rig them right.

Regarding boards: your 85lt free wave will be great with the 4.2, 4.8 & 5.3 sails that you already have. If you go a 105 free wave, it will work well with your 5.3 and your 6.1 but while theoretically possible,the 6.7 will be pretty big on a FSW. However a 110 free move will carry the 6.7m better, but won't be as good with the 5.3. For me it just comes down to your personal preference (do you want the board slanted to high or low winds) either one will work fine.

As for locations, Dawson ave & around the kiosk have free parking so that one reason why these spots are popular

Yeah, I'm probably overthinking all this. I just like how my 6.1 Fusion feels, and maybe having the same sail across the wind range would make things more consistent. Also the Fusion rigs on a 430 from 4.5 to 6.5 (my 5.3 Firefly should go on a 400, but I don't have one and a rig it on my 430). The 7 Ryde also rigs on a 430. So I could cover the whole wind range with just one mast. But how alike would the same sail model feel at sizes several meters apart, I have no idea. Severne Gator is available from 3.7m to 8 m. Pretty sure the 8m sail feels nothing like the 3.7.

I found a great deal on a 2015 114 Futura (72 wide) and will probably just get that as my light wind board. So that is that. From now on I will only replace gear when it breaks.

Sorry to throw another spanner in works........but i would recommend the "free move" Atom or "free ride" Carve in the Starboard range rather than the "free race" Futura.

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Roy said..
Sorry to throw another spanner in works........but i would recommend the "free move" Atom or "free ride" Carve in the Starboard range rather than the "free race" Futura.

Thanks, just as I made up my mind... Well, there is a reasonably cheap 110L Atom IQ floating around. But it's a tuffskin construction, so it may be a bit heavy. (I am not sure the "tuffskin" actually does anything.)

Maybe I'm misreading the trends, but it appears to me that the freeride, freemove, freerace shapes are all converging to the same shape anyway - flat, thin and wide.

Why don't you go and buy this tonight, sail it every day for 2 months, do as many catapults as you want and chuck it in the skip when you're done....

www.seabreeze.com.au/Classifieds/Windsurfing-Boards/~to4z3/2002-F2-Ride-279-cm-116-litres.aspx?search=EjQ0DoWvNYhAy8mo2nnt4zFZHec8xW7w

Then when you're ready for it go and spend some decent money on exactly the right board.

Mr cranky I' m a light sailer as well weighing in at a massive 60 kgs and my set up for light days on the bay is a 6.4 North duke and a freestyle wave board 93 l .

i got rid of my 7.5 sai And 115 l rocket as it was never going to get used

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JonE said..
Why don't you go and buy this tonight, sail it every day for 2 months, do as many catapults as you want and chuck it in the skip when you're done....

www.seabreeze.com.au/Classifieds/Windsurfing-Boards/~to4z3/2002-F2-Ride-279-cm-116-litres.aspx?search=EjQ0DoWvNYhAy8mo2nnt4zFZHec8xW7w

Then when you're ready for it go and spend some decent money on exactly the right board.

Totally agree. I did this. Bought 110 from 2002, bashed it around for a year, got the feel for smaller board, then gave it away. Bought myself something nice then.

I use my older 103L F2 and love it i'm about your weight 65-67KG so i get away with a wide sail range. cuts chop awesome. its a bit long at 278 but goes well.

Ah I remember this phase of learning very well. You have a good day them a series of days when things just don't feel right, change sails, don't change sails, are my harness lines in the right place, maybe I need a different mast, or sail, or board.

Suggest you limit yourself to really three board/sail combinations at the most, and get used to the feel of that setup. One for your 17-22 knot days (most of what we get at Elwood); a smaller board for 23-26, then a small sail for the big days up 30 kts. Let's face it, there just aren't that many 28-35 kt days!

Focus on tuning of your sail, mast foot position and your stance - this and harness line position has a surprisingly large impact on the feel of the ride. Getting a sense of what's going with your weight, pointing your back toes, squaring up your hips and whether the rig feels heavy or light is a really important part of what you're learning at this stage IMHO.

Changing the board/sail just adds more variables to the mix!

