I think the main reason to ditch measuring a hi tech downhaul tension measurer is that the best sailors will still rig their sails on looks on the beach and then they/we adjust on feel, tweaking tensions a bit having tried the rig on the water.

Plus the downhaul tension required actually does vary from mast to mast - because bend curves and stiffnesses do vary in manufacture, even where you think you are buying an identical product.
The first principle for all rig and board tuning is that it works for you, and not that it conforms to some tape measure setting or other measured load.

The other issue with a downhaul tensioner would be where to fit it.
It can't go between the extension and the sail without lifting the rig off the deck or without adding new weight to the rig.
You also can't simply measure the load on the downhaul line tail as you tug it - because that loads varies according to whether you are using a 1:4 purchase, or a 1:6 etc... There are then friction and other issues with all sail pulleys and with the various extensions we use.

So back to basics here.
Ditch the tape measurement systems and factory settings, and learn instead to rig your own sail with the mast and boom you have.
All the measurements given are just starting points anyway, and are there for an average sailor weight on a standardised mast. If you are heavier or lighter - or use a third party mast - then those measurements probably won't be right.

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Basher said..
I think the main reason to ditch measuring a hi tech downhaul tension measurer is that the best sailors will still rig their sails on looks on the beach and then they/we adjust on feel, tweaking tensions a bit having tried the rig on the water.

Plus the downhaul tension required actually does vary from mast to mast - because bend curves and stiffnesses do vary in manufacture, even where you think you are buying an identical product.
The first principle for all rig and board tuning is that it works for you, and not that it conforms to some tape measure setting or other measured load.

The other issue with a downhaul tensioner would be where to fit it.
It can't go between the extension and the sail without lifting the rig off the deck or without adding new weight to the rig.
You also can't simply measure the load on the downhaul line tail as you tug it - because that loads varies according to whether you are using a 1:4 purchase, or a 1:6 etc... There are then friction and other issues with all sail pulleys and with the various extensions we use.

So back to basics here.
Ditch the tape measurement systems and factory settings, and learn instead to rig your own sail with the mast and boom you have.
All the measurements given are just starting points anyway, and are there for an average sailor weight on a standardised mast. If you are heavier or lighter - or use a third party mast - then those measurements probably won't be right.

I know how to rig my sails

At the Ezzy factory they use a load tensioner when downhauling the sail and put a biro mark on the sail before setting the gauge to the correct place. The 5 Ezzy sails I have with the system I have checked the the downhaul gauge at the foot against the marks on the leech and all 5 were spot on, and still are when they got to 100 sessions. My preferred settings are always max downhaul and outhaul, or 1cm less outhaul if its a bit light. Or if the water is flat, add 1cm downhaul for top speed. The slight tweaks I came to were after I used the sail a few times, with a GPS.
So each time I rig the sails, its easy to get it spot on each time without looking at at marks on a flapping leech .
Before I got all Ezzy masts, I calibrated the gauge against the marks on the leach. I dont know why other brands dont do something similar. I think Duotone might on their Warps, I saw Pierre Mortefon on a windsurf.tv video using a hole in the luff tube at the bottom of the mast.

Many years ago some magazines tested Ezzy sails and rigged along the same lines as other brands, more downhaul and floppy leeches, not enough outhaul, then proceeded to mark them down. They were rigged wrong. Ezzy told magazines to stop testing his sails for a while, until they got the hang of them. Which is why its important for magazine testers and sailors to rig according to the specs. If the specs given are wrong, then thats a problem, and if they thing the specs are out contact the brand. That was a long time ago, 2005 +/- a few years?? Maybe Basher can comment, he was a tester briefly around that era.

If a brand decide one year to build their sail with less downhaul, tighter leach, how is the sailor supposed to know the desired settings? Buy a secondhand sail from a few years ago, can you remember what they said at the time? It might help if brands got the specs on a sail right, and sailors actually measure their extensions. It should be idiot proof, its not complicated.

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AUS 808 said..

PhilUK said..
Its why Ezzy sails have a tape measure on the tack strap and a gauge on the sail to line up level with the bottom of the mast.

Which is attached by Velcro & can be moved once the correct setting is established ??

It is attached. It has lines that indicate the settings to use for different wind strengths . It's set from the factory.
Its calibrated using a Ezzy mast. Using a different mast will alter , quite possibility the setting , velvro, move.brings new meaning tomYMMV.

