After mucking around for 5 seasons I am resigned to beinf a slow learner.
But maybe the things we need to do are so subtle that we end up not knowing why we are doing them. So an expert is not necessarily a good instructor.
A case in point is the source Guy Cribb suddenly realising that he "did not look through the sail" when he gybed left, then recently mkade a big advance.
And another guru "4 seasons teaching longboarding" posted that
"I thought this might interest other beginners who are learning to step or carve jibe.
I had been leaning the sail to the inside, stepping over to start the carve, then very slowly sweeping the sail back to the outside as the board turned through the jibe.
Jibes seemed to be taking forever and falling apart.
I finally discovered that sweeping the sail back to the outside is what turns the board through the jibe.
Don't wait for the board to turn before sweeping the sail back to the outside.
Once the board is carving and turning, when you sweep the sail back to the outside, the board responds by continuing to turn through the jibe."

Is this all common knowledge ie "Everybody knows that" ?

I am unsure if I understand exactly what you're saying, but I think I get the gist.

I find I have two types of planing gybes based on how much wind I have. One seems to support what you're saying.

- If I am really powered up I really sheet in so my sail doesn't assist my turn at all, and I am going fast enough that the sail has no weight when I flip it. All the turn happens from my feet tipping the board.

- If I am just barely planning occassionally I can still come out of a gybe planning if I time it well. (This may be what you are talking about where the sail assists the turn). In these conditions I tend to sheet out more during the turn to keep power in the sail, and I flip the sail before I am fully around, then by grabbing the sail early on the new side I essentially create one big pump and turn the board the rest of the way. The flip itself does seem to assist the turn.

The first version doesn't turn with the sail at all, while the second one does a lot.

Just my technique, unsure if others do it similarly.

Yes you,re right Oldie i,ve never thought about it. Try looking back as you over sheet the sail and do the step and rig flip at the same time. See ya next time at Invy and i,ll have a look at what you,re doing.

Ta, appreciate input from the masters of a million gybes.
Every now and then the process is effortless and the sail floats up saying 'Take me , i'm yours'. And then it is back to hard labour..

Seems like every gybe is different and adjusting to that is the secret. At least I now know not to try a crash gybe with a big fin. It catches half way around and the launch sequence then reaches zero.

Flare gybes on the longboard are starting to come good, the book says they confuse the issue but how else to change direction?

i had to practice heaps of planing whilst "straight downwinding" to really figure out when and what the sail does during gybes.
you can actually execute 3/4 of a fast planing gybe without having to flick the sail.
i just kept hooning downwind , going left to right and back with wind behind me and the wind made the gybe/ sail flick timing apparent.
got to say i now have it sussed.
hooked in, fast powered up downwinding also helped me with board reactions.....bit of toe pressure here, board turns....bit of heel pressure there....board turns..
it definately helps to have a nice steady wind mind!!

By pulling the sail back in the gybe aren't you sort of laying it down a bit, so dumping speed?

I thought this was a high wind type of gybe to dump excess wind so you're not over powered in the gybe?

"By pulling the sail back in the gybe aren't you sort of laying it down a bit, so dumping speed?"
But if you then complete the gybe quicker, you are winning?
Back to a broad reach, where everything works properly.
The good books say to keep the mast sticking straight out of the board as you go around. ie the board tilts into the turn. And I see that happenning with classy gybes.
But maybe not a learner's rule.....

Of course, when you lay down the sail towards the middle of the turn it has got to come back forward pretty quick. Before the wind catches up with you again.

I meant "middle of the turn radius"
whatever

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NasiGoreng said...

i had to practice heaps of planing whilst "straight downwinding" to really figure out when and what the sail does during gybes.
you can actually execute 3/4 of a fast planing gybe without having to flick the sail.
i just kept hooning downwind , going left to right and back with wind behind me and the wind made the gybe/ sail flick timing apparent.
got to say i now have it sussed.
hooked in, fast powered up downwinding also helped me with board reactions.....bit of toe pressure here, board turns....bit of heel pressure there....board turns..
it definately helps to have a nice steady wind mind!!

Does sound like an intensive gybathon. Present wind speeds just reinforce my conclusion that bogging down while in "spinnaker" downwind mode makes it impossible to accelerate back to a plane because the full wind power is exerted then on the top of the sail. So this exercise is more "broad reach to broad reach" than "straight downwinding" ? ie keeping some "suck" working in the sail so the loose leech can work?
Guy Cribb does stress "throwing the sail forward" , but we see no such thing in Sailquik's flat high speed gybes.

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NasiGoreng said...

i had to practice heaps of planing whilst &x22s;straight downwinding&x22s; to really figure out when and what the sail does during gybes.
you can actually execute 3/4 of a fast planing gybe without having to flick the sail.
i just kept hooning downwind , going left to right and back with wind behind me and the wind made the gybe/ sail flick timing apparent.
got to say i now have it sussed.
hooked in, fast powered up downwinding also helped me with board reactions.....bit of toe pressure here, board turns....bit of heel pressure there....board turns..
it definately helps to have a nice steady wind mind!!

Nice work Nasi - how long you be sailing for?

So I am writing as I am thinking to clarify the idea in my mind...
As Nasi said "you can actually execute 3/4 of a fast planing gybe without having to flick the sail."
So the finish of the gybe is the critical moment. And the sail needs to be "wound up" to make this a strong move. So the chop doesnt throw you off and you don't end up straight downwind at mach 10?
The sail needs to come from outboard to help the rotation. Here is S. Bornhoff (http:/boards) at this point-

Kato said "Try looking back as you over sheet the sail and do the step and rig flip at the same time." which was very pertinent. And demonstrated how you can take the apparent wind to any direction that you like. Seems almost unfair to dawdlers...

Further to the sail swinging theme, I can't forget reading an internet reference to a special tack that someone saw happening.. Something like "This guy stepped across very early and did a sort of reverse laydown. He hardly came off the plane."

Hmm.. the bigger and heavier the sail the better it would work, to take the idea to it's logical (rubbish) conclusion. Anyway I will work on that and teach it to the grandkids too. Then they will really have some bad habits to unlearn...