Looking for advice on rigging NP Speedsters... Have tried everything, but just can't get a comfortable feeling on this sail.

Sail is rigged on the recommended mast (NP TPX 100 RDM). In these photos, downhaul is to the NP guide, outhaul about half way on the recommended range. Leech flop seams about right, but luff seems ridiculously tight & flat.

More downhaul, sail is too twitchy, less downhaul sail is too overpowered. Have tried full range of outhaul as well as moving harness lines.

Our local conditions are pretty choppy... Maybe this is a sail just better suited to flat water blasting ?

Any thoughts appreciated !?

It does loo a bit flat around the boom area without any wind in it, but if you press down on the luff to simulate it being filled with wind in use does it fill out?

The battens don't overlap the mast at all (unlike most non-cam sails I've used in the past), in fact the closest any batten sits is about an inch behind the mast. It does fill out a little when the luff is pushed down though.

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RobJD said..
Looking for advice on rigging NP Speedsters... Have tried everything, but just can't get a comfortable feeling on this sail.

Sail is rigged on the recommended mast (NP TPX 100 RDM). In these photos, downhaul is to the NP guide, outhaul about half way on the recommended range. Leech flop seams about right, but luff seems ridiculously tight & flat.

More downhaul, sail is too twitchy, less downhaul sail is too overpowered. Have tried full range of outhaul as well as moving harness lines.

Our local conditions are pretty choppy... Maybe this is a sail just better suited to flat water blasting ?

Any thoughts appreciated !?

Have you tried neutral outhaul? - just enough tension so the clew is not loose?

and possible fine tuning the batten on N and R (Neilpryde on the luff) may be over tensioned a tad

Yep agree, will try less outhaul & tweak battens.

Did confirm it is normal for the battens not to overlap the mast on this sail.

Think it's just very different to what I'm used to and will take some perseverance.

Probably not ideally suited to our local bumpy conditions either !

Given that you found the sail twitchy with more downhaul, it could indicate you actually don't apply enough downhaul.

Hard to see on the photos but it looks the loose leech is not even close to the furthest white dot so this also indicates you haven't got enough downhaul.

Have you tried giving it more, like at least 2-4 cm just to see if that helps? I wouldn't expect a sail with too much downhaul to feel twitchy at all so it might just need more downhaul.

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ptsf1111 said..
Given that you found the sail twitchy with more downhaul, it could indicate you actually don't apply enough downhaul.

Hard to see on the photos but it looks the loose leech is not even close to the furthest white dot so this also indicates you haven't got enough downhaul.

Have you tried giving it more, like at least 2-4 cm just to see if that helps? I wouldn't expect a sail with too much downhaul to feel twitchy at all so it might just need more downhaul.

Agreed. Im looking at the markers on the sail and thinking it needs more downhaul (depending on the conditions obviously). Id also agree that it should be less twitchy with more downhaul. It will be twitchy with more outhaul imo.

OK, will try even more downhaul, but a bit less outhaul. It's going to be super flat in the luff !

Appreciate the advice, thanks !

About 30 centimetres of the inner monofilm luff of my 2016 Maui TR 6.3 ripped last week and now none of the cams rotate at all.

I removed two of them but the other two that rotated best i still need to carry a hammer with me to get them to rotate.

Going to remove them and give the sail another try.

It still felt really fast with only two cams but lots of loose material now around the luff area and it does not twist off as good.

Will let you know soon my feedback.

To me it could use a little more downhaul? And I'd be looking to set out haul to neutral, maybe just slightly pulled on. I'd try that on the water before maybe tweaking batten tension

Could the mast be out of spec because it looks odd. or it's batten tension which look underdone. Loose batten tension can make sail less stable.

Can you borrow another pryde mast off a mate and check bend curve

Batten tension seems to be all over the place. The top batten looks overtensioned while some of the lower ones are undertensioned?

I do not have any of the speedster sails myself. But I wouldn't trust the markings for the floppy leach too much, it can be really hard to see sometimes. Especially when the sail is lying flat/stationary on the ground, like it is in the picture. I would recommend to release the outhaul completely in order to see what happens to the battens at the boom height. Tune on the downhaul while watching what happens to the battens near the mast (at boom height without any outhaul attached). Normally the battens should overlap or at least touch the mast when there is no outhaul. Then use the outhaul setting to adjust for power, the sail should normally touch the boom while sailing, usually up to about the harness line position on the leeward side.

From the pictures alone, I would recommend less outhaul (it can likely be set neutral, i.e. no pulling needed, just attach it) and slightly less downhaul or keep it as is, depending on what happens when the outhaul is released. Plus adjust to correct batten tension, i.e. more below the boom and less (nothing) above the boom.

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Gestalt said..
Could the mast be out of spec because it looks odd. or it's batten tension which look underdone. Loose batten tension can make sail less stable.

Can you borrow another pryde mast off a mate and check bend curve

Interesting suggestion... I thought the same so tried it on an NP SPX RDM 70 - Same result.

Actually think it might be the sail / panels which are what's out of spec, & / or the panels haven't been stitched correctly.