I was indeed a test editor at Windsurf magazine for a while, but I only tested boards and not sails - because I also worked for a sailmaking company and so it was considered I'd have a commercial bias in testing sails.

There was a thing about Ezzy sails at the time, and indeed some poor tests led to the sails being withdrawn from tests in several magazines.
You could argue that the testers didn't know how to rig the Ezzy sails correctly - or you could argue that those sails stood out as different and not always in a good way.
If I'd written about them at the time I'd have pointed out that those sails were cut with a lot broadseaming to give the notable fullness at the luff, and they bucked the trends of sails having batten rotation and with loose leeches at the head.
On most rigs then and now the luff curve is cut to give a deliberate mismatch with the mast bend curve and that mismatched curve results in the sails have battens which sit to one side of the mast when at rest. The wind in the sail then uses that rotation to put fullness in the sail, and that rotation also means when you sheet out the sail depowers or 'feathers' by going flatter.
The lack of rotation in Ezzy rigs meant the sails would not depower on the wave face or when feathered because the luff fullness was always there, like with a cambered sail. The plus side of that broadseaming fullness is that the luff keeps driving forwards even when overpowered.

Fifteen or twenty years on, our wave sails are still mostly rotational but you'll often find a bit of subtle fullness cut in the luff panels via broadseaming. (My Severne Blades and S1s have that whilst still being predominantly rotational sails ).
Ezzy sails remain very popular whist retaining their unique look and they also depower at the head better nowadays. The newer versions also have a different way of depowering at the luff, because they use the old 'soft sail' idea where you take out the full length middle batten(s). So the Takas depower with a fold of cloth that sits behind the mast when the sail is sheeted out or feathered.

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mr love said..
Yes exacly..and to my original point, if you rigged to the Loft to spec on my 3 mast extensions using the printed numbers on them, 1 would rig right, 1 would rig OK and 1 would rig like a pile of s..t.

And this is an epiphany?

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MikeyS said..

forceten said..

MikeyS said..
The Ezzy one is correct. Ooops, it isn't in the photo.

I haven't seen a Ezzy extension for a very long time. of course this is one. For the kids sails

www.ezzy.com/accessories/

Mr Love's point is that different brands of extensions use different "zero" points from which to measure. My point is that, as Bigdaz explains, Ezzy sails have have a system that ends up with the correct downhaul settings irrespective of the extension used. You don't need to use an Ezzy extension for their system to work. I've never used an Ezzy extension. I much prefer it to the VTS on North/Duotone.

I never could quite get the lighting on my North sails as good as in Choco's photo. Maybe it was due to my failing eyesight, impatience, or incompetence. By the way, is that sail downhauled for MAX, or medium, or somewhere in between?

Dear, Mikey S.
your fly is annoying.
All reference to an Ezzy extension , defeats any credibility to your posts.
Ezzy DOESNT make one.
not in the picture, not on the moon, not in the ham, not in a can.

Select to expand quote

forceten said..

AUS 808 said..

PhilUK said..
Its why Ezzy sails have a tape measure on the tack strap and a gauge on the sail to line up level with the bottom of the mast.

Which is attached by Velcro & can be moved once the correct setting is established ??

It is attached. It has lines that indicate the settings to use for different wind strengths . It's set from the factory.
Its calibrated using a Ezzy mast. Using a different mast will alter , quite possibility the setting , velvro, move.brings new meaning tomYMMV.

AUS 808 - I missed your post. Its the gauge that has the velcro, it can be moved up and down the velcro strip sown on the sail. When I 1st got my Lions I had Simmer and Unifiber masts, and iirc they needed slightly different amounts of tension to get the sail to set correctly, so I moved the gauge. When I bought Ezzy masts, I moved the gauge back to the original setting, it is marked in biro on the sail.
I think maybe its harder to set the sail by leech marks only with Ezzy sails as the material is quite stiff so you dont get those neat scalloped lines you do with monofilm sails. They dont have such floppy heads and the leech marks are actually near the leech next to mini battens and not closer the mast.

I'm so confused to why some find it so hard to work out. If the sail says luff 490 and you have a 490 mast set the extension as short as you can, if you have a 460mast set the extension to 30cm. Try it like that then maybe a 1cm either side and see what works for you.
that gauge on the ezzy seems point less why not say downhaul until the bottom of the sail lines up with the bottom of the extension for example. You don't need another marker.

Select to expand quote

forceten said..

MikeyS said..

forceten said..

MikeyS said..
The Ezzy one is correct. Ooops, it isn't in the photo.

