I would like a recommendation for a high wind slalom sail.

I sail a Mistral Slalom (112Lt) and an old extreme slalom (85Lt) when it really starts to crank. My smallest sail is a Naish redline 6.5M which is used in up to 25 knots. It is a great sail. Light, easy to use, doesn’t fill up with water when I am doing a lot of swimming etc. It has two roller cams, but I wouldn’t say it’s a camber induced sail as we know them to be. As a result, I am reluctant to get a full camber induced sail for ease of use and reliability in strong winds.

I am thinking I need a 5.5M. (22 - 30 Knots) However, I suspect a wave or a free ride sail will not perform for this wind strength or purpose.

Any suggestions?

It would make sense to stick to the same model sail if your 6.5 performs well?

And why no freeride?
I would think that once you are at 25kn unless you are a diehard GPS speedster, control is becoming more important. Most people put away the slalom gear and want more forgiving freeride / FSW stuff once it is 30kn.

A no cam stable freeride sail would be just the ticket I'd think. Same brand so it works on your mast

A secondhand Naish Sprint, or Mauisails Switch, or Severne NCX (latter two have similar mast curve) would probably be schweet.

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Sunnyboy said..

As a result, I am reluctant to get a full camber induced sail for ease of use and reliability in strong winds.

With a fully cambered sail, what you gain in stability you give away in ease of use. Literally, you can't slow down on full race sails when you are overpowered... you unsheet the sail when you try to brake before a gybe and all that happens is you reduce the downforce on your board and it starts to fly away and makes it harder. On a twin-cam or no cam sail, when you sheet out you slow down...they depower like a wavesail. It makes it a LOT easier to gybe and slow down when you get out of control. I actually think you can enjoy twin-cam freeride sails in high wind more than a full race sail as the newer ones have very good stability.

Where you will get the BEST control/ease of use out of your sail is improving the mast. If you can warrant outlaying the cash on a 100% carbon mast for your small freeride it makes a huge difference; especially when you are in choppy conditions and the top of the sail is bouncing around a lot.

I don't know Sean. The only twin cam I've owned was a Tushingham Raptor 5.4m.

It was very fast and super light but it had two clear limitations.

Upwind of a reach it was so much slower than a fully crammed race sail,though across and off the wind it was similar.

And in a really big gust,I found with a fully crammed sail it was easier to keep accelerating!

Fully crammed race sails have generally one more batten which significantly helps to stabilise the leech when you over downhaul for strong conditions.

On a side note I have found that modern race sails less than 5.5m have nearly become extinct even in 30 knots.

You just increase the downhaul to get a radical twist off and the sail has the power of a 4.0m

I have been trying a lot of different sails of late. The problem with 2 cam or no cams is that if you sail them beyond their wind range or in gusty conditions they become unstable and I tend to stack more due to fatigue and the fact the draught is moving around. I find a race sail much better in flat water.

However in chop/ocean I can feel myself getting out of control and can't slow down on a race sail as Sean says and since I don't have the skill to hold the board on the water I stack as well.

So basically what sort of water are you sailing in?

Wasn't there a slalom race in Maui a couple of years ago where it was 35 knots plus and one of the pros pulled a wave sail out of his van and won with it and a small slalom board?

I've just retruned from Lake George, where I sailed on a number of days in 25kts with a North RAM 5.7. The RAM has three camber inducers. It performed very well. Other 3 Cam sails worth considering include:
- Severn OD
- KA Koncept

I also used a Naish Bullet 6.4 (20 to 25kts) and 7.0 (18 to 23kts) which are also a 3 Cam sails. They performed OK but became a bit of a handful when overpowered.

I used a Loft RB 7.8 which is a 4 Cam sail and performed really well in 15 to 20kts

Have you considered a Sailworks Hucker (no-cam) 5.6m or 6.6m ? The Hucker has a high centre of effort and is fuller in the draft profile. Leech twist is far less than other sails and with a greater luff curve is feel more firmer.

The Hucker 5.6m is still comfortable in 34kts on flat water, whilst the 6.6m is more at home in 23 - 27kts on a 94lt board.

For rough hi wind slalom conditions I use an old 5.2 no cam sail. It's a NP Saber, it's a fairly stiff 6 battens ( from memory ). This is the one in my avatar. Btw this was 25-35 knt day in Botany Bay.
I bought this sail in Maui about 10 years ago for the Maui race series, this is what they recommended and what most of the fleet was using. I've kept the sail because it works so well when I I need to go fast ( safely) in rough hi wind conditions.
I really like this sail because it will take a lot of down haul and the leach twists of nicely. I think it was the way they built the older NP sails, very high skin tension.
I use full on race sails 7m up and free race below that. I've had my 7m in conditions up to 25knots, the sail handles it well but I don't !

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SeanAUS120 said...

Sunnyboy said..

As a result, I am reluctant to get a full camber induced sail for ease of use and reliability in strong winds.

With a fully cambered sail, what you gain in stability you give away in ease of use. Literally, you can't slow down on full race sails when you are overpowered... you unsheet the sail when you try to brake before a gybe and all that happens is you reduce the downforce on your board and it starts to fly away and makes it harder. On a twin-cam or no cam sail, when you sheet out you slow down...they depower like a wavesail. It makes it a LOT easier to gybe and slow down when you get out of control. I actually think you can enjoy twin-cam freeride sails in high wind more than a full race sail as the newer ones have very good stability.

Where you will get the BEST control/ease of use out of your sail is improving the mast. If you can warrant outlaying the cash on a 100% carbon mast for your small freeride it makes a huge difference; especially when you are in choppy conditions and the top of the sail is bouncing around a lot.