What further supports this, is the lowest batten screw has run out of adjustment, yet still looks under tensioned (ie. batten to short). Whereas the upper battens which look over tensioned have almost no adjustment applied to the batten screws (ie. battens to long). It's difficult to see in the photos, but the sail also has some odd vertical creases as well.

Hard to believe a non-cam windsurf sail could get so technical, but could a factory production fault be conceivable ?

Check that the batten hasn't pushed through the end of the batten pocket.

I don't think that it is a production "fault", it is simply the level of production accuracy that they keep.

You can cut off a piece of the battens that are too long (probably max 1 cm or similar) and use that on the battens that are too short. Some sail-manufacturers will even provide some short trim-pieces for battens with new sails, for the same purpose.

Don't focus on the marked trim points for the loose leech, they are only a guide and can be poorly placed from the factory.

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RobJD said..

Gestalt said..
Could the mast be out of spec because it looks odd. or it's batten tension which look underdone. Loose batten tension can make sail less stable.

Can you borrow another pryde mast off a mate and check bend curve

Interesting suggestion... I thought the same so tried it on an NP SPX RDM 70 - Same result.

Actually think it might be the sail / panels which are what's out of spec, & / or the panels haven't been stitched correctly.

What further supports this, is the lowest batten screw has run out of adjustment, yet still looks under tensioned (ie. batten to short). Whereas the upper battens which look over tensioned have almost no adjustment applied to the batten screws (ie. battens to long). It's difficult to see in the photos, but the sail also has some odd vertical creases as well.

Hard to believe a non-cam windsurf sail could get so technical, but could a factory production fault be conceivable ?

Yeah the creases do look odd. Sounds like there is something odd with the battens too. IMAX and Kris's advice worth working through. Also can you confirm batten length with np?

did you buy the sail second hand? Could battens have been adjusted, modified or the adjusters not set up right?
could be an error from the factory. Prydes usually pretty good but **** happens. The batten at the boom looks like it's the wrong taper for the sail

kind of agree with you the panel wrinkles do look odd. Makes me wonder what the history of the sail is.

Purchased brand new !Feel a bit disappointed, the other brands I've had were always just a case of following the numbers on the bag, setting, and forgetting !

I'm gonna ask the Dumb question.

are you turning the adjuster the right direction.

Panel tension does look odd. I've sailed with Neilpryde for 15years and never had an issue with many year models in their RSracing sails.
The only thing I would suggest is confirm you're tensioning battens the right way. And sometimes they can turn but not actually adjust occasionally can break those. Check to see the batten hasn't been pushed through into luff. And if all else fails. See if you can find batten lengths are correct. I have had 2 sails with one batten that was too short by 10mm and another with 10mm too long on the main batten across boom. If they are the bat cam sleeve tensioners you could place a piece inside batten then push tensioner back over it'll give it a bit more length to it.
I would be also confident being a new sail rigging to specs would be fairly close to good. Give or take conditions and stretching in after a few sessions. Their leach marker guides are pretty accurate most of the time with Neilpryde as a starting guide and then fine tune to suit as you use it.

Ive always told myself better to slightly go under tension battens. In the top half of sail than over tension them. The bottom I try to remove wrinkles as it doesn't require as much movement. Especially on a brand new sail until it stretches in. Then snug up wrinkles in panels with tension. some wrinkles are better to put up with than over tensioning tightening up the sail.

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Gestalt said..
I'm gonna ask the Dumb question.

are you turning the adjuster the right direction.

HaHa, of that I am certain !

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izaak said..
Panel tension does look odd. I've sailed with Neilpryde for 15years and never had an issue with many year models in their RSracing sails.
The only thing I would suggest is confirm you're tensioning battens the right way. And sometimes they can turn but not actually adjust occasionally can break those. Check to see the batten hasn't been pushed through into luff. And if all else fails. See if you can find batten lengths are correct. I have had 2 sails with one batten that was too short by 10mm and another with 10mm too long on the main batten across boom. If they are the bat cam sleeve tensioners you could place a piece inside batten then push tensioner back over it'll give it a bit more length to it.
I would be also confident being a new sail rigging to specs would be fairly close to good. Give or take conditions and stretching in after a few sessions. Their leach marker guides are pretty accurate most of the time with Neilpryde as a starting guide and then fine tune to suit as you use it.

Ive always told myself better to slightly go under tension battens. In the top half of sail than over tension them. The bottom I try to remove wrinkles as it doesn't require as much movement. Especially on a brand new sail until it stretches in. Then snug up wrinkles in panels with tension. some wrinkles are better to put up with than over tensioning tightening up the sail.

Yep, really good points, thanks !

Pretty much as you said, I adjusted the battens above the boom just enough to take the pocket wrinkles out (very minimal, if anything at all). Below the boom required a lot more tension adjustment because of the way the sail loads between the mast base and boom end. Per my earlier post, think this sail is just a lot different to anything I have had previously or that I'm familiar with. Will persevere !!

I'd go back to the place of purchase and have them fix it for you or otherwise replace the sail if they can't and then they can deal with NP.

