I think this is worth repeating in a topic of its own (thanks Squid Lips)
(copied from www.unifiber.net/masts-selector):





Key questions are:

. why hard versus soft top - that is, is one better for some things than the other?
. how incompatible can you get before its really noticeable (that is, one square or ten out of sync on the unifiber diagram)?

Apologies for the cross posting if you have seen it already.

I recently got the 2012 Naish Forces after years on Ezzy.

I rigged the Forces on the Ezzy masts (about 4 years old) and found that the sails twisted off a lot at the head but the lower battens were quite over-rotated (ie not coming away from the mast enough). This was the case with the 5.3 on a 430 mast, the 4.7 on a 400, and the 4.2 on a 370 (all the recommended mast lengths). Looked pretty ugly and the lower battens were really hard to rotate. I haven't sailed them with these mast combos though.

I rigged the 4.7 and 4.2 on a Naish 100% 400 skinny and it rigged perfectly (as you'd expect) and they sail like a dream.

Then I tried the 5.3 on an Ezzy 400 bottom and 430 top with a bit of extension. That rigged a lot better than the 430 top / bottom. I use this combo on the 5.3 (saves me buying a new Naish 430)

Conclusion: there's definitely a difference, as least in how it rigs. I can't comment on how that might translate to sailing on the water, but my guess would be that the Naishes are designed for a 'hard top' mast, so they'd probably sail better with one.

You have some very innovative ideas Diggers, top marks for lateral thinking, I might try something similar......

where does my powerex rdm fit?

From memory your Powerex RDM would sit in about the same spot as the North RDM, but don't quote me on that !!!!!

Select to expand quote

mr love said...

From memory your Powerex RDM would sit in about the same spot as the North RDM, but don't quote me on that !!!!!

from my memory the powerex where the same as the ezzys which is more or less close enough to the north by this chart.

Select to expand quote

Diggers said...

I recently got the 2012 Naish Forces after years on Ezzy.


Then I tried the 5.3 on an Ezzy 400 bottom and 430 top with a bit of extension. That rigged a lot better than the 430 top / bottom. I use this combo on the 5.3 (saves me buying a new Naish 430)

Conclusion: there's definitely a difference, as least in how it rigs. I can't comment on how that might translate to sailing on the water, but my guess would be that the Naishes are designed for a 'hard top' mast, so they'd probably sail better with one.

Same thing here:
Wifey has 2008 4.0, 4.5 and 2010 5.0 Forces on Ezzy masts. The 5.0 feels nice on 400/400 Ezzy.

For the 4.5 and 4.0 I went with a shorter bottom mast than the top, and quite a bit of extension, and they definitely feel much softer and less twitchy. Also, the softer bottom part of the mast bends a little more, so that the lower battens rotate easier.

Markus

Select to expand quote

Cruiser1755 said...

where does my powerex rdm fit?

From my experience my Powerex 430 85% RDM is a bit more flex top than the Loft RDM.
Tried a Powerex 460 100% RDM in a 2011 7.8 North X-type and it was too soft in the top rigged a 7.4 2012 KA Koyote and it rigged very nicely.
So I would say more to the flex top side of constant curve like Simmer / XO

I had another brand new X6 400 RDM Pryde mast break last weekend and re rigged my 2012 5.4 mFly 2 on a spare 400 RDM Ezzy.
The difference between constant curve and flex top was incredible and instantly noticeable. The sails went from feeling light and perfectly balanced to heavy and back handed to the point of causing spin out problems. I'm guessing there was no where near enough flex at the top which is key to maintaining balance in a 4 batten sail.
IMO, don't under estimate the difference and try and get the mast your sails are designed on.

I always rigged my larger NP Searches (6.2 and 5.7) on the 430 Ezzy and thought they worked really well. But then I am a heavyweight looking for grunt so it all makes sense having a somewhat stiffer top than spec'ed, especially at the lighter wind end of the range.

I have just moved to a quiver of Loft Lips and the Ezzy's work fine with those too - but stands to reason, the mast flex is almost identical going by the above.

I see from another thread that Unifiber have a new 2012 mast curve diagram up.

See www.unifiber.net/masts-selector

Of much interest is the apparent softening in the mast flex of the 'sail du jour' (Severne).

I wonder if this is a reality or just showing up non-systematic error in the Unifiber measuring equipment?

They seem to be refining the chart. Ezzy masts have moved over slightly within the constant curve column.

I was about to ask the following in a new post, then i found this so decided to ask here.

In the buy and sell in Qld Sails, there are a couple of older model gaastra heat waves 4.7 and 5.2, I have a couple of older NP masts a ck35 460 and a c30 430 (was a 460 but cut it down) i think they have constant curve on them somewhere.

would these masts suit the gaastra sails?

thanks

Select to expand quote

lungs said...

I was about to ask the following in a new post, then i found this so decided to ask here.

In the buy and sell in Qld Sails, there are a couple of older model gaastra heat waves 4.7 and 5.2, I have a couple of older NP masts a ck35 460 and a c30 430 (was a 460 but cut it down) i think they have constant curve on them somewhere.

would these masts suit the gaastra sails?

thanks

don't take my word on it but Gaastra and Np are at either end of the spectrum so very incompatible i.e. Gaastra sails need Hard top masts, NP masts are extrememly Flex top. Same as a Maui Sails sail and an NP mast (or vice versa) - they should never be in the same room together

I believe the Heat wave was designed to be rigged on a mammoth tusk. Unfortunately mammoths have since become extinct.

---

I think that Unifiber graph is a crock. No way is a Tusshy mast a direct replacement for a Neilpryde mast in a Neilpryde sail..