I haven't seen a Ezzy extension for a very long time. of course this is one. For the kids sails

www.ezzy.com/accessories/

Mr Love's point is that different brands of extensions use different "zero" points from which to measure. My point is that, as Bigdaz explains, Ezzy sails have have a system that ends up with the correct downhaul settings irrespective of the extension used. You don't need to use an Ezzy extension for their system to work. I've never used an Ezzy extension. I much prefer it to the VTS on North/Duotone.

I never could quite get the lighting on my North sails as good as in Choco's photo. Maybe it was due to my failing eyesight, impatience, or incompetence. By the way, is that sail downhauled for MAX, or medium, or somewhere in between?

Dear, Mikey S.
your fly is annoying.
All reference to an Ezzy extension , defeats any credibility to your posts.
Ezzy DOESNT make one.
not in the picture, not on the moon, not in the ham, not in a can.

My fly IS annoying
With that I'll agree
(I'll tell you not how much
When I went to pee)

My fly IS annoying
I will not dispute
But if it annoys you
Look elsewhere, you brute.

My reference to something
That's not known to man
And does not existeth
In moon, ham or can

Makes me less credible
Not one little bit
Your grievance, take elsewhere
You locked-down bored git.

With much love, MikeyS

Select to expand quote

forceten said..

AUS 808 said..

PhilUK said..
Its why Ezzy sails have a tape measure on the tack strap and a gauge on the sail to line up level with the bottom of the mast.

Which is attached by Velcro & can be moved once the correct setting is established ??

It is attached. It has lines that indicate the settings to use for different wind strengths . It's set from the factory.
Its calibrated using a Ezzy mast. Using a different mast will alter , quite possibility the setting , velvro, move.brings new meaning tomYMMV.

Do you speak English?

AUS808.
PhilUk has the photo, just above depicts David Ezzy, follow the extension up, the mast extension tool / devise is where the visible extension stops. It's white , sort of like a capital T, up side down.
This T is attached to the sail with Velcro, it's moveable. If you use a Ezzy mast their is no need to even think about moving it. If you use other than a Ezzy mast, it may need to be moved to be used fir future use.
you have now people from 2 Continents trying to explain its operation. Which is very simple. When you get an Ezzy sail it will become quite clear.
spell check may have confused you, on my attempt to explain. Thanks for being so hospitable.

MikeyS, your attempt at poetry is comparable to you lack of extension knowledge.
piss poor.

Select to expand quote

Ben1973 said..
I'm so confused to why some find it so hard to work out. If the sail says luff 490 and you have a 490 mast set the extension as short as you can, if you have a 460mast set the extension to 30cm. Try it like that then maybe a 1cm either side and see what works for you.
that gauge on the ezzy seems point less why not say downhaul until the bottom of the sail lines up with the bottom of the extension for example. You don't need another marker.

Not all extensions are marked up exactly. A marked 30cm might not be the same actual length. Even the same brand on different extensions.
Mast from different brands may be all marked as IMCS 25 but the amount of downhaul required to achieve the correct set might be different (as I mentioned).
My Ezzy Panther from 2012 doesn't have the gauge, but I have worked out that the max setting according to the leech dots equates to the bottom of the mast being level with the top of the pulley block on the sail. My 2012 Cheetah doesn't have anything at that point to reference, so I drew a mark. Both are easier to set using the reference points at the mast base than judging dots on the leech.

I think if you haven't got a recent Ezzy with the gauge you might think why do you need one? If you have used one, you think why doesn't everyone do this?

Maybe its just Ezzy sails with tighter leeches & stiffer materials.

Select to expand quote

PhilUK said..

Ben1973 said..
I'm so confused to why some find it so hard to work out. If the sail says luff 490 and you have a 490 mast set the extension as short as you can, if you have a 460mast set the extension to 30cm. Try it like that then maybe a 1cm either side and see what works for you.
that gauge on the ezzy seems point less why not say downhaul until the bottom of the sail lines up with the bottom of the extension for example. You don't need another marker.

Not all extensions are marked up exactly. A marked 30cm might not be the same actual length. Even the same brand on different extensions.
Mast from different brands may be all marked as IMCS 25 but the amount of downhaul required to achieve the correct set might be different (as I mentioned).
My Ezzy Panther from 2012 doesn't have the gauge, but I have worked out that the max setting according to the leech dots equates to the bottom of the mast being level with the top of the pulley block on the sail. My 2012 Cheetah doesn't have anything at that point to reference, so I drew a mark. Both are easier to set using the reference points at the mast base than judging dots on the leech.