All feedback well received with thanks !

The upshot is the sail is feeling much better after the following adjustments:
15mm more downhaul.
20mmm less outhaul.
Multiple batten adjustments.

Still somewhat sceptical of the build accuracy as have never had to spend so much time trying to get a sail right.
The final adjustments also don't match the supplier guide / numbers on the bag.
The panels do look to be getting more "even" as the sail stretches a bit & beds in.

I had V8s and they all rigged with +2 down haul and pulleys together. Adjusted everything else with OH. I really liked the HellCats which are now the Speedsters.

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Gestalt said..
Could the mast be out of spec because it looks odd. or it's batten tension which look underdone. Loose batten tension can make sail less stable.

Can you borrow another pryde mast off a mate and check bend curve

Agreed. Also factory could have fitted wrong battens.

RobJD: If you can borrow a friends constant curve mast, rig it and see how it looks, or rigging a smaller mask with a long extension etc. Worth a try. Freeride sail (or wave sail) should be in the ball park if not rigged properly. But completely out- of-whack normally means hardware compatibility IMO.

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jn1 said..
RobJD: If you can borrow a friends constant curve mast, rig it and see how it looks, or rigging a smaller mask with a long extension etc. Worth a try. Freeride sail (or wave sail) should be in the ball park if not rigged properly. But completely out- of-whack normally means hardware compatibility IMO.

Why use a constant curve in a Neil Pryde sail? They need flex top.

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RobJD said..
The upshot is the sail is feeling much better after the following adjustments:
15mm more downhaul.
20mmm less outhaul.
Multiple batten adjustments.

That is what I would have suggested too. Maybe even less outhaul.

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DI7 said..

jn1 said..
RobJD: If you can borrow a friends constant curve mast, rig it and see how it looks, or rigging a smaller mask with a long extension etc. Worth a try. Freeride sail (or wave sail) should be in the ball park if not rigged properly. But completely out- of-whack normally means hardware compatibility IMO.

Why use a constant curve in a Neil Pryde sail? They need flex top.

RobJD said..
The upshot is the sail is feeling much better after the following adjustments:
15mm more downhaul.
20mmm less outhaul.
Multiple batten adjustments.

That is what I would have suggested too. Maybe even less outhaul.

Windsurfing gear has very wide tolerances. I've brought sails using the recommended mast, but have been completely out of whack. I then use different type of mast, and sail sets properly, rigs by the numbers and is transformed. It's worth a try.

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jn1 said..

DI7 said..

jn1 said..
RobJD: If you can borrow a friends constant curve mast, rig it and see how it looks, or rigging a smaller mask with a long extension etc. Worth a try. Freeride sail (or wave sail) should be in the ball park if not rigged properly. But completely out- of-whack normally means hardware compatibility IMO.

Why use a constant curve in a Neil Pryde sail? They need flex top.

RobJD said..
The upshot is the sail is feeling much better after the following adjustments:
15mm more downhaul.
20mmm less outhaul.
Multiple batten adjustments.

That is what I would have suggested too. Maybe even less outhaul.

Windsurfing gear has very wide tolerances. I've brought sails using the recommended mast, but have been completely out of whack. I then use different type of mast, and sail sets properly, rigs by the numbers and is transformed. It's worth a try.

Yes, wide tolerances. Including slightly different mast length etc, not each sail panel glued and stitched together exactly the same way, ...
But why are some of you guys so keen on rigging "by numbers" (on the sail bag).

E.g. Duotone is quite clear that you should not. And writes why that is so.

BTW: Before spending too much time on tuning I use a sail about 3x 2 h at least making it wet several times.

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DI7 said..

jn1 said..

DI7 said..

jn1 said..
RobJD: If you can borrow a friends constant curve mast, rig it and see how it looks, or rigging a smaller mask with a long extension etc. Worth a try. Freeride sail (or wave sail) should be in the ball park if not rigged properly. But completely out- of-whack normally means hardware compatibility IMO.

Why use a constant curve in a Neil Pryde sail? They need flex top.

RobJD said..
The upshot is the sail is feeling much better after the following adjustments:
15mm more downhaul.
20mmm less outhaul.
Multiple batten adjustments.

That is what I would have suggested too. Maybe even less outhaul.

Windsurfing gear has very wide tolerances. I've brought sails using the recommended mast, but have been completely out of whack. I then use different type of mast, and sail sets properly, rigs by the numbers and is transformed. It's worth a try.

Yes, wide tolerances. Including slightly different mast length etc, not each sail panel glued and stitched together exactly the same way, ...
But why are some of you guys so keen on rigging "by numbers" (on the sail bag).

E.g. Duotone is quite clear that you should not. And writes why that is so.

BTW: Before spending too much time on tuning I use a sail about 3x 2 h at least making it wet several times.

Totally agree about the numbers. Only a couple of my sails have been what the numbers say. Most are out and some a lot out. Definitely learn to rig to cues to how you want the sail to be like. And the only way is to experiment.

I have a sail with another sails specs on it. Mast boom & extn all wrong. Great sail tho now I know the numbers