To the laymen it might seem reasonable, but for the rest of us the fact that the graph suggests these masts are identical says we should take the rest of the 'data' with a pinch of salt.

I guess I have got to chime in and say I was using a Tushingham wave 430 (or something that sounds like that) on a 6m NP V8, and it rigged really well. Having said that, I didn't have a NP 430 to compare it against...

I imagine any manufacturer changes their masts' bend curves a little bit here and there. It might make it impossible to say one mast equals another, even within the same brand.

I don't know who to believe, this chart or the manufacturers own specifications.
For instance, Goya, Hot Sails and Ezzy all spec their masts at a 13 curve, slightly different overall stiffness but all the same 13 curve but on this Unifiber chart they are all different.
Bottom Top
Hot Sails 490 65% 78%
Goya RDM 64% 77%
Ezzy 490 63% 76%

Select to expand quote

FormulaNova said...

I guess I have got to chime in and say I was using a Tushingham wave 430 (or something that sounds like that) on a 6m NP V8, and it rigged really well. Having said that, I didn't have a NP 430 to compare it against...

Yeah pretty much the same here, (by rigging my sails on the 'compatible' brand), I've had my S-1s on 100% gaastras (bling bling) and they worked great, but I've also sailed the same sails on the recommended Redlines and they worked even greater.. After too many accidents I'm stuck using powerex, and, the sails work great!.. But still not as good as the times I sailed it on the Redline..

To really tell what's best (not just what works 'good' or 'fine') you must sail them back to back. This isn't always a luxury the average sailor has access to. Ergo, sometimes you just have to trust the people that built 'em. Not a great stretch 'cause we're already trusting them by handing over a huge wads of cash..

It's a nice chart, but I can't see how Unifibre, by using this crude chart can match the people who built the sail. Building masts must be a bit more complex than placing 3 dots on a line..

Select to expand quote

barn said...

Yeah pretty much the same here, (by rigging my sails on the 'compatible' brand), I've had my S-1s on 100% gaastras (bling bling) and they worked great, but I've also sailed the same sails on the recommended Redlines and they worked even greater.. After too many accidents I'm stuck using powerex, and, the sails work great!.. But still not as good as the times I sailed it on the Redline..

To really tell what's best (not just what works 'good' or 'fine') you must sail them back to back. This isn't always a luxury the average sailor has access to. Ergo, sometimes you just have to trust the people that built 'em. Not a great stretch 'cause we're already trusting them by handing over a huge wads of cash..

It's a nice chart, but I can't see how Unifibre, by using this crude chart can match the people who built the sail. Building masts must be a bit more complex than placing 3 dots on a line..

I guess then it comes down to if a sailor can afford to get the right mast and sails, probably their whole quiver, in order to have the right fit, or if they buy their stuff incrementally like I do.

I wish I could afford to buy it all new from scratch, but it just isn't going to happen, and I doubt I would notice the difference. I would be happy for a location that was consistent enough to even allow a good comparison!

So Barn, I guess you would be horrified by my use of Ezzy RDMs in KA Koncepts, and a few Pryde sails? (In fact I might try them in a North sail soon, just to see what they look like there too!).

Oh yeah, I now even use them in Ezzy Infinities too! (For what its worth the Infinities do rig a whole lot better on the Ezzy masts than they ever did on the Pryde/ART Speedstick/Tushingham mish mash I had/have )

I do wonder how much the curves vary though. I have had a sailmaker recut a sail or two to suit a mast, and its not like he takes more than a couple of measurements (one?), and he generally gets it right.

I imagine the reaction of a mast is different, but then that's going to vary based on carbon content anyway.

Select to expand quote

So Barn, I guess you would be horrified by my use of Ezzy RDMs in KA Koncepts, and a few Pryde sails? (In fact I might try them in a North sail soon, just to see what they look like there too!).

Actually this is the once case where mixing the brands results in an improvement!! The KA would dilute the EZZY content by 50%. (unless you believe in homeopathy)..

It is quite common to hear people say 'I rig X sail on Y mast and it works fine'. This is not a lie, all sails can catch wind and pull you around in some General Direction, no matter what mast they're matched with. It would be very rare to see somebody unable to control a sail 'cause it had the wrong mast.

My argument is that even if the sails 'work' on the 'wrong mast', chances are they'll 'work' 'better' on the 'factory' spec mast.

The gripe with the chart is that it matches Tusshy with Pryde, of course a Pryde would 'work' with a Tusshy, and vice versa, that's not my point.

I used to use a Gaastra Remedy that was rigged on a Maui Sails mast, and according to the Unifibre chart it should have rigged 'OK' because the 3 dots are kinda close. WRONG. This was the worst rigged sail in Africa.

I used this sail because I didn't want anybody else using it, but when others did sail it, some couldn't even tell the difference. They were either spazzez, or just having too much fun sailing to notice that the battens weren't even rotating.

Does this mean the guy who sailed for an hour without a noticing his dysfunctional RAF wouldn't have benefited from some rotation?

Apparently not, because if he can't notice the difference it doesn't matter?

If nobody agrees with me it's because my arguments are too subtle and sophisticated.

Select to expand quote

FormulaNova said...


I imagine the reaction of a mast is different, but then that's going to vary based on carbon content anyway.

The reaction is only dictated by stiffness and weight, A fibreglass and Carbon mast that weighed the same, and had identical stiffness would 'react', 'respond' or 'spring back' equally.

"I used to use a Gaastra Remedy that was rigged on a Maui Sails mast, and according to the Unifibre chart it should have rigged 'OK' because the 3 dots are kinda close. WRONG. This was the worst rigged sail in Africa. "

classic!

you may have coined a term here.

Probably still rigged better than the guy with two SDM top halves jammed together