What he said^^^^

After nearly killing myself on my small slalom kit in nuclear conditions, on a number of occasions (the doctors tell me there's not much going on between my ears), I've slowly come to to the conclusion that unless I'm doing speed runs, or sailing on dead flat water, the fsw gear is a lot more fun and far less lethal in 25 plus knts.

I would look at getting maybe a perfomance no cam sail (of the appropriate size) or fsw gear if you're not a speed junkie or Antoine Albeau.

Edit: I think I just said what Mark said

in flat water like lake george this year i used Maui TRX 5.9 10 days in a row when it was blowing anyhing from 18 knots up to 30+ knots - Awesome power and control in stong gusts.
that being said i tried using it last Sunday at botany with the 40 knot gusts and the 2-3 foot swell and i got smashed - had a few out of control runs which were just plain scary - as sean said this gear doesnt go slow and is really hard to slow down which is really bad in big chop.

I agree that in 30+ winds unless you have super flat water a FSW board with a wave or free ride sail would be good - I have a NP 5.1 hellcat which is nice for those out of control days but even then i need to go find a 4.7 wave sail for rough conditions.

ive got a 4/7 north ice , ill swap you for my fins

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petermac33 said..
I don't know Sean. The only twin cam I've owned was a Tushingham Raptor 5.4m.

It was very fast and super light but it had two clear limitations.

Upwind of a reach it was so much slower than a fully crammed race sail,though across and off the wind it was similar.

And in a really big gust,I found with a fully crammed sail it was easier to keep accelerating!

Fully crammed race sails have generally one more batten which significantly helps to stabilise the leech when you over downhaul for strong conditions.

On a side note I have found that modern race sails less than 5.5m have nearly become extinct even in 30 knots.

You just increase the downhaul to get a radical twist off and the sail has the power of a 4.0m

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SeanAUS120 said..
With a fully cambered sail, what you gain in stability you give away in ease of use. Literally, you can't slow down on full race sails when you are overpowered... you unsheet the sail when you try to brake before a gybe and all that happens is you reduce the downforce on your board and it starts to fly away and makes it harder. On a twin-cam or no cam sail, when you sheet out you slow down...they depower like a wavesail. It makes it a LOT easier to gybe and slow down when you get out of control. I actually think you can enjoy twin-cam freeride sails in high wind more than a full race sail as the newer ones have very good stability.

Where you will get the BEST control/ease of use out of your sail is improving the mast. If you can warrant outlaying the cash on a 100% carbon mast for your small freeride it makes a huge difference; especially when you are in choppy conditions and the top of the sail is bouncing around a lot.

This is so true. I was out last weekend in winds gusting 45kts on short wind blown chop 30-45cm with a 5.2m North WARP. Sailing out against the chop was fine, however, sailing in over the back of the chop was a truly terrifying experience, with no way to control the speed. Sheeting out resulted in a wipe out every time, so the alternatives were sail in not hooked in, and out of the straps (I resorted to this a couple of times) or sail in fully powered, expecting a massive crash at any time (Yes I did have a couple of those). However, what those conditions do is force you to tune your kit better, make sure that you have the right fin, harness lines setup properly, adjust your stance to improve control etc - I feel that I really learn lots in those types of conditions.

Does a cambered race sail make sense in those conditions - not really, I use one so that I can get great GPS speeds, but for real world use (even slalom racing) a twin cam or no cam free race is probably a better bet below 6m and it will probably give you 95% of the performance of a race sail.

Just a word of warning though, last year I broke my wrist in these conditions, luckily my recent outing only resulted in painful ribs.

In winds gusting to 45 knots......any sail slalom or free-ride sail is going to be extremely difficult to control.....short of it being a 3.3m.

I don't sail if the wind is averaging more than 35 knots on my 5.5m though i can handle an occasional gust more than this.

For me,more battens and cams make it less taxing on the arms.

From my limited experience of using a wave sail (4.2 in 25 knots) the centre of power was moving all over the place and it tired me out fast,especially my arms.

There is a 5.9m Maui slalom sail for sale over East which should be perfect for 22-30 knots.

A 5.5m sail is a hundred times easier to hold than a 6.2m sail in strong winds---but a 4.0m is not any easier to hold than a 5.5m.

Unless of course the wind is consistently blowing above 30 knots,which is hardly ever.

what? Seriously need to look at your rigging. All the wavesails ive used in last 9 years have been perfectly stable & much easier to use in extreme conditions than race sail. But you dont lock them down like a race sail & you take the right size sail for conditions rather than sail 3 sizes too big. Alot of the extra stability isnt needed as you've got masses of power to get you back upwind & arent pointing lots where lots of cams & battens are needed. Unless sailing flat spots due to chop your speed is down so you're not dragging even a good wavesail out of it's efficiency & creating control problems that way. Sure also if you a gps-er a race sail is more predictable power.

OP listen to sean

Thanks for all the advice and feedback.

Typically most of my sailing is done on Sydney Harbour, Botany or similar. So not the flattest conditions when the breeze gets up. Therefore control is pretty important.

I like the idea of a free race set up of around 5.5m and now have to decide between a twin cam and no cam sail. i.e. Hellcat vs Hornet or NCX vs Turbo. (That is if I can find one). However after reading all the marketing fluff I am not sure if I can differentiate between the two styles.

Would one have a wider wind range?

Would one hold its shape at higher speed etc?

The two brands you mention have different mast bends. What sail you buy may depend on the masts you already have or intend to get in the future. Furthermore, you might like to think about what brand of mast suits best for rough water and high winds sailing in terms of breakage resistance. There are brands I wouldn't go near if going further than 500 metres out.