I think if you haven't got a recent Ezzy with the gauge you might think why do you need one? If you have used one, you think why doesn't everyone do this?

Maybe its just Ezzy sails with tighter leeches & stiffer materials.

Phil see underlined. perhaps you should got right back to my original post...exactly the point I was making.

Select to expand quote

mr love said..

PhilUK said..

Ben1973 said..
I'm so confused to why some find it so hard to work out. If the sail says luff 490 and you have a 490 mast set the extension as short as you can, if you have a 460mast set the extension to 30cm. Try it like that then maybe a 1cm either side and see what works for you.
that gauge on the ezzy seems point less why not say downhaul until the bottom of the sail lines up with the bottom of the extension for example. You don't need another marker.

Not all extensions are marked up exactly. A marked 30cm might not be the same actual length. Even the same brand on different extensions.
Mast from different brands may be all marked as IMCS 25 but the amount of downhaul required to achieve the correct set might be different (as I mentioned).
My Ezzy Panther from 2012 doesn't have the gauge, but I have worked out that the max setting according to the leech dots equates to the bottom of the mast being level with the top of the pulley block on the sail. My 2012 Cheetah doesn't have anything at that point to reference, so I drew a mark. Both are easier to set using the reference points at the mast base than judging dots on the leech.

I think if you haven't got a recent Ezzy with the gauge you might think why do you need one? If you have used one, you think why doesn't everyone do this?

Maybe its just Ezzy sails with tighter leeches & stiffer materials.

Phil see underlined. perhaps you should got right back to my original post...exactly the point I was making.

I'm all the way with you on this one. I've posted this photo elsewhere. The collars are all level but where you can downhaul to on the pulley blocks are at different levels.

Just measure how much you need on the extension and remember whatever number that matches up to. Or just mark the extension at the right place then you have to remember anything

Select to expand quote

forceten said..
AUS808.
PhilUk has the photo, just above depicts David Ezzy, follow the extension up, the mast extension tool / devise is where the visible extension stops. It's white , sort of like a capital T, up side down.
This T is attached to the sail with Velcro, it's moveable. If you use a Ezzy mast their is no need to even think about moving it. If you use other than a Ezzy mast, it may need to be moved to be used fir future use.
you have now people from 2 Continents trying to explain its operation. Which is very simple. When you get an Ezzy sail it will become quite clear.
spell check may have confused you, on my attempt to explain. Thanks for being so hospitable.

I know how it works, I was explaining that it is movable so not guaranteed to be in the correct position.

You said "velvro, move.brings new meaning tomYMMV" Is this English?

Select to expand quote

MikeyS said..

forceten said..

MikeyS said..

forceten said..

MikeyS said..
The Ezzy one is correct. Ooops, it isn't in the photo.

I haven't seen a Ezzy extension for a very long time. of course this is one. For the kids sails

www.ezzy.com/accessories/

Mr Love's point is that different brands of extensions use different "zero" points from which to measure. My point is that, as Bigdaz explains, Ezzy sails have have a system that ends up with the correct downhaul settings irrespective of the extension used. You don't need to use an Ezzy extension for their system to work. I've never used an Ezzy extension. I much prefer it to the VTS on North/Duotone.

I never could quite get the lighting on my North sails as good as in Choco's photo. Maybe it was due to my failing eyesight, impatience, or incompetence. By the way, is that sail downhauled for MAX, or medium, or somewhere in between?

Dear, Mikey S.
your fly is annoying.
All reference to an Ezzy extension , defeats any credibility to your posts.
Ezzy DOESNT make one.
not in the picture, not on the moon, not in the ham, not in a can.

My fly IS annoying
With that I'll agree
(I'll tell you not how much
When I went to pee)

My fly IS annoying
I will not dispute
But if it annoys you
Look elsewhere, you brute.

My reference to something
That's not known to man
And does not existeth
In moon, ham or can

Makes me less credible
Not one little bit
Your grievance, take elsewhere
You locked-down bored git.

With much love, MikeyS

too much time , not enough sailing?

Jeez, after reading this thread, it's no wonder people end up kiting instead.

Select to expand quote

808
you will need to pay attention to , me said , you said ,Phil said.

PhilUK said..
Its why Ezzy sails have a tape measure on the tack strap and a gauge on the sail to line up level with the bottom of the mast.