Play around with small changes to your existing rig/board a few times rather than changing them and you'll start to notice what effect this has. I know we all want to be planing, but I also think there's value in feeling what your board does when it's off the plane, and the frustrating border zone in between on and off planing.

All of this time spent noticing this makes you instinctively aware of the huge amount going on between the rig, the board and you.

There are still plenty of days where I go out and my setup feels rubbish (like today!) but I now know what to tweak to improve it. And I'm now clearer about when it's rubbish because of the wind and when it's my setup/technique.

So make small not big changes, and spend lots of time actively noticing all the stuff that's going on.

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ejmack said..

MrCranky said..

ejmack said..
Agree with Jman, Inverloch is a great place to learn to gybe! It's also reasonably shallow for the most part, so a quick step back onto the board and off for the next gybe.

I am actually worried about it being too shallow. How busy is it? (I actually like to follow other people's tacks - surely they know what they are doing). Where to do I get the wind and tide forecasts?

You have to be careful for sure. And during summer, on a good forecast it can be chaotic in the inlet. Mahers Landing (just down the road outside of Inverloch)works well on a easterly, and is less busy but you still need to watch those sandbars. I normally use the bom or meteye fore forecasts. S-SW or E is my preferred direction there. Not sure about the tides but I like the place with a bit more water in it anyway, due to the sandbars. It's a bit rougher but you will still find flat water to gybe in.

If your able to run a fin under 32cm then your reasonably safe if your careful. If you are on anything bigger and straighter, be very careful.

It's a great place to learn how to gybe, you just need to know the sandbars. Watch the guys there first and you'll be right.

Definitely not too shallow down here at Invy. Bring the gear you have down here and you'll be gybing in no time.

At low tide all the sand bars are exposed so you can see them, at high tide you can sail over them, at mid tide you can tell by the water colour, so there's nothing to worry about. At Mahers (area 45) its a bit harder as the water isnt as clear, but still you can follow the channel markers.

As Evan said, use BOM Meteye for the forecasts, and the tides on Willy Weather are accurate enough.

There will be loads of people around from Boxing Day onwards. I tend to stay away from the Angling Club precinct for most of Jan - except for club events, and will sail from Pensioners point either out the entrance or over towards Point Smyth.

Thanks for the tips, everyone.

I ended up getting a 108L Tabou Rocket Wide. Doesn't seem to be any worse in the chop compared to my previous (non-wide) Rocket 125. Whereas the old Rocket would smash through the chop, this one "slips" over it when well powered up. A friend of mine, who's the same weight and rides a 110L slalom board in light winds, tried it out and said the same - "slippery". No trouble going upwind (stock fin is 34 cm vs 44 cm on the old one). Maybe it's just me slowly getting better, but I do seem to be spending a lot less time slogging on this board. Once on the plane, it just wants to keep going. (At this point, I should do the typical "it's so easy to gybe!" praise to further justify the spending, but, alas, I can't gybe. Being much thinner than my old board, it does sit lower on the water, so it's actually easier to waterstart.)

I also swapped my 4.8 Fly 2 and 5.3 Firefly for 5.5 and 4.9 Fusions. I just could not get used to the flatness of the Flys.

Water starting to turn around is getting old. I'm gonna head down to Inverloch over the break.

Do somehow get a copy of dashers 12-step jibe (there's a russian overdubbed version on youtube).

Couple of things helped me in the latter stages just before I cracked it (be warned, "cracking it" is not a permanent state - I just planed out of my first couple in about a year this week).

Have you tried doing kinda downwind 360's - i.e. do the first steps (look behind you, unhook, drop your weight, bend your knees) bear away at full pelt, sheet in like a gybe, let the rig bring you forward and carve round without flipping the rig - you'll just land head to wind gently with your hands on the boom. This should give you the confidence to sheet in hard and commit to letting your weight come forward and over, and get you used to carving round.

Then you need someone with a video camera to film you and comment - one is no good without the other - you don't just need to learn to gybe, you need to learn to self-diagnose.

And if all else fails, start gybing on the biggest wave you can find out the back at elwood - point ormond normally has some big swells. You can often gybe round and take your time while the wave is keeping you on the plane. It's a nice way to learn the process slowed down a bit.