###You wrote this ::: Which is attached by Velcro & can be moved once the correct setting is established ?####

me I say : The tack strap and the extension measuring devices referred in Phils post above as a guage are two separate, things. The strap is attached. The extension device ,guage , which sets downhaul, is on Velcro. It is set at the factory, in Sri Lanka, using a Ezzy mast, no need to move it. If ,IF, the sail is being used with a mast other than a Ezzy, the downhaul device guage , will likely not be positioned correctly, if this is the case, the sail will need to be tuned using visual clues. Once accomplished , the moveable Velcro device , can be relocated to the desired location.

Based on your question about moving the Velcro ,attached guage, you Really don't understand it's function.

Select to expand quote

You 808,wrote this:

Do you speak English? ###

Me I said to myself out loud , well,I speak English yes, but you can't hear me.

Me I wrote this##

It is attached. It has lines that indicate the settings to use for different wind strengths . It's set from the factory.
Its calibrated using a Ezzy mast. Using a different mast will alter , quite possibility the setting , velvro, move.brings new meaning tomYMMV. ###

Yes I agree this is a bit of a mumblo jumbo paragraph, Velcro ,likes to get spell checked to velvro, WTF.

,so anyway this just above is the entire post

not just the part you cut out.

Spelling VELVRO, should have been VELCRO. Most could figure that was the case .

I probably assumed, that alter, and move , I could cut out a few words,

SHOULD have written,

Using a different mast will alter the setting, requiring the Velcro guage to be moved.

AND, This brings new meaning to YMMV, which is Your Mileage May Vary.

I looked this over, it makes sense to me, it's passed my bedtime, so my eyes are tired.

Select to expand quote

Faff said..
Jeez, after reading this thread, it's no wonder people end up kiting instead.

It's not Rocket science, but a slow news day.i agree kiting is mentally less exhausting.

Three Extensions from one and the same company, all on 10cm.
Never trust Numbers.

Good one, the bottom is a SDM, but 10 is 10.

Select to expand quote

onefoot said..
Three Extensions from one and the same company, all on 10cm.
Never trust Numbers.

The top one is 10 years old(or more) & it was a known QC error(at the time) which was fixed on the next gen.

The bottom 2 are actually correct & measure the same, even though one is RDM & one is SDM. The RDM collar is not in place properly & the bottom(10cm) mark is not present due to the flare tube.( they evidently can't place graphics on the flared portion)

Select to expand quote

forceten said..

You 808,wrote this:

Do you speak English? ###

Me I said to myself out loud , well,I speak English yes, but you can't hear me.

Me I wrote this##

It is attached. It has lines that indicate the settings to use for different wind strengths . It's set from the factory.
Its calibrated using a Ezzy mast. Using a different mast will alter , quite possibility the setting , velvro, move.brings new meaning tomYMMV. ###

Yes I agree this is a bit of a mumblo jumbo paragraph, Velcro ,likes to get spell checked to velvro, WTF.

,so anyway this just above is the entire post

not just the part you cut out.

Spelling VELVRO, should have been VELCRO. Most could figure that was the case .

I probably assumed, that alter, and move , I could cut out a few words,

SHOULD have written,

Using a different mast will alter the setting, requiring the Velcro guage to be moved.

AND, This brings new meaning to YMMV, which is Your Mileage May Vary.

I looked this over, it makes sense to me, it's passed my bedtime, so my eyes are tired.

I'm guessing your real name could be Donald.
Ease up on the self medication mate.

Maybe Donald Duck

Select to expand quote

forceten said..

Faff said..
Jeez, after reading this thread, it's no wonder people end up kiting instead.

It's not Rocket science, but a slow news day.i agree kiting is mentally less exhausting.

You may think it's funny, I think it's a tragedy. I have a friend who used to be an instructor. He said that he would instruct people how to rig, how the sail should have shape, etc... A month later he would see them on the beach with no downhaul, massive outhaul, etc., as if they'd learnt nothing. He reckons that many people just can't visualise and that as long as all you have to do to correctly rig a kite is to "pump to X PSI", windsurfing has no hope. Then I saw this:



But it's still just one thing to tune versus downhaul, outhaul, batten tension, harness line positioning, boom height (affects outhaul). Extra difficulty points if you have to extend the top of the sail. Mixing masts and sails is another can of worms. I rigged my sails like crap for the first 2 years (way too much outhaul). Frankly I don't even know if I have it all correct now. So the simpler the industry can make it, the better.

...''So the simpler the industry can make it, the better"... The more idiots the better